|
Like I said here, I find this build really bad. Compared it to PvZ, the zerg's standard reaction is taking a 3rd, which the toss can then punish/pressure and force a response. This you obviously can't against a terran, since he will make it inside his base and only float it over when he is ready/saturated on 2 bases.
About following this up with a quick 3rd, well all I can say is that in game 2 NASL Thorzain vs Alicia, Alicia blindly went fast 3rd Nexus(since in g1, he had opened up with the FFE and Tzain had gone 1rax CC CC, so guess he assumed the same). Well Tzain ended up crushing Alicia with ease.
As I see it, there isn't really much advantage with something like this, compared to just nexus first into gateways. The only strength is the quick upgrades, so my thinking would be, go FFE into +2 armor chargelot/immo bust or something along those lines, assuming that the terran goes fast 3rd CC.
|
you ca only do this if you scout gasless, but the cool thing is if you 9 scout ad its a 2 player spawn map which i think 4 maps are you will always see if a terran got gas. If yes, drop your gate, and if no you can try this out. Also, similarly on 4 player maps if you scout them first or second with no gas you can try this out, maps like shakuras, antiga, metropolis, entombed, tal darim i think this would be good on. You can already go nexus first vs terran but can you chrono workers if they dont let you scout the expo;, you are basically trading the first couple zealots you are forced to make blind for a canon The forge allows you to tech greedier while providing great defense vs marine scv all ins. Stop posting about terrans going quick reaper or medivac to beat this because in order to do so the terran would need to show no gas then double gas while faking an expo with a bunker at the front of expo which greatly delays either of these. If you scout gas and do this build you deserve to lose.
|
Putting that single cannon in the front appears to make you safe from two or three marines poking at your front door, but I don't know how you're going to have enough units if a concussive shell push (or any decent 2rax pressure) comes... I don't really want to spend 600 minerals throwing down cannons at my choke... The best defense is a good offense. Plus, Protoss already has the upgrade advantage with chrono boost  Why risk the entire early game by having no units and only static defense?
Also, you might lack the tech/ macro to stop a banshee rush or fast bio drop in your main, right? Although this cannon in front might make a Terran want to rush a siege tank with siege mode and then rape your face, making mech more viable! 
|
On April 20 2012 22:03 DarkPlasmaBall wrote: ...or any decent 2rax pressure... Also, you might lack the tech/ macro to stop a banshee rush or fast bio drop in your main, right? Although this cannon in front might make a Terran want to rush a siege tank with siege mode and then rape your face, making mech more viable!
Actually a FFE with a wall can hold a 2rax, but as you said, mech is really good against this.
When i scout this i lie back and prepare a 2base mech push with 2factorys reactored, 2factories techlab and one starport for raven. siege mode, blue flame and +1 wreck this very hard. If he goes super fast collossi you just scout it and dont get a raven, but vikings and for stalkers just a pdd. I ave never lost with this build against FFE and people used it a lot lately.
(Plat-Diamond EU... So it might be just me and my opponents being utter shit)
|
would anyone please stop theorycrafting and run a game where you rush for a hellion drop expand (no blue flame) vs a buddy protoss where he would make FFE into double (?) gateway + cyber.... please check the timings and stalker count...
I am at work, but I am intrigued by how you can defend your probe line with the hellion drop. Of course, you can add a cannon at your mineral line, but hell, 150 minerals that early in the game is a gamble.
|
On April 20 2012 22:15 WizardofGGG wrote:Show nested quote +On April 20 2012 22:03 DarkPlasmaBall wrote: ...or any decent 2rax pressure... Also, you might lack the tech/ macro to stop a banshee rush or fast bio drop in your main, right? Although this cannon in front might make a Terran want to rush a siege tank with siege mode and then rape your face, making mech more viable! Actually a FFE with a wall can hold a 2rax, but as you said, mech is really good against this. When i scout this i lie back and prepare a 2base mech push with 2factorys reactored, 2factories techlab and one starport for raven. siege mode, blue flame and +1 wreck this very hard. If he goes super fast collossi you just scout it and dont get a raven, but vikings and for stalkers just a pdd. I ave never lost with this build against FFE and people used it a lot lately. (Plat-Diamond EU... So it might be just me and my opponents being utter shit)
That's pretty interesting As a Protoss, I would definitely feel constantly behind my Terran opponent. A fast upgrade doesn't do much if I have no units.
(Also, I'm always extremely hesitant to wall off against Terran. It always seems that there's something they can pick off with their bio... some sweet spot they can find to position their marines or marauders in and pick away at a tech structure. But maybe I just have shitty structure placement lol.)
|
As a terran I either 1 rax FE where I put a 3rd CC down before adding 2 more rax or if I scout the nexus first I may proxy(/maka) two additional rax and do marine scv all in.
|
On April 20 2012 19:57 Veetz wrote:
pretty sure this build will fall out of style.. i feel like this build is TOO SAFE like protoss can already get away with nexus first.. why build cannons anyways.. besides, with chrono boost you already get ahead in upgrades usually. you really dont need a forge that early.. everytime i see this build, i just build a 3rd cc and 2 gas and 2 ebays on 1 rax its sooo insanely greedy but toss can't do nothing bout it.
not to mention you won't be using chrono boost on forge that early since you wana use it on probes so i dunno if terran does anything other than fast 3rd and 2 ebays then i guess it could be good.
