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As many nerd ballers are well aware, a new build has emerged in the PvT match-up as of late. This build is essentially a Forge fast expand geared towards providing Toss a strong economy as well as the potential to get ahead on upgrades relatively quickly. The first time I saw the build was this most recent season of GSL during the Code S round of 32 matches. The most recent example of the build I saw was with HerO in his last two matches with MVP.
I'm wondering, aside from the more obvious and basic reasons, what are the benefits provided by this opening? Additionally, Artosis has mentioned the existence of something like 3 variations on this build. Are there any Protoss players out there who have a basic grasp of the build order? If so, would you mind providing a basic run down with some notes on scouting, responses, and tech paths etc?
I'm interested in not only learning the build, but learning why the build has emerged and what it offers. When I have the time I plan on rewatching the matches where the build was utilized so that I can try and get a basic understanding of the build. However, until then I would like to pick the brains of those of you who have a higher understanding the game/build.
tldr; This season we have seen a new kind of FFE build in PvT. What does this build offer and what is the basic build order? What prompted Toss players to develop this build?
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I feel like this leaves you more vulnerable to elevator timings. Since you're delaying your gateway, helions and other things will create more trouble for you if the terran just decides to go straight for factory/starport. I think that you can be safe against everything using just nex->gateway, save something like a helion drop.
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I've seen this build used on ladder a few times (albeit it probably is a crappy unrefined version), but all I did was put down double gas as soon as i scout it (if I haven't already) and go for a straight shot into starport. I've been able to succeed with just ONE drop ship full of marines/marauders with stim. I'm not sure how viable it is unless you have like perfect control/micro like the guys in gsl can pull off.
But I'm sure if people experiment with it there can be defenses created against these specific early drop timings.
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Well first of all I think it is better to clearly label the build what it actually is so as to not confuse people, which is Nexus -> Forge, because there is no reason to go Forge -> Nexus like there is against Zerg. That's why I'm not a fan of labeling it a "FFE." The obvious advantage of course a better economy via the nexus first. The other obvious advantage is access to upgrades earlier, which hedges the need to go double forge somewhat.
From there I haven't seen any particular set build. I've seen Oz go fast 3rd, seen twilight, seen hero go robo. It's just an economic opening, with its main drawback being similar to the drawbacks faced by FFE from PvZ, which is slower tech. I'm not sure if terrans are completely adjusted the what and how much they can get away with in terms of economic or tech greed when they spot a Nexus -> forge opening from protoss. Personally I'm staying clear of the build until I see it a bit more and terrans have time to adjust.
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On April 20 2012 15:17 Skyro wrote:
Well first of all I think it is better to clearly label the build what it actually is so as to not confuse people, which is Nexus -> Forge, because there is no reason to go Forge -> Nexus like there is against Zerg. That's why I'm not a fan of labeling it a "FFE." The obvious advantage of course a better economy via the nexus first. The other obvious advantage is access to upgrades earlier, which hedges the need to go double forge somewhat.
From there I haven't seen any particular set build. I've seen Oz go fast 3rd, seen twilight, seen hero go robo. It's just an economic opening, with its main drawback being similar to the drawbacks faced by FFE from PvZ, which is slower tech. I'm not sure if terrans are completely adjusted the what and how much they can get away with in terms of economic or tech greed when they spot a Nexus -> forge opening from protoss. Personally I'm staying clear of the build until I see it a bit more and terrans have time to adjust.
Indeed, I don't really have any intentions of implementing the build just yet. I wanted to try and understand it a bit more before doing so, and I simply wanted to take a gander at the basic build order being utilized to help facilitate my understanding and what it offers.
I was unsure as to whether the forge was actually being thrown first or if it was a variation on a nexus first build. Its interesting because I had thoughts of dropping a forge and gateway when going nexus first as when I do it I noticed there is a brief window where one has the minerals to do so.
What does everyone think of the trade off offered by this build? Certainly you get an economic boost in addition to faster upgrades but is the delay to tech worth these two advantages? Of course it depends on what the opponent is doing but in a general sense, given the fact that Protoss is essentially required to combat Terran and their emphasis on ranged units with higher tech/AoE damage dealing units, is it worth it?
Also, I know Oz used this build in addition to HerO in the most recent GSL matches. Where else can I see the build being used? I heard that someone used it in NASL recently...I think it was SlayerS Alicia...can anyone confirm? Thanks
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Blazinghand
United States25550 Posts
This build is a 15 nexus build. It goes for a 15 nexus, followed by a forge and typically a single cannon at the front of the natural. I've run into it a couple of times on Shakuras Plateau, a map where Nex-first builds are typically used.
This build is best contrasted with the Nexus First -> Gateway builds that are typical in TvP.
Advantages:
You get quicker upgrades
Cannon makes you fairly safe
Disadvantages:
Later warpgate and later advanced structures
Gives up early Stalker-based map control:
--Terran able to 1 rax expo expo
--Scouting limited
I find this sort of opening works best with gateway heavy builds (quick upgrades into templar tech) as opposed to the sort of colossus-based play that likes to get the robo earlier.
