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Blazinghand
United States25550 Posts
As a Mid Master Terran, I would like to speak out in support of Fan. 15 Nexus -> Gateway is a fairly common opener that I see, and 15 Nexus -> Forge is really just a slightly greedier version with a quicker +1 (and +2), and more probes since the cannon gives you a little bit of leaning room.
The biggest thing most other people are missing out here is that this build OPENS as a 15 Nexus! Typically you're 9-scouting, and you'll see if the terran has gas or not. If you scout gas, you play standard 15 Nexus -> Gateway build and you can hold any 1-1-1, 2-rax concussive, etc. If you scout no gas, you drop the forge and get quick upgrades that make zealots mad good. If you are walled out or otherwise fooled or unable to scout, you're admittedly in a tougher position.
I've been spamming games against my P practice partners to work out my 3OC response, and it doesn't quite catapult you into the lead you'd expect it to. Protoss hits 2 base saturation quickly and has a strong upgrade advantage, and really you're just using the 3rd OC to saturate (and take your gasses) more quickly, and for the +50% muling power for quite some time before moving out.
A game against this sort of build will play out like a game against a 15 Nexus player, but you can feel a bit safer and be a BIT greedier-- but he WILL have strong upgrades and the sort of mass gateway play that is common coming out of this build is proportionately stronger.
Don't discount this build so easily. I've seen it on the ladder, I've seen it up close, and hell, I've seen it in the GSL.
15 Nexus lives on, as it always does.
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Fan you think you could provide a few replays of you doing it? I would greatly appreciate it if you could
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As a diamond level player I can vouch for FFE holding all the Terran all-ins at that level. I get a Phoenix as my AA choice in time to only lose a few probes to a Banshee (and then my economy and tech are way ahead so I beat 1-1-1 trivially), marine/tank all-in is no trouble (just make sure the photon cannons aren't clumped together so the cannons take as long to eliminate as possible), nuke rush is just a matter of sniping the ghosts (I personally have Phoenixes and just lift the ghost in question), 2rax/3rax just dies at the photon cannons so long as you pull probes alongside your units, and you have your static defenses up way sooner than Zerg does for a bunker rush.
Quite frankly, the bigger problem is the usual problem Protoss has against Zerg - if Terran goes triple orbital, taking your own third becomes quite difficult while you have committed yourself to nonaggression for a while. I'm always happy to see aggression of any form coming my way when I FFE, it's far easier to win that way.
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On April 21 2012 09:13 Fan wrote:
A cannon + probe pull is strong enough to stop any early marine scv rush
gateway units/warpgates will be out in time to stop any multiple rax stim marine marauder timing.
Without stim, cannons actually fare well against marauders, so stimless 2 rax attacks are very unlikely to work. The strength in stimless 2rax lies with concussive shells, which (obviously) don't work against cannons.
I just don't get the timings of this build.
I checked AGIANTSMURF's replay, and his cybercore *finishes* at 5'20. At this time, there can already be a reaper in your base. How the hell do you avoid tremendous eco damage without even a first unit started ?
But okay, let's ignore that for a second. At this timing ( 5'20 ) he barely has enough gas to start his warp research and a stalker. So he's short 100 gas to start researching his first upgrade. I'd really like to see your build, cause to get enough gas for warp + stalker + upgrade at this moment, you must have taken your second gas very early ( which AGIANTSMURF didn't )..
What I don't really understand is how can you survive proxy builds / all-ins where the guy simply by-passes the cannon(s) and goes directly in the back of your base ? You have no units besides a single stalker, if I'm not mistaken, when this happens.. or do you just go crazy with cannons when you scout the all-in ?
How do the timings fare with a helion drop ? This happens pretty quickly too if I remember well. Is warp completed ? At which time does it normally complete ? How many chronos do you spend on it ?
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@Nyast: if your opponent is rushing a tech lab, you just don't do FFE. Getting a Reaper at 5:20 requires doing things that Protoss can scout, and rushing a tech lab means Protoss doesn't even need a cannon up so fast (since you skipped the first couple marines).
If proxies are done reactively in response to seeing your nexus, you should be able to follow the scouting SCV to its position and see it and make the appropriate cannon count. An unscouted proxy 2 rax will generally stomp this but the same can be said of CC first and (to a slightly lesser degree) Hatch first.