Okay buddy how about we play a ONE game where you will do nexus first without forge and i will show you how easily can terran kill you early even if he was decided to go gasless expand... Even though Axslav still says that it is possible to hold off 4rax scv allin with just two gateways which is only true when terran is rly bad or messes up terribly (sorry but hero vs puma on antiga anyone?) So no its not true that this build is TOO SAFE lol. In fact terran is much more safe while doing equivalents of the builds(CC first,1rax FE) than protoss ever could be.
|
On April 20 2012 22:15 WizardofGGG wrote:Show nested quote +On April 20 2012 22:03 DarkPlasmaBall wrote: ...or any decent 2rax pressure... Also, you might lack the tech/ macro to stop a banshee rush or fast bio drop in your main, right? Although this cannon in front might make a Terran want to rush a siege tank with siege mode and then rape your face, making mech more viable! Actually a FFE with a wall can hold a 2rax, but as you said, mech is really good against this. When i scout this i lie back and prepare a 2base mech push with 2factorys reactored, 2factories techlab and one starport for raven. siege mode, blue flame and +1 wreck this very hard. If he goes super fast collossi you just scout it and dont get a raven, but vikings and for stalkers just a pdd. I ave never lost with this build against FFE and people used it a lot lately. (Plat-Diamond EU... So it might be just me and my opponents being utter shit)
These posts utterly miss the point of the OP. How is a 2 base mech push a counter to a NEXUS FIRST? By then, the opener does not depend any more, and nexus first guarantees you a superior economy at that point, so if you are winning with it, its not due to the opener.
If you rush to seige tanks to deal with a cannon at the front, I think its already paid for itself, and nexus first is a hard counter to 1/1/1.
Edit: Yes, this is a nexus first build with a forge included, not a ffe. The cannon is completely optional and scouting dependent.
|
On April 20 2012 22:37 YosHGo wrote:Show nested quote +On April 20 2012 19:57 Veetz wrote:
pretty sure this build will fall out of style.. i feel like this build is TOO SAFE like protoss can already get away with nexus first.. why build cannons anyways.. besides, with chrono boost you already get ahead in upgrades usually. you really dont need a forge that early.. everytime i see this build, i just build a 3rd cc and 2 gas and 2 ebays on 1 rax its sooo insanely greedy but toss can't do nothing bout it.
not to mention you won't be using chrono boost on forge that early since you wana use it on probes so i dunno if terran does anything other than fast 3rd and 2 ebays then i guess it could be good. Okay buddy how about we play a ONE game where you will do nexus first without forge and i will show you how easily can terran kill you early even if he was decided to go gasless expand... Even though Axslav still says that it is possible to hold off 4rax scv allin with just two gateways which is only true when terran is rly bad or messes up terribly (sorry but hero vs puma on antiga anyone?) So no its not true that this build is TOO SAFE lol. In fact terran is much more safe while doing equivalents of the builds(CC first,1rax FE) than protoss ever could be.
Agreed. The barracks into bunker makes any equivalent build from terran much safer than any non forge gasless opening from toss.
|
On April 20 2012 22:15 WizardofGGG wrote:Show nested quote +On April 20 2012 22:03 DarkPlasmaBall wrote: ...or any decent 2rax pressure... Also, you might lack the tech/ macro to stop a banshee rush or fast bio drop in your main, right? Although this cannon in front might make a Terran want to rush a siege tank with siege mode and then rape your face, making mech more viable! Actually a FFE with a wall can hold a 2rax, but as you said, mech is really good against this. When i scout this i lie back and prepare a 2base mech push with 2factorys reactored, 2factories techlab and one starport for raven. siege mode, blue flame and +1 wreck this very hard. If he goes super fast collossi you just scout it and dont get a raven, but vikings and for stalkers just a pdd. I ave never lost with this build against FFE and people used it a lot lately. (Plat-Diamond EU... So it might be just me and my opponents being utter shit)
watch hero vs mvp in gsl, mvp did fastest possible 2 base marie tank push vs this and hero had immortals in time, mvp cut a lot to do this ad still hero held, if a push hit later this you would have a better chance of holding then with 1 gate fe because you went nexus first and built 1 cannon instead of early zealots. What you are saying would be like saying if a protoss goes forge fe I just rush for spire off 2 base and he cant hold cause he put up a forge. Most people in lower leagues dont have adequate scouting, put up a forge before nexus and blindly get cannons regardless of if they saw gas or not. They just dont know how to react correctly to what they see or dont even look. I base play where you double gas ad do a timing after showing gasless might work but given that I watched 8+ gsl games terrans scouted this and did opt to do so im not too sure considering that given the popularity to the build in korea, terrans should know whats good against it. Triple cc is already popular vs nexus first or gate fes, the only advantage a nexus first ito gate istead of forge would give is a slightly fater warpgate which is oly needed if you are going for a timing or if they are pressuring you, in a macro game its not very important.
|
Very abusable the terran can easily go for a 3rd cc off 1 rax cc and 3 rax double ebay before the techlab and just kinda pressure when protoss tries to get their own third.
