EPTIf you're really afraid of an all-in, you can make that second cannon and be only 150 minerals more invested into defense. Then start a third cannon a little later, and then just cancel it if the all-in doesn't come. That helps cover the timing window for an all-in while you wait for Stalkers to come out (which basically close the window at that point). Building a cannon and canceling it is cheap--think of it like building a Pylon to block a Hatchery and screw up your opponent's timings.
[D] The new FFE in PvT - Page 6
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ineversmile
United States583 Posts
If you're really afraid of an all-in, you can make that second cannon and be only 150 minerals more invested into defense. Then start a third cannon a little later, and then just cancel it if the all-in doesn't come. That helps cover the timing window for an all-in while you wait for Stalkers to come out (which basically close the window at that point). Building a cannon and canceling it is cheap--think of it like building a Pylon to block a Hatchery and screw up your opponent's timings. | ||
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Doz
United States145 Posts
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SuperPro
99 Posts
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Snoodles
401 Posts
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iAmJeffReY
United States4262 Posts
On April 28 2012 22:35 Doz wrote: I think this build straight up auto-loses to 4-5 rax reaper once the nexus and forge are scouted. Have used that response myself in the past with great success No, it doesn't work. If they scout gas they go nexus -> gate. If they scout gasless, nexus -> forge -> gate. 4-5 reapers do not work, they come too late. All of you saying reapers is auto win are stupid. Probes can wait for reapers, they can steer them away. Decent probe micro can stop reapers. 4-5 reapers off 1 rax take forever, and protoss will already be set for their 6+ gate ass roll of you. | ||
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iSTime
1579 Posts
On April 29 2012 01:47 iAmJeffReY wrote: No, it doesn't work. If they scout gas they go nexus -> gate. If they scout gasless, nexus -> forge -> gate. 4-5 reapers do not work, they come too late. All of you saying reapers is auto win are stupid. Probes can wait for reapers, they can steer them away. Decent probe micro can stop reapers. 4-5 reapers off 1 rax take forever, and protoss will already be set for their 6+ gate ass roll of you. 4-5 rax reaper != 4-5 reapers off 1 rax. However, yeah, 4-5 rax reaper after a gasless opening would take way too long to work. | ||
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iAmJeffReY
United States4262 Posts
On April 29 2012 01:53 iSTime wrote: 4-5 rax reaper != 4-5 reapers off 1 rax. However, yeah, 4-5 rax reaper after a gasless opening would take way too long to work. It would have to be a 12/14 2 rax and I feel protoss 9 scouting would see this, and not Nexus-forge-gateway, and would do a standard nexus->2 gate -> core double stalker after 1-2 zeals and hold any reaper attack with ease... Of course, map dependent on both sides, but 9 scout gets in a LOT of the time on a LOT of the maps. Especially since there are so many 2 player maps, and forced spawn '3 player' maps | ||
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wheelchairs
United States145 Posts
also, in oz vs maru group D recently + Show Spoiler + oz did this build. Upon scouting, maru canceled his expansion and build 4 additional rax outside oz's base. 5 rax marine pressure + pulled about 15 scvs. Oz easily held it with one gate going, 2 cannons, and pulling probes.as long as you scout effectively, this build can survive a lot. | ||
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boxman22
Canada430 Posts
On April 29 2012 00:21 SuperPro wrote: I think LostShadows build would beat this. If you would direct yourselves to http://blip.tv/day9tv/day-9-daily-445-p1-lastshadow-s-tvp-6rax-opening-6089546. It is a command center first followed by a bunker and 6 raxes. The attack comes around 7 ish mins with around 10 marines and 2 scvs, while rallying marines to his base. You can also delay this attack by about 30 seconds to have around 16 marines. It works quite well versus protoss. Not only does it give you great economy but it allows you to kill protoss early. After this attack, you can tech really hard by grabbing all 4 gases, throwing down double Engineering bay, factory and 2 techlabs for stim combat shield, as well as a third, depending on how successful the attack was. If you do no damage, naturally you wouldnt tech this hard, however, you can still get all of these things relatively quickly while remaining defended. Actually it is literally as hard a counter as you can possibly find. You just need to scout a little and put 2-3 more cannons down (maybe that's even an overreaction). I just played it on ladder and absolutely crushed it on ohana, which was even more difficult than it otherwise might have been because, after seeing the cannons, he tried to go around through the rocks and avoided 1.5 of my 3 cannons (avoided 1 only half the time). I then got 2 colossi and range and rolled him over a couple minutes later... | ||
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wheelchairs
United States145 Posts
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AlphaDotCom
United States43 Posts
On April 29 2012 01:53 iSTime wrote: 4-5 rax reaper != 4-5 reapers off 1 rax. However, yeah, 4-5 rax reaper after a gasless opening would take way too long to work. "!=" lolol u cant assume everyone that plays sc2 knows what that is. Do you also say, if(bunker=built) build robo; else dont; we should all talk like this, it would be entertaining. | ||
