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As many nerd ballers are well aware, a new build has emerged in the PvT match-up as of late. This build is essentially a Forge fast expand geared towards providing Toss a strong economy as well as the potential to get ahead on upgrades relatively quickly. The first time I saw the build was this most recent season of GSL during the Code S round of 32 matches. The most recent example of the build I saw was with HerO in his last two matches with MVP.
I'm wondering, aside from the more obvious and basic reasons, what are the benefits provided by this opening? Additionally, Artosis has mentioned the existence of something like 3 variations on this build. Are there any Protoss players out there who have a basic grasp of the build order? If so, would you mind providing a basic run down with some notes on scouting, responses, and tech paths etc?
I'm interested in not only learning the build, but learning why the build has emerged and what it offers. When I have the time I plan on rewatching the matches where the build was utilized so that I can try and get a basic understanding of the build. However, until then I would like to pick the brains of those of you who have a higher understanding the game/build.
tldr; This season we have seen a new kind of FFE build in PvT. What does this build offer and what is the basic build order? What prompted Toss players to develop this build?
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I feel like this leaves you more vulnerable to elevator timings. Since you're delaying your gateway, helions and other things will create more trouble for you if the terran just decides to go straight for factory/starport. I think that you can be safe against everything using just nex->gateway, save something like a helion drop.
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I've seen this build used on ladder a few times (albeit it probably is a crappy unrefined version), but all I did was put down double gas as soon as i scout it (if I haven't already) and go for a straight shot into starport. I've been able to succeed with just ONE drop ship full of marines/marauders with stim. I'm not sure how viable it is unless you have like perfect control/micro like the guys in gsl can pull off.
But I'm sure if people experiment with it there can be defenses created against these specific early drop timings.
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Well first of all I think it is better to clearly label the build what it actually is so as to not confuse people, which is Nexus -> Forge, because there is no reason to go Forge -> Nexus like there is against Zerg. That's why I'm not a fan of labeