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On April 24 2012 09:25 NrGmonk wrote:Show nested quote +On April 24 2012 09:19 Zealot Lord wrote:On April 24 2012 08:01 avilo wrote:
I do the nexus forge fast expand every PvT I play so far, and win virtually every PvT...it's a good build. And for people saying Terran can just drop you or kill your or something...not really. You can have so many units in the mid-game that you will never die to any 2 base from Terran...
And if Terran goes for 3 bases...or an in-base orbital...well, this is what every Protoss player WANTS. The game to drag on long because the longer the game goes, the better it is for the Protoss player.
It's a strong, strong build. And reaper does nothing to it. You build the cannon at the front, take 5 probes to your cliff wherever the reaper will hop up...now you are so far ahead it's not even funny, you'll be usually ~20 probes ahead from chronoboost if Terran went reaper first.
So as said...you get every advantage. You get fast upgrades, you get a huge mid-game army that you can all-in with very easily, you entice Terran to play lategame against you, and you will have so much that you can hold off any all-ins EASY. You can even metagame this a lot of times and take your third nexus early with +2 armor chargelots, mass guardian shield/FFs, into templar + cannon turtle. Then you just play standard PvT like mech Terran and never attack until you're 3/0/3, 200/200 with collosus + templar in warp prisms + 5k/5k bank. Sorry if I'm mistaken, but aren't you a terran player? You said yourself on your stream page (http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=181166) that you play terran, and I've read a ton of posts from you talking about nothing but TvP. So did you change races or something? The reason I'm bringing this up is that this is a strategy forum where players discuss things to improve their gameplay, but if people start making claims (not necessarily saying that you are) that are just made up, it can really hurt the integrity of these threads imo. Since I know you are a high level player (and thus will play skilled opponents), it would be great to see you upload some of these replays of you winning virtually every PvT using nexus FFE, would definitely prove the viability of this build on ladder. Avilo's claims, although regularly whiny, are more informed than 99% of people who post on these forums, even when he talks about his offrace.
Alright, fair enough - but what's your view though monk? Since none of the core blue poster Tosses (whom I trust and rely the most on, such as yourself and others who post in the protoss help me thread) have yet to say anything, is the nexus FFE really that solid of a build even against gas opening builds? I watch pretty much every game in the GSL, and I don't think I've yet to see this opening against anything but gasless openings, could be wrong though~
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ToD is using this opener on his stream right now, and I would imagine he will use it some more if you wanna check out how it works for him.
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On April 24 2012 07:23 Micket wrote:
Question. Whats wrong with nexus gateway forge and get the early upgrade anyway? Gasless isn't going to be attacking you. I just don't see the advantage of nexus forge gateway cannon, when the build is designed to fight a fast expanding Terran. You could always build a cannon for the 4+ rax marine timing.
Gasless can do marine/SCV all-in which from my understanding the early forge is meant to keep you safe from.
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From a terran's perspective what is the proper response to something like this? - I've played against this style a couple of times on ladder and lost everytime, generally because I was pretty clueless on how to punish something like this. I've tried getting a super fast third base and playing as greedily as possible getting double ebay and was beaten (probably because that is what the protoss hopes I will do.). A two rax fails horribly as two or three more cannons with a few units are more than enough to hold it off.
I was thinking of some sort of marine / helion elevator to try and cripple a protoss economy, but I think that it would leave me vulnerable to any two base all ins or 4 / 5 gate pressure with +1/
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United States8477 Posts
I don't like to give an opinion on things I don't feel strongly about or haven't developed an opinion on yet, but here's my initial thoughts. Here's a quote to start it off.
On April 18 2012 17:48 Thorzain wrote:
RoX.KiS.Pomi, the russian protoss, has been doing this build for a couple of months already.
I don't like it very much tho. If the terran is gasless, triple OC builds will be good against it. If the terran goes gas, an early elevator will come 1 minute before warpgates are even done, and it will be very hard for the protoss to stop it. It's very hard for the protoss to know what's coming when going up against a gas build going FFE. They have to build more cannons in anticipation of pushes at the front, so they will be even weaker against elevators in the main.
I agree with thorzain in that I don't think this build is very good versus gas builds. But then again, you have nexus first into gateway for versus that. Thorzain also points out that Terran can get away with fast 3OC with this build safely. If you're comfortable playing vs fast 3OC with a nexus first economy, then by all means, do this build. This is the crux of avilo's post, although he puts a fairly terran skew on things. One other thing to consider is that with this build, you can get a faster robotics safely than you normally would, because you can go 1 gate robo instead of the typical 3 gate robo you find with 1 gate FE builds. Thus your observer will get to the Terran's base faster and you can react faster.
