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On April 20 2012 19:57 Veetz wrote:
pretty sure this build will fall out of style.. i feel like this build is TOO SAFE like protoss can already get away with nexus first.. why build cannons anyways.. besides, with chrono boost you already get ahead in upgrades usually. you really dont need a forge that early.. everytime i see this build, i just build a 3rd cc and 2 gas and 2 ebays on 1 rax its sooo insanely greedy but toss can't do nothing bout it.
not to mention you won't be using chrono boost on forge that early since you wana use it on probes so i dunno if terran does anything other than fast 3rd and 2 ebays then i guess it could be good.
It has been shown time and time again that 15 Nexus -> Gate is an instant loss to various cheese. This Gate -> Forge build is essentially an evolution of the 15 Nexus opening.
And another thing that people aren't really mentioning is that this is really only viable on maps with a natural ramp/choke which you can defend with stationary cannon(s). It won't work on maps with wide open naturals like metal.
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On April 21 2012 02:42 Skyro wrote:Show nested quote +On April 20 2012 19:57 Veetz wrote:
pretty sure this build will fall out of style.. i feel like this build is TOO SAFE like protoss can already get away with nexus first.. why build cannons anyways.. besides, with chrono boost you already get ahead in upgrades usually. you really dont need a forge that early.. everytime i see this build, i just build a 3rd cc and 2 gas and 2 ebays on 1 rax its sooo insanely greedy but toss can't do nothing bout it.
not to mention you won't be using chrono boost on forge that early since you wana use it on probes so i dunno if terran does anything other than fast 3rd and 2 ebays then i guess it could be good. It has been shown time and time again that 15 Nexus -> Gate is an instant loss to various cheese. This Gate -> Forge build is essentially an evolution of the 15 Nexus opening. And another thing that people aren't really mentioning is that this is really only viable on maps with a natural ramp/choke which you can defend with stationary cannon(s). It won't work on maps with wide open naturals like metal.
what ur saying? as if people proxied reapers in huge 4 player maps a lot...
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mid masters protoss on NA. I use this opening on all maps without a wide nat (eg. metalopolis). I don't scout until my 16 probe which puts down the nexus, so at my level it's quite viable against gas or gasless terran opening. What a lot of people are missing here is that one of the biggest benefits of this vs nexus > gateway is that you have to chrono units to be safe vs any early rax pressure, but with a single cannon (and solid watch tower control with your first zealot stalker) you can spend ALL your chrono on probes which makes a huge difference.
Transition to two base all-in from this build is very strong because you can saturate your Nat so quickly, and since a lot of terrans will take a fast third, something like a colossus timing if very powerful.
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On April 21 2012 02:20 unix04 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 21 2012 00:25 Nyast wrote:On April 20 2012 19:19 BronzeKnee wrote:
The ignorance surrounding this FFE vs Terran is pretty shocking. The only time you use this build is when you scout gasless expand by Terran. Makes sense in theory. But on which maps/positions can you go nexus 15 *after* you've scouted no gas from Terran ? In fact, ideally you should have scouted Terran before a potential 13 gate, else you're already risking ruinning your build. Let's say you arrive in Terran's base at 15 and you scout gas and no gate yet, what do you do ? Go for a 15 gate instead ? Or risk going for a 15 nexus versus a gas build ? There aren't too many maps that I can think of, where you can scout a Terran before your 13 gate  You shouldn't scout that late then. Make a decision. Send scout after pylon and decide on scouting. If you can't determine opponent build by then, put the gate down or just go blind and adjust as necessary.
Who said anything about scouting late ? Of course I was speaking of sending your scout at 9. But even with a scout at 9, you're only going to be able to scout the closest position on most maps, and that's it. If your opponent isn't there, going for a blind 15 nexus is risky.
So the condition for using that build 'safely" is to scout at 9, find that your opponent is indeed at the closest position, and that he's going for no gas expand. Anything else and you're taking a risk.
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here's a replay where protoss defends vs. a fairly fast medivac drop
terran opens 2 rax and upon scouting the FE he opts for fast medivac drops.