As a terran my typical response to this build is either to make a quick third base (1 rax expo expo) or to try to half-ass a 6rax allin.
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Aren't early Marauders pretty good against this? I would think, with the cannon investment and low unit count.
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This build only works because it's very good against gasless expands from Terran as Marines in the early stages of the game without Medivacs or Stim are very weak against Photon Cannons.
a 2 rax concussive opening or a banshee opening will punish this very hard as the Cannon is obviously very imobile.
That said, with gasless expands being the predominant standard TvP opening at the moment it does make this build somewhat viable.
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In my opinion, I think it's a very weak opening since the protoss is basically telegraphing to the terran that there will be no early aggression.
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Blazinghand
United States25550 Posts
On April 20 2012 18:02 Azzur wrote:
In my opinion, I think it's a very weak opening since the protoss is basically telegraphing to the terran that there will be no early aggression.
I think the optimal response for a terran going for a gasless FE is just to take an amazingly quick 3rd CC. I personally lack the mechanics to really make something like this work, but the basic theorycraft reasoning I give to low-level toss who ask why they can't FFE in PvT is that the Terran is free to take a quick third without fear.
1 rax expo expo is probably the strongest answer. I've got a replay of me trying it and sucking badly, but I haven't seen this build enough to really know how to deal with it.
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I still think this build is a little weak. As a Terran, when I see it I just throw down 4rax and pull all my workers, and with the late gateway, you'll not have enough stalkers to defend, or have them quick enough to scout it coming to build 135781983751 cannons.
Equally, as it becomes more popular, I feel more Terrans will open gas (I know I have started to anyway, as gasless FE feels a little predictable), and reactor hellion is a serious counter to this form of fast nexus.
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nexus first vs terran is not safe(maybe there's 1 map u can get away with it). 1 gate expand is the riskiest opening you should be using on the ladder. In the gsl they are meta gaming each other, and taking a risk based on the player they are playing. Even a 1 gate expand can be dicey on a small map.
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The ignorance surrounding this FFE vs Terran is pretty shocking. The only time you use this build is when you scout gasless expand by Terran. Thus the Medivacs will be greatly delayed coming out as will any kind of Marauder push or fast Reaper or Banshee. Obviously any of those things could do massive damage to you early, which is why you only use it vs gasless openings. And Cannons are very good vs Marines and SCV's and can hold you over until you get your Gateways out. If you scout a big Marines/SCV all-in, just build more Cannons, Chrono Zealots and pull Probes as necessary. So this build is very safe vs gasless Terrans early.
Another advantage with this build is that the early Forge means you can start getting upgrades a lot quicker, and thus with a lot of chrono used on the Forge, you don't have to go double Forge later. So while a Nexus -> Gateway opening gets Warpgate out quicker, a Nexus -> Forge opening gets out upgrades faster and is a bit safer. If you want to push the game into the later stages and don't plan to apply early pressure, then opening with a Forge after Nexus makes a lot of sense.
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pretty sure this build will fall out of style.. i feel like this build is TOO SAFE like protoss can already get away with nexus first.. why build cannons anyways.. besides, with chrono boost you already get ahead in upgrades usually. you really dont need a forge that early.. everytime i see this build, i just build a 3rd cc and 2 gas and 2 ebays on 1 rax its sooo insanely greedy but toss can't do nothing bout it.
not to mention you won't be using chrono boost on forge that early since you wana use it on probes so i dunno if terran does anything other than fast 3rd and 2 ebays then i guess it could be good.
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I thought they went fast third with this build
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The premise of this build I think is to make the game go straight to midgame, and establish an upgrade lead. It avoids Toss weaknesses and boosts Toss strength, at the expense of letting Terran do anything. Unfortunately, Terran cannot do much against well upgraded Toss late game, so the Protoss player doesn't care what Terran does. As long as Protoss gets that third with decent upgrades and gets the tech rolling, Protoss is at a colossal advantage.
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I don't really like it, is one of those builds for "pros". On ladder every terran goes 3 rax medivac or 2 rax medivac and simply crush you.
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I tried openings like this about 6 months ago, any economic advantage you did have goes out the window at the sight of the first reaper when you realise you've only just dropped a cyber core and its already wreaking havoc (without any hard stats, in my experience i'd estimate i see a quick reaper in maybe 25-30% of PvT's from a 1rax reaper expand)
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On April 20 2012 21:28 tsango wrote:
I tried openings like this about 6 months ago, any economic advantage you did have goes out the window at the sight of the first reaper when you realise you've only just dropped a cyber core and its already wreaking havoc (without any hard stats, in my experience i'd estimate i see a quick reaper in maybe 25-30% of PvT's from a 1rax reaper expand)
well I think we saw hero scout in time and go for this build as reaction to seeing a gasless expand
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EPT