I like to compare this build with the 2 other macro builds Protoss has, the 1 gate FE and the Nexus first into gateway build. Both 1 gate FE and Nexus into forge are safe builds in that with proper reactions, you won't die to anything. Nexus into forge gives you better economy at the cost of a lack of potential threats to the Terran. If you open 1 gate FE, terrans will on average be forced to build 2 more bunkers and play more cautiously. They can still, however, "safely" go 3 OC(it is a very common builds vs 1 gate FE) and hold anything Protoss can throw at them IF they know what's coming. That's a big if which relies mainly on lucky scans and sneaking scvs, but it is possible. On the other hand, some terrans will just make a bet on what you're doing and make a bet, essentially coin flipping; if he flips right, you can end up fairly far behind. With all of that information in mind, if you don't plan on doing any gateway pressure off a 1 gate FE, you have to judge for yourself whether the pros of Neuxs into forge outweigh the cons.
The other comparison is to Nexus into gateway. I believe Nexus into forge evolved mainly because Terrans began blind countering Nexus into gateway so much with a proxied 2nd rax. I believe Alive vs Squirtle in the IPL finals illustrated this best when about 3 games in an 8 game series were decided in this way. Nexus into forge builds Terran way behind if they attempt a 2 rax opening whereas 2 rax is pretty autowin vs Nexus into gateway. Funnily enough, I believe because Neuxs into forge is getting so popular, 2 rax will get less popular and thus Neuxs into gateway will rise again.
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On April 24 2012 10:46 Jaegeru wrote:
From a terran's perspective what is the proper response to something like this? - I've played against this style a couple of times on ladder and lost everytime, generally because I was pretty clueless on how to punish something like this. I've tried getting a super fast third base and playing as greedily as possible getting double ebay and was beaten (probably because that is what the protoss hopes I will do.). A two rax fails horribly as two or three more cannons with a few units are more than enough to hold it off.
I was thinking of some sort of marine / helion elevator to try and cripple a protoss economy, but I think that it would leave me vulnerable to any two base all ins or 4 / 5 gate pressure with +1/
This build really can't deny hellion harass early on. Run 4 hellions by the cannon either into the main or natural and you can kill a lot. You can then take a third and continue to harass or just tech straight to drops. That can be done off a 1 rax expand (see MKP vs whitera at IPL4), or you can even do a 1 base build with hellion drops into a 1/1/1, which has been done recently in GSL by supernova.
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If I ever scout FFE as a terran... I personally go for reapers. I usually win shortly after.
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I feel like if you know the forge fast expand build is vulnerable to elevator timings, all you have to do is gear your build for that elevator timing, depending on what you scout from Terran. You scout 2 rax, or 2raxish things, prepare for 2rax, you scout for an elevator timing, prepare for an elevator timing.
It seems pretty simple to me, by X time if there is no elevator and hes still on one base, hes 1 1 1 and you can prepare accordingly.
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What would you suggest as a response after a 15 cc? What I tried was going another command centre, double gas, double engie bay and then more rax to try and stay on par with his upgrades. I think I just botched the engagement a little bit, but here's the replay. http://drop.sc/166293
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Northern Ireland27471 Posts
On April 24 2012 11:01 Tical3000 wrote:
If I ever scout FFE as a terran... I personally go for reapers. I usually win shortly after.
As this build is meant to be used only when no gas is scouted, or assumed and taken as a calculated risk on that benefit I don't see how that point is relevant.
@Vanger, hm I think this is a relatively new style so the optimal responses have yet to be figured out. If you have experience in playing against Nexus-first builds regularly I'd use them as a framework to approach hitting this style, with some caveats.
From the Protoss point of view, the build can diverge too much from the opening for there to be a cast-iron, catch-all response. Basically it holds 2 raxes so tick that option off.
I'd personally go for quick 3rd CC, macro-oriented approaches if you tick off other eventualities. By these I mean primarily stuff like immortal busts and really heavy gateway timings. If you don't suspect some type of midgame timing bust I'd plonk that third CC down. An additional bonus is the extra scans you get from the third CC. The forge build gets a good economy going, quickly, with the additional bonus of letting you cut corners to get advanced up the tech tree as well, so it transitions smoothly to really heavy upgrade styles, collosus-centric play or quick templars. With reference to the Oz game in GSL where he lost using this opener, I think that shows the potential pitfalls of being aggressive and annoying with your gateway armies. Iif you don't recall, he basically spent a few too many forcefields in the middle of Antiga vs ForGG and couldn't hold his third as a result. Lack of midgame map presence, or at least the riskiness of doing so from the Protoss perspective means you can take your own third more safely.