(5:00 factory)
(6:00 starport)
Warpgates finish well in time to get stalkers to defend the drops while cannons defend your natural from run by's
http://drop.sc/164143
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On April 21 2012 03:36 xTrim wrote:Show nested quote +On April 21 2012 02:42 Skyro wrote:On April 20 2012 19:57 Veetz wrote:
pretty sure this build will fall out of style.. i feel like this build is TOO SAFE like protoss can already get away with nexus first.. why build cannons anyways.. besides, with chrono boost you already get ahead in upgrades usually. you really dont need a forge that early.. everytime i see this build, i just build a 3rd cc and 2 gas and 2 ebays on 1 rax its sooo insanely greedy but toss can't do nothing bout it.
not to mention you won't be using chrono boost on forge that early since you wana use it on probes so i dunno if terran does anything other than fast 3rd and 2 ebays then i guess it could be good. It has been shown time and time again that 15 Nexus -> Gate is an instant loss to various cheese. This Gate -> Forge build is essentially an evolution of the 15 Nexus opening. And another thing that people aren't really mentioning is that this is really only viable on maps with a natural ramp/choke which you can defend with stationary cannon(s). It won't work on maps with wide open naturals like metal. what ur saying? as if people proxied reapers in huge 4 player maps a lot...
Actually reapers is one of the things that a 15 Nexus is able to handle ok with proper micro. The real threat is proxy/hidden rax with bunkers. You may not face it on ladder a lot but the pros do, and that's pretty much how this nexus -> forge build came about. It is simply an evolution of the 15 nexus opening.
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United Kingdom20327 Posts
On April 21 2012 04:47 TheRealDudeMan wrote:http://replayfu.com/r/wnLHGdThis is just plat play but figured I'd submit it to you guys. The FFE gets owned by me >.>
Platinum play, ie worthless for discussion. Ive gone 4-0 at the top of diamond with gateway gas forge nexus without even having a clue what i was doing because people are really that bad, and id imagine platinum players are a lot worse than random top 8 diamond terrans (who die horribly to this kind of opening)
I didnt even watch the games in question and had little info, super early forge and 1-2 cannons for defense with delayed cyber core when scouted gasless terran was pretty much all i was working with
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Platinum play, ie worthless for discussion. Ive gone 4-0 at the top of diamond with gateway gas forge nexus without even having a clue what i was doing because people are really that bad, and id imagine platinum players are a lot worse than random top 8 diamond terrans (who die horribly to this kind of opening)
Well it proves that you need to be a certain level to even consider attempting the FFE against Terran. The guy in my replay didn't scout for gas and I just pressured with marauders while taking my own expand.
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United Kingdom20327 Posts
On April 21 2012 05:17 TheRealDudeMan wrote:Show nested quote +Platinum play, ie worthless for discussion. Ive gone 4-0 at the top of diamond with gateway gas forge nexus without even having a clue what i was doing because people are really that bad, and id imagine platinum players are a lot worse than random top 8 diamond terrans (who die horribly to this kind of opening) Well it proves that you need to be a certain level to even consider attempting the FFE against Terran. The guy in my replay didn't scout for gas and I just pressured with marauders while taking my own expand.
If he didnt scout for gas in PvT he was doing something very wrong.
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I just dont see this working because of how many ways Terran can get in your base and still not be too far behind
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I've been using this build on ladder(GM last season) recently and it works extremely well. I think there are three main reasons for why this build is much stronger then 1 gate expo.
1. Stronger economy- a 15-18nexus into forge gives you a MUCH stronger economy than any possible 1gate expand. A 1gate expand also forces 2 chronoed zealots for safety, which are pretty useless early on. The cannon allows you to skip those 2 zealots(and chronos) and go straight to stalker.
2. Faster upgrades- I can generally start my upgrades around 5:10 to 5:30 in game minutes, which is much faster then a standard gate expo into 3gates into 2forge upgrades.
3. Stops/ sets up well against almost every terran cheese. - With proper probe scouting, this build (on larger maps) is basically impervious to most terran cheeses, forcing a macro game. This point is especially important because of the huge array of early timings terran has, and the limited information protoss gets early game.
Keep in mind many protoss throw down nexus before cybernetics core whenever they scout terran expo build, and this forge build only slows down cybernetics core/warpgates by 300minerals, which is not a big window of time at all.
A cannon + probe pull is strong enough to stop any early marine scv rush
gateway units/warpgates will be out in time to stop any multiple rax stim marine marauder timing.
Without stim, cannons actually fare well against marauders, so stimless 2 rax attacks are very unlikely to work. The strength in stimless 2rax lies with concussive shells, which (obviously) don't work against cannons.
Will have stalkers + multiple finished warpgates by the time anything involving medivac/elevator comes out.
vs 1-1-1 the best(or at least most standard) counter was 1 gate expo to get enough economy to power 5gates and robo, but this build gives you even more economy so it is even better vs 1-1-1 than 1gate expo.
The two greatest weaknesses of this build would be reaper rush and a marine tank timing push(which hits much earlier then standard 1-1-1 ), but as a recent GSL game showed, it fairs well even against the latter.