Bunker rush is no issue; you just hold it off like you're a Zerg, only as Protoss you get good static defenses in a far more reasonable amount of time.
If you fail to get a decent wall Hellion runbys are problematic. (i.e. don't do this on Metalopolis, in case that wasn't obvious for other reasons). Drop play, however, is so late that I have Immortals out by the time they arrive.
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On April 22 2012 00:59 Crow! wrote:
@Nyast: if your opponent is rushing a tech lab, you just don't do FFE. Getting a Reaper at 5:20 requires doing things that Protoss can scout, and rushing a tech lab means Protoss doesn't even need a cannon up so fast (since you skipped the first couple marines).
If proxies are done reactively in response to seeing your nexus, you should be able to follow the scouting SCV to its position and see it and make the appropriate cannon count.
So you're scouting at 9 out of a 15 nexus ?
And then you need a second scout just to follow the ennemy scv, just "in case of". That's 2 probes that don't mine when you're 15 nexus-ing..
Hmm...
On April 22 2012 00:59 Crow! wrote:If you fail to get a decent wall Hellion runbys are problematic. (i.e. don't do this on Metalopolis, in case that wasn't obvious for other reasons). Drop play, however, is so late that I have Immortals out by the time they arrive.
I don't know which build you're doing that gets your immortals by the time a helion drop happens. In my games, this happens between 6'30 and 6'45.
Doing Fan's build ( quoted: pylon, nexus, forge, pylon, cannon, gate, gas x2, core when gate is finished, stalker when core is finished ), I get a single stalker done at 6'30 and warp is barely half way. How do you hold 4 helions harassing your main with a single stalker and no warp ?
I don't want to sound too negative, but really, until I can see the replay of somebody who does a good execution of that build, it's hard for me to believe it's not an auto-loss versus fast reapers, fast helions drop, or tons of other possible terran answers.. 
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If your cyber core finishes at 5:20, the stalker will not be out before a reaper is in the main if the Terran got gas. He can make one marine, chase the probe out, and build a tech lab. At that rate, a reaper will be in a mineral line (even cross map) in time to do a bunch of damage before the stalker shows up. So that is obviously not economical for the Protoss, and it's about as simple a response as possible for the Terran. So is this opening meant just for fighting gasless terrans? Because I'm reading a lot about fighting 1-1-1s with this and I don't understand how getting a forge is intelligent when you see 14 gas.
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On April 22 2012 01:47 ineversmile wrote:
If your cyber core finishes at 5:20, the stalker will not be out before a reaper is in the main if the Terran got gas. He can make one marine, chase the probe out, and build a tech lab. At that rate, a reaper will be in a mineral line (even cross map) in time to do a bunch of damage before the stalker shows up. So that is obviously not economical for the Protoss, and it's about as simple a response as possible for the Terran. So is this opening meant just for fighting gasless terrans? Because I'm reading a lot about fighting 1-1-1s with this and I don't understand how getting a forge is intelligent when you see 14 gas.
yeah its for gasless, i watched a korean stream yesterday (i think it was crank) with this and a terran just got like 7 minute siege mode and wrecked it. If you open 17 nexus 17 gate and get core right away it still lets reaper be in your base for like 20 sec if they rushed tech lab so with forge first instead of gate if they micro and keep building reapers while expoing u auto lose. Your tech is too late if they gas but if they gasless you can do it because if the terran tries to trick you, show gasless, and double gasses after your worker dies or leaves his push will be later than a normal push so you should be fine.
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Faced this 4 times in a row on KR today high diamond - mid masters protoss was the range of ppl. They make 1 cannon, if they see pressure, 2 more, and go 6 gate. They are fine to get a robo out before cloak does too much damage, and a cannon can provide vision of banshee of mineral line.
TBH I'm fucking retarded and cannot find a way to beat this on certain maps with chokes where stalker + cannon + sentry can hold off infantry indefinitely.
Only time I was able to beat it was when I went a complete all in marine tank banshee after a gasless FE and caught him unawares with a giant marine ball.
The 4-6 gate follow up with 2 nexus, and early upgrade is downright fucking disgusting.
And reapers aren't all that game ending against this. Half decent probe micro can keep a swarm of probes on you as they pull the weak ones away decently enough to staff off some damage. I know because I went 2 reaper off reaper FE, and got maybe only 5-6 probes, max. But what's 5-6 probes to double chrono protoss. One guy did a follow up 6 gate and had over 100 supply, and 40+ probes, even with me and even surpassed me.
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What if terran opens with reapper ?
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On April 24 2012 05:48 Yuffie wrote:
What if terran opens with reapper ?
You dont go forge if you scout gas
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On April 20 2012 14:50 CaptainHaz wrote:
I feel like this leaves you more vulnerable to elevator timings. Since you're delaying your gateway, helions and other things will create more trouble for you if the terran just decides to go straight for factory/starport. I think that you can be safe against everything using just nex->gateway, save something like a helion drop.
I did ~10 games with it, and every single game the terran went for either split drops or elevator timing. It is however very possible to defend vs these, and it's basically gg as soon as you stop it. Personally I found more sucess with going 1 cannon, 3 gates for stalkers and then +1 attack instead of armor. Much more useful against the drop play, and no one even attempted a front door bust, and if they do you can easily drop another 2 cannons before they hit and the terran will be really far behind.
I think the best T response is to just double expand when they see FFE, as you can't really pressure behind your forge build.
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Question. Whats wrong with nexus gateway forge and get the early upgrade anyway? Gasless isn't going to be attacking you. I just don't see the advantage of nexus forge gateway cannon, when the build is designed to fight a fast expanding Terran. You could always build a cannon for the 4+ rax marine timing.
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On April 24 2012 06:04 GiftPflanZe wrote:You dont go forge if you scout gas
Even if you do, it's not a 100% loss. A few lost probes doesn't mean you won't catch back up, and if they get greedy you can just roll over with heavy gate pressure.
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On April 22 2012 01:41 Nyast wrote:Show nested quote +On April 22 2012 00:59 Crow! wrote:
@Nyast: if your opponent is rushing a tech lab, you just don't do FFE. Getting a Reaper at 5:20 requires doing things that Protoss can scout, and rushing a tech lab means Protoss doesn't even need a cannon up so fast (since you skipped the first couple marines).
If proxies are done reactively in response to seeing your nexus, you should be able to follow the scouting SCV to its position and see it and make the appropriate cannon count. So you're scouting at 9 out of a 15 nexus ? And then you need a second scout just to follow the ennemy scv, just "in case of". That's 2 probes that don't mine when you're 15 nexus-ing.. Hmm...
It is totally fine, as a reward you get 2x chrono probes, it doesn't put you behind too much.
I trie this build on EU gold league today (well not this build, but the standard "OK i heard forge was good for nexus first, I'll try and make it work on ladder without practicing it!" variance) and to my endless astonishment it crushed a blind 3rax all scv pull all-in! Check my replay out if you want to see scrubby gold leaguers battling each other!
... link ...
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I do the nexus forge fast expand every PvT I play so far, and win virtually every PvT...it's a good build. And for people saying Terran can just drop you or kill your or something...not really. You can have so many units in the mid-game that you will never die to any 2 base from Terran...
And if Terran goes for 3 bases...or an in-base orbital...well, this is what every Protoss player WANTS. The game to drag on long because the longer the game goes, the better it is for the Protoss player.
It's a strong, strong build. And reaper does nothing to it. You build the cannon at the front, take 5 probes to your cliff wherever the reaper will hop up...now you are so far ahead it's not even funny, you'll be usually ~20 probes ahead from chronoboost if Terran went reaper first.
So as said...you get every advantage. You get fast upgrades, you get a huge mid-game army that you can all-in with very easily, you entice Terran to play lategame against you, and you will have so much that you can hold off any all-ins EASY. You can even metagame this a lot of times and take your third nexus early with +2 armor chargelots, mass guardian shield/FFs, into templar + cannon turtle. Then you just play standard PvT like mech Terran and never attack until you're 3/0/3, 200/200 with collosus + templar in warp prisms + 5k/5k bank.
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The whole point of the 9 scout is so you can go gateway first or Nexus --> gateway in response to certain gas timings; then it plays out like a normal build.
Its greedy, and if you do it OZ style, its probably the greediest build in PvT, since he gets his 3rd Nexus at 7 minutes and has 1-1 at the time old double forge builds would be starting their upgrades.
And for the people saying this can hold off gas builds from Terran, I highly highly doubt it. There's a reason that so far its only been done on two player maps and has been accompanied by a 9 scout nearly every game its been used, the build is flat out abandoned vs. gas builds.
You can't just blindly do this build vs. a gassing Terran, off the top of my head, even as a Protoss player i can think of a half dozen things that would straight kill the build if the Terran got gas.
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Fan, mind sharing replays? =)
Following this discussion closely. Seems like people either love or hate this opening.
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On April 24 2012 08:01 avilo wrote:
I do the nexus forge fast expand every PvT I play so far, and win virtually every PvT...it's a good build. And for people saying Terran can just drop you or kill your or something...not really. You can have so many units in the mid-game that you will never die to any 2 base from Terran...
And if Terran goes for 3 bases...or an in-base orbital...well, this is what every Protoss player WANTS. The game to drag on long because the longer the game goes, the better it is for the Protoss player.
It's a strong, strong build. And reaper does nothing to it. You build the cannon at the front, take 5 probes to your cliff wherever the reaper will hop up...now you are so far ahead it's not even funny, you'll be usually ~20 probes ahead from chronoboost if Terran went reaper first.
So as said...you get every advantage. You get fast upgrades, you get a huge mid-game army that you can all-in with very easily, you entice Terran to play lategame against you, and you will have so much that you can hold off any all-ins EASY. You can even metagame this a lot of times and take your third nexus early with +2 armor chargelots, mass guardian shield/FFs, into templar + cannon turtle. Then you just play standard PvT like mech Terran and never attack until you're 3/0/3, 200/200 with collosus + templar in warp prisms + 5k/5k bank.
Sorry if I'm mistaken, but aren't you a terran player? You said yourself on your stream page (http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=181166) that you play terran, and I've read a ton of posts from you talking about nothing but TvP. So did you change races or something? The reason I'm bringing this up is that this is a strategy forum where players discuss things to improve their gameplay, but if people start making claims (not necessarily saying that you are) that are just made up, it can really hurt the integrity of these threads imo.
Since I know you are a high level player (and thus will play skilled opponents), it would be great to see you upload some of these replays of you winning virtually every PvT using nexus FFE, would definitely prove the viability of this build on ladder.
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United States8476 Posts
On April 24 2012 09:19 Zealot Lord wrote:Show nested quote +On April 24 2012 08:01 avilo wrote:
I do the nexus forge fast expand every PvT I play so far, and win virtually every PvT...it's a good build. And for people saying Terran can just drop you or kill your or something...not really. You can have so many units in the mid-game that you will never die to any 2 base from Terran...
And if Terran goes for 3 bases...or an in-base orbital...well, this is what every Protoss player WANTS. The game to drag on long because the longer the game goes, the better it is for the Protoss player.
It's a strong, strong build. And reaper does nothing to it. You build the cannon at the front, take 5 probes to your cliff wherever the reaper will hop up...now you are so far ahead it's not even funny, you'll be usually ~20 probes ahead from chronoboost if Terran went reaper first.
So as said...you get every advantage. You get fast upgrades, you get a huge mid-game army that you can all-in with very easily, you entice Terran to play lategame against you, and you will have so much that you can hold off any all-ins EASY. You can even metagame this a lot of times and take your third nexus early with +2 armor chargelots, mass guardian shield/FFs, into templar + cannon turtle. Then you just play standard PvT like mech Terran and never attack until you're 3/0/3, 200/200 with collosus + templar in warp prisms + 5k/5k bank. Sorry if I'm mistaken, but aren't you a terran player? You said yourself on your stream page (http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=181166) that you play terran, and I've read a ton of posts from you talking about nothing but TvP. So did you change races or something? The reason I'm bringing this up is that this is a strategy forum where players discuss things to improve their gameplay, but if people start making claims (not necessarily saying that you are) that are just made up, it can really hurt the integrity of these threads imo. Since I know you are a high level player (and thus will play skilled opponents), it would be great to see you upload some of these replays of you winning virtually every PvT using nexus FFE, would definitely prove the viability of this build on ladder.
Avilo's claims, although regularly whiny, are more informed than 99% of people who post on these forums, even when he talks about his offrace.
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EPT