It's keeping an eye of what path he's going down that is most important imo, rather than having a pre-determined response to the opener.
Apologies if this isn't much help or is too vague/non-specific. I just feel the way to win TvP is to outplay your opponent and making better decisions on the fly (while engaging well), glad I don't play Terran and have to face my Aiur brethren tbh!
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As a terran, if i would encounter this build (i usually do gasless FE), i probably will throw a double gas and go for delayed stim timing off 1 base and 3 rax. Because forge needs to be put on 13-15 food, and if its nexus first then on 15 food. My expo will go down only on 17, after my first OC, so thats gives me a room to scount forge/nexus. Yes, that will delay timing of my stim, but warpgate is also quite delayed. Just on first look, when i scount this and throw down refineries:
-30 sec to build refineries;
-25 sec+ around 10 sec to build tech labs (10 sec to get starting 25 gas);
-170 sec on stim research;
235 seconds before stim is done, which is around 4 minutes. + some time to get to the natural of protoss
For protoss to get warpgate: (i assume gate will go down at the same time as my refineries);
-60 sec on gate;
-60 sec (or 80? not sure here) on cyber;
-180 on research (lets say 150, hence chrono);
Gives us 270 seconds, or 4.5 minutes. So this push seems to be viable.
It also quite hard to scount as well, tho if protoss will see terran on 1 base, he will assume something is coming. But obs will be also quite delayed. (im too lazy to do math on that one ;D)
But yea, i don't think terran needs to try to outmacro protoss here. Terran is string in midgame, and somewhat in early game, so might as well abuse that.
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@ Jaegeru:
Don't listen to the other guys above; if you don't have gas yet (and if Protoss has made a forge first it should have been in response to seeing you didn't have any) you're not going to get in on time unless he's just bad.
If you already have gas and he made the forge anyway, go with either the reaper or hellion options the others are talking about and roflstomp the probes in his main.
@ Owl:
Protoss shouldn't be making the forge before the Nexus, that defeats the whole point of the build. I don't place down the forge until 18 supply, since there really isn't anything to worry about unless there was a blind second proxy rax and I failed to count SCVs, in which case an earlier forge wouldn't help anyway.
Liquipedia is your frend: CyCore is 50 seconds (not 80! man that would be rough) but gateway is 65. And warpgate is 160 seconds, not 180 (the 180 number was the overnerf that existed in the public test region for a while but was abandoned). Also, making 2 refineries for a 2rax really messes up the economy if I'm not mistaken; the attack isn't just going to be delayed, it's going to be a bit smaller too.
Protoss can respond to an amount of bio that is clearly a 1 base all-in by pulling a lot of probes in addition to the ~3 cannons and whatever combat units Protoss has. I go Robo before warpgate tech with this build and already have an Immortal out by 7:15. If I rush double Robo I have 3 or 4 Immortals, a Sentry with Guardian Shield ready, a bunch of sacrificeable probes at the natural, and 3 cannons out by the time I get hit by a stim push. Good luck breaking that.
My double robo silliness is probably not normal, but my point is that a FFE protoss can have plenty of units ready by the time a delayed 1 base all-in hits Gateways can make units pre-warpgate, as much as my bretheren often pretend otherwise. Heck, we're ready to survive most not-delayed 1 base all ins; the only reason we're not doing FFE in the face of gas openings is because of fast Reapers and Hellions. Remember, a Nexus first starts paying for itself really quickly, so if you hit with a delayed version of a 1-base attack, you should not be surprised to see that the greedy build has already made an amount of units that you would expect a 1 baser to have. (Consider: 1-1-1 fails hard core vs Nexus first builds in general; by the time all the pieces have been brought together the Protoss have already taken such a lead that the tech no longer matters).
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Just saw MKP play against Hongun twice and he beat this build both times pretty easily with all-ins. On entombed he did a 2 rax marauder/marine/scv all-in into 5 cannons and it wasn't close even though hongun pulled his probes to defend. On ohana a proxy reaper rush killed a lot of workers and never gave him a chance. Definitely worth scouting for these kind of things.
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If I tried this in diamond league where everyone 2 rax's, id lose every single time lol. I would never forge FE vs terran, ever.
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Blazinghand
United States25563 Posts
On April 28 2012 05:52 ishyishy wrote:
If I tried this in diamond league where everyone 2 rax's, id lose every single time lol. I would never forge FE vs terran, ever.