For people who don't see this working, there's a reason GSL code S protosses have suddenly all been switching to this build, it simply outclasses 1 gate expo in almost every way.
Basic build order is pylon, nexus, forge, pylon, cannon, gate, gas x2, core when gate is finished, stalker when core is finished.
Artosis says there are three variations, but what he really means is that he has seen 3 variations in replays. Similar to pvz, after the basic build order, you can do whatever you feel like. twilight/robo/gate/3rd nexus/2nd forge are all viable options.
The 3rd nexus option is one people don't seem to understand much. Basically many terran counter FFE with 3orbital, so the rush 3rd nexus is a "mindgame' counter vs that build. If a terran scouts your third nexus building and does a dedicated 2base push, it would be very hard to hold off.
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Did people forget about MKP's 3 reactor factory response to this build? It's pretty hilarious how hopeless protoss is against that with this opening.
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I believe this build will be the predominant opening for PvT within a few months. Code S protosses wouldn't be doing it in GSL if they hadn't already considered the benefits and drawbacks. Fan explained very well why this build is just better than 1 gate expo, and at this point I doubt it is going away any time soon.
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I've been doing FFE vs Terran in Diamond league for quite a while, without having seen anyone else do it. I just hate making gateway units vs Terran so I found a way to avoid doing so as much as possible.
If the Terran goes Reaper first and has good micro, you're dead. Fortunately, you can scout whether this is actually happening - if the Terran still hasn't made his tech lab by the time he kills your scouting probe, the Reaper will not arrive in time to slaughter you.
Here's my working build order when I scout no gas. I provide no assurance that this is a good build order.
9 pylon, scout
16 nexus
17 pylon
18 forge
20 assimilator + gateway
100% forge: 1 cannon
Follow up with, when available:
assimilator, cannon, assimilator, cycore, assimilator, cannon
Chrono boost probes twice before placing the Nexus, resume chronoboosting once pylon #2 completes, and transfer probes as the Nexus finishes; your probes double as defensive units if the opponent tries to run past the cannons. At each stage of the opening, if they go all-in you can hold having lost only half your probes.
Once they scout you, keep an eye on the SCV's behavior. A proxy rax can be a pain.
I transition into multiple Robos and a Stargate because, again, I hate Gateway units. But the basic framework should work for more basic play.
As I see it, the main advantage you gain by doing a forge expand is getting early gas that you don't have to immediately spend on stalkers just to stay alive.
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Fan, that was a really good description of the things that terrans commonly do now, but I was wondering in these games have the terran's you've played or seen matches of made significant adjustments to their build order? I would just think that they'd be able to simulate stephano style zvp by taking advantage of the timing that protoss won't really be able to do much until minute 7:30 or so at the earliest. In that way wouldn't it be extremely difficult for protoss to deal with 1 rax fe into third orbital and double engineering bay, especially if the terran realizes he does not need to build bunkers for defense for protoss timing attacks, that saved money could potentially lead to even a 4th orbital, example, cut 2 bunkers and one rax?
Another issue is how would this build deal with a 3 orbital mech play, like a super economic version of the 1/1/1 off 3 base, as once again there shouldn't be worry from the terran about a protoss timing attack? Also with the delayed robo tech how do you distinguish between 3 orbital and two base play since the response would be very different between the two, i.e. fast third or mass units? I do agree with all your points though, nexus first econ is definitely way way way stronger than 1 gate fe econ, just have a these few questions about it.
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On April 21 2012 09:13 Fan wrote:
I've been using this build on ladder(GM last season) recently and it works extremely well. I think there are three main reasons for why this build is much stronger then 1 gate expo.
1. Stronger economy- a 15-18nexus into forge gives you a MUCH stronger economy than any possible 1gate expand. A 1gate expand also forces 2 chronoed zealots for safety, which are pretty useless early on. The cannon allows you to skip those 2 zealots(and chronos) and go straight to stalker.
2. Faster upgrades- I can generally start my upgrades around 5:10 to 5:30 in game minutes, which is much faster then a standard gate expo into 3gates into 2forge upgrades.
3. Stops/ sets up well against almost every terran cheese. - With proper probe scouting, this build (on larger maps) is basically impervious to most terran cheeses, forcing a macro game. This point is especially important because of the huge array of early timings terran has, and the limited information protoss gets early game.
Keep in mind many protoss throw down nexus before cybernetics core whenever they scout terran expo build, and this forge build only slows down cybernetics core/warpgates by 300minerals, which is not a big window of time at all.