Reaper expand and just pretty much any gas opening completely kills this, but in the games that ive seen theyve all done it on antiga which is cross only in tournaments so they can pylon scout and see if gas and react accordingly
|
what about a single proxy rax lifted inbase ?
|
United Kingdom20338 Posts
Another advantage with this build is that the early Forge means you can start getting upgrades a lot quicker
People underestimate this greatly - i experimented myself at high dia (messing around, played ~30 games in a row to work on mechanics) and finishing +2 armor at like 8:30 is crazy good, essentially a build order win vs any kind of expand into mass rax.
Zealots have 1 base armor, under guardian shield they have 3 armor, with +2 armor they have 5, so they take 1 damage instead of 6 from marines. You can kill stupid amounts of marines.
Just did a quick test, unmicro'd amove has 10 zealots and 2 sentries beat 50 marines, with micro im sure terran could do a lot more with a lot less marines, but he simply wont do shit without attack upgrades etc, 1rax expand into 4-5rax pure marine is held effortlessly with that kind of composition
|
On April 20 2012 19:19 BronzeKnee wrote:
The ignorance surrounding this FFE vs Terran is pretty shocking. The only time you use this build is when you scout gasless expand by Terran.
Makes sense in theory. But on which maps/positions can you go nexus 15 *after* you've scouted no gas from Terran ?
In fact, ideally you should have scouted Terran before a potential 13 gate, else you're already risking ruinning your build. Let's say you arrive in Terran's base at 15 and you scout gas and no gate yet, what do you do ? Go for a 15 gate instead ? Or risk going for a 15 nexus versus a gas build ?
There aren't too many maps that I can think of, where you can scout a Terran before your 13 gate 
|
On April 21 2012 00:25 Nyast wrote:Show nested quote +On April 20 2012 19:19 BronzeKnee wrote:
The ignorance surrounding this FFE vs Terran is pretty shocking. The only time you use this build is when you scout gasless expand by Terran. Makes sense in theory. But on which maps/positions can you go nexus 15 *after* you've scouted no gas from Terran ? In fact, ideally you should have scouted Terran before a potential 13 gate, else you're already risking ruinning your build. Let's say you arrive in Terran's base at 15 and you scout gas and no gate yet, what do you do ? Go for a 15 gate instead ? Or risk going for a 15 nexus versus a gas build ? There aren't too many maps that I can think of, where you can scout a Terran before your 13 gate
You shouldn't scout that late then. Make a decision. Send scout after pylon and decide on scouting. If you can't determine opponent build by then, put the gate down or just go blind and adjust as necessary.
|
On April 21 2012 00:25 Nyast wrote:Show nested quote +On April 20 2012 19:19 BronzeKnee wrote:
The ignorance surrounding this FFE vs Terran is pretty shocking. The only time you use this build is when you scout gasless expand by Terran. Makes sense in theory. But on which maps/positions can you go nexus 15 *after* you've scouted no gas from Terran ? In fact, ideally you should have scouted Terran before a potential 13 gate, else you're already risking ruinning your build. Let's say you arrive in Terran's base at 15 and you scout gas and no gate yet, what do you do ? Go for a 15 gate instead ? Or risk going for a 15 nexus versus a gas build ? There aren't too many maps that I can think of, where you can scout a Terran before your 13 gate
HerO threw down a 15 or so gate in his GSL match against MVP in response to a gas opening. He definitely intended to Nexus first/FFE, but had to change that upon scouting the gas. The 15 gate won't delay you by that much vs a gas opening, and vs a gasless opening there really isnt much the terran can do to PUNISH this FFE other than outgreeding you.
|
Some people like to rush that armor upgrades so like doing this but I still don't really get it.
Against gas builds this is really risky as the cannon is useless against various builds (tank pressure, fast reaper, fast drops) so it's basically a meta build against gasless play which is the norm in high level play. Even then I don't really get it as I think you can just get away with nexus first into gate or just 20 nex then. The cannon doesn't do that much except make you safer against pressure which an extra gateway does just as well.
As for rushing armor, i still don't truly get it. It's not like they start armor as soon as the forge finishes so delaying that forge after the first two gates doesn't really seem to matter you can still get that armor really quick. At best it's a highly metagamed build for the pro scene that's probably useless in ladder is my suspicion unless I'm missing some important point about it.
|
Is it important to wall off vs terran?
Would it be better served to go for a fast forge to allow you to have detection vs DT's while going for non-robo tech after a fast nexus?
|
cannon expands are common for several weeks on the eu ladder now. most of the time after gateway though - nothing new.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