I think that there's some common misconception in this thread that this build would be used against a terran who takes gas. Let me break it down in a graphical format how this build works so we stop getting posts like this:
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/tQmq3.png)
The idea that any sort of build that goes 12 rax 13 gas would ever encounter a nexus first -> forge build is preposterous. If the terran went for a 13 gas (or scouting was denied), protoss just plays this like a normal Nexus first build (take a look at how axslav does it, for example). This doesn't mean an auto-win vs 2 rax or reaper rush or whatever, but Nexus First -> Gateway is totally viable against any terran gas opener.
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On April 28 2012 06:34 Blazinghand wrote:Show nested quote +On April 28 2012 05:52 ishyishy wrote:
If I tried this in diamond league where everyone 2 rax's, id lose every single time lol. I would never forge FE vs terran, ever. I think that there's some common misconception in this thread that this build would be used against a terran who takes gas. Let me break it down in a graphical format how this build works so we stop getting posts like this: The idea that any sort of build that goes 12 rax 13 gas would ever encounter a nexus first -> forge build is preposterous. If the terran went for a 13 gas (or scouting was denied), protoss just plays this like a normal Nexus first build (take a look at how axslav does it, for example). This doesn't mean an auto-win vs 2 rax or reaper rush or whatever, but Nexus First -> Gateway is totally viable against any terran gas opener.
Except that people have been using this at pro level against gas builds. I agree they probably shouldn't, but in some cases you can't really scout the terran in time to make this decision.
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Blazinghand
United States25563 Posts
On April 28 2012 06:54 oOOoOphidian wrote:Show nested quote +On April 28 2012 06:34 Blazinghand wrote:On April 28 2012 05:52 ishyishy wrote:
If I tried this in diamond league where everyone 2 rax's, id lose every single time lol. I would never forge FE vs terran, ever. I think that there's some common misconception in this thread that this build would be used against a terran who takes gas. Let me break it down in a graphical format how this build works so we stop getting posts like this: The idea that any sort of build that goes 12 rax 13 gas would ever encounter a nexus first -> forge build is preposterous. If the terran went for a 13 gas (or scouting was denied), protoss just plays this like a normal Nexus first build (take a look at how axslav does it, for example). This doesn't mean an auto-win vs 2 rax or reaper rush or whatever, but Nexus First -> Gateway is totally viable against any terran gas opener. Except that people have been using this at pro level against gas builds. I agree they probably shouldn't, but in some cases you can't really scout the terran in time to make this decision.
If you can't scout the terran in time, then you can go for a traditional nexus first into gateway build. ishyishy was talking about the very real danger that 2 rax would pose a nexus first into forge build, and I'm pointing out that if there's a possibility your opponent is going for 2 rax (you can't confirm he didn't take gas) then a traditional nexus first build is what he should go for.
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I have a question about this build. I have heard that the response to a one base marine scv timing is to pull probes and get 2 extra cannons but how do you scout this?
If terran just clears the tower and shows just enough marines to clear the probe and prevent the CC from being scouted, do you have to build 3 cannons blindly?
What if terran goes triple OC in the main without showing it at the natural, does that force 3x 150 minerals from the toss, and does that put you way behind?
I can't seem to figure out how to scout w/ this build, you have no units...
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On April 28 2012 07:36 willyallthewei wrote:
I have a question about this build. I have heard that the response to a one base marine scv timing is to pull probes and get 2 extra cannons but how do you scout this?
If terran just clears the tower and shows just enough marines to clear the probe and prevent the CC from being scouted, do you have to build 3 cannons blindly?
What if terran goes triple OC in the main without showing it at the natural, does that force 3x 150 minerals from the toss, and does that put you way behind?
I can't seem to figure out how to scout w/ this build, you have no units...
probes can run around marines and if you suspect something you can keep running around looking for an scv pull
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On April 28 2012 07:48 oOOoOphidian wrote:Show nested quote +On April 28 2012 07:36 willyallthewei wrote:
I have a question about this build. I have heard that the response to a one base marine scv timing is to pull probes and get 2 extra cannons but how do you scout this?
If terran just clears the tower and shows just enough marines to clear the probe and prevent the CC from being scouted, do you have to build 3 cannons blindly?
What if terran goes triple OC in the main without showing it at the natural, does that force 3x 150 minerals from the toss, and does that put you way behind?
I can't seem to figure out how to scout w/ this build, you have no units...
probes can run around marines and if you suspect something you can keep running around looking for an scv pull
I guess i was hoping for a more profound response...
So I'm relying on my opponents lack of micro and map awareness to sneak a probe behind his stuff, ie, if he pushes his marines further and further along the scouting paths, my probe must be able to find an opportunity to run behind on of those marines.
I just don't know, he will have 3 to 4 marines just playing standard, that's a lot of guys to reliably dodge, even w/ 2 probes.
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EPT