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tuestresfat
2555 Posts
On April 29 2012 04:32 AlphaDotCom wrote: "!=" lolol u cant assume everyone that plays sc2 knows what that is. Do you also say, if(bunker=built) build robo; else dont; we should all talk like this, it would be entertaining. for(race = toss, oponnent = terran, qq++){ System.out.println("TvP so imba") } | ||
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Drowsy
United States4876 Posts
On the other hand, playing 2 base vs 3 orbitals is honestly not that horrible if you start your armor upgrade like a full 2 game minutes before you normally would be able to with a traditional gateway expand. Additionally, there's no way he'll be landing his 3rd orbital before about 9 or 10 minutes at which point you can very easily have started your own third. It's a good build, but you just have to be very conscious of when he's going to try for some kind of 2 base bust and not over-react if he doesn't. Kind of involves some guess work at times. | ||
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saltymango
United States120 Posts
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Sekijitsu
United States47 Posts
On April 29 2012 06:50 saltymango wrote: I wrote a guide which will be up on team dignitas website pretty soon check it out! Would you be so kind as to link here as well? | ||
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avilo
United States4100 Posts
On April 24 2012 09:25 NrGmonk wrote: Avilo's claims, although regularly whiny, are more informed than 99% of people who post on these forums, even when he talks about his offrace. Eh, yes I know my strats, i also use multiple warp prisms with high templar, something Protosses currently don't do because they like getting templar EMP'd. I also make cannon rings with templar patrolling in between so you can never be dropped...ever. If you put 4-12 templars in 2-3 speed prisms with a max deathball Terran can never kill your army and you are always guaranteed to get off 2-4 storms which of course means Terran loses. Replays here, have fun abusing PvT lategame  a bunch of these should be the nexus into forge into gateway expand as described in this thread. I believe there is also a game where Terran tries to 2 rax allin and just as said in this thread, you simply scout it and build 2-3 more cannons + pull probes and you are ahead 15-20 workers after that.https://rapidshare.com/files/4222639651/aviloPvTFFEreplays.rar | ||
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Dreamlike
United States33 Posts
On April 29 2012 14:25 avilo wrote: If you put 4-12 templars in 2-3 speed prisms with a max deathball Terran can never kill your army and you are always guaranteed to get off 2-4 storms which of course means Terran loses. Wait a second here...if my calculations are correct and 2+2 does in fact = 4 then that would mean that protoss players would actually have it even easier lategame? | ||
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uLysSeS1
Germany210 Posts
On April 29 2012 14:25 avilo wrote: Eh, yes I know my strats, i also use multiple warp prisms with high templar, something Protosses currently don't do because they like getting templar EMP'd. I also make cannon rings with templar patrolling in between so you can never be dropped...ever. If you put 4-12 templars in 2-3 speed prisms with a max deathball Terran can never kill your army and you are always guaranteed to get off 2-4 storms which of course means Terran loses. Replays here, have fun abusing PvT lategame a bunch of these should be the nexus into forge into gateway expand as described in this thread. I believe there is also a game where Terran tries to 2 rax allin and just as said in this thread, you simply scout it and build 2-3 more cannons + pull probes and you are ahead 15-20 workers after that.https://rapidshare.com/files/4222639651/aviloPvTFFEreplays.rar Thanks for the pack, but those games are fairly chaotic, do you have some more standard games that demonstrate your points? | ||
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Nyast
Belgium554 Posts
On April 29 2012 14:25 avilo wrote: Eh, yes I know my strats, i also use multiple warp prisms with high templar, something Protosses currently don't do because they like getting templar EMP'd. I also make cannon rings with templar patrolling in between so you can never be dropped...ever. If you put 4-12 templars in 2-3 speed prisms with a max deathball Terran can never kill your army and you are always guaranteed to get off 2-4 storms which of course means Terran loses. Like that second game where you lost 2 prisms full of 8 templars, to vikings ? In any case, it's good to see the build in action, but I'm a bit disappointed by the games. The last 3 aren't even about FFE and have no place in a pack named "FFE". The other games are all long macro games where the terran didn't put much pressure ( or bad one ). Would you have any replay demonstrating terran going fast marine / helion drop, rines/tanks/scvs 8'30 rush, or 1-base all-ins vs FFE ? I think that's a lot more important than macro games where terran is 10 scvs behind in the early game and does nothing about it :p | ||
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50bani
Romania480 Posts
Did Choya build his Forge or Gate first? This SCV pull might actually work on 2 player maps. LOL if this is the counter. | ||
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