A cannon + probe pull is strong enough to stop any early marine scv rush
gateway units/warpgates will be out in time to stop any multiple rax stim marine marauder timing.
Without stim, cannons actually fare well against marauders, so stimless 2 rax attacks are very unlikely to work. The strength in stimless 2rax lies with concussive shells, which (obviously) don't work against cannons.
Will have stalkers + multiple finished warpgates by the time anything involving medivac/elevator comes out.
vs 1-1-1 the best(or at least most standard) counter was 1 gate expo to get enough economy to power 5gates and robo, but this build gives you even more economy so it is even better vs 1-1-1 than 1gate expo.
The two greatest weaknesses of this build would be reaper rush and a marine tank timing push(which hits much earlier then standard 1-1-1 ), but as a recent GSL game showed, it fairs well even against the latter.
For people who don't see this working, there's a reason GSL code S protosses have suddenly all been switching to this build, it simply outclasses 1 gate expo in almost every way.
Basic build order is pylon, nexus, forge, pylon, cannon, gate, gas x2, core when gate is finished, stalker when core is finished.
Artosis says there are three variations, but what he really means is that he has seen 3 variations in replays. Similar to pvz, after the basic build order, you can do whatever you feel like. twilight/robo/gate/3rd nexus/2nd forge are all viable options.
The 3rd nexus option is one people don't seem to understand much. Basically many terran counter FFE with 3orbital, so the rush 3rd nexus is a "mindgame' counter vs that build. If a terran scouts your third nexus building and does a dedicated 2base push, it would be very hard to hold off.
most of this post is just not true. This build doesn't give you a much stronger economy then a quick 1 gate expo where you expo before any unit. This build cuts probes slightly for the forge timing and has a cannon which for economical purposes is pretty useless. Also it's economy is slightly better but your also telegraphing to terran he is free to do something very greedy since you have a cannon AND super late warpgate tech.
Also against marine tank this build is not good at all as that will hit before you have warpgate tech complete. The GSL game was MVP going marine tank after doing a gasless expo, in that case he will hit too late ofcourse. If your opponent 1-1-1 or something this build has more trouble to hold then a greedy 1 gate FE really.
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On April 20 2012 18:02 Azzur wrote:
In my opinion, I think it's a very weak opening since the protoss is basically telegraphing to the terran that there will be no early aggression.
Well MVP put on early aggression with a marine/seige tank SCV all-in and this still held.
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@Recurve I have held terrans do every kind of allin after scouting this build, from 1 base full scv pull to gasless expo into 6 rax and everywhere in between. As of now, I still believe with proper probe/stalker scouting, they aren't much of an issue.
As for the fast triple orbital, there are several things you can do. I personally like getting robo as soon as core finishes, and tack on 3 gates afterwards. This way, I have faster scouting and can scout 3rd orbital and respond in time.
I have seen other people( like oz) do things like blindly rush a 3rd nexus,and just mass gateways. If terran did 3oc, then he is in a great position, if terran does a timing while nexus is building he can simply cancel, and if nexus is finished, chances are his warpgates are also finished and he will have enough units to have a good chance at defending.
There is no way to magically tell if terran is 2basing or 3ocing early on, but both options above should work fine. Also, I have never seen 3oc mech play, so I can't really comment on that.
Just keep in mind with you starting upgrades so early, even if a terran goes 3oc into 2ebay, you should still be ahead on upgrades and ok in economy, and PvT late game is (imo) much more manageable then PvT early-mid.
@Markwerf
Nexus first always gives a stronger economy then gate into nexus. The extra 150 minerals there does make a difference, similar to how in pvz forge nexus is much weaker economically then nexus forge.
Yes, a unit-less, gas-less 1 gate expo would be comparable in economy to this build, but I still believe this build gives a better economy because of the faster nexus + 2-3 saved chronoboosts that are spent on zealot zealot can now be spent on probe production instead.
and why is most of the post not true if you just address the first few lines(which are true...)
Obviously this build also has its weaknesses, and I did list that a marine tank timing is (probably) one of them. Nevertheless, with proper probe scouting, protoss should be able to identify the possiblity of a 1 base marine tank/ 1-1-1 opening, and can redistribute chronos from nexus to warpgate research accordingly, so it's not like marine tank will auto win vs this build.
Also 1-1-1 opening for terran is depot rax gas orbital depot, and no decent protoss who scouts that will ever go gasless unitless 1 gate expo, so your point about comparing economy vs 1-1-1 is irrelevant. The fastest 1gate expo a toss will do in that situation is after cybercore. That is why I say nexus forge is better then 1gate expo vs 1-1-1, the economy differential in that situation is huge.
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EPT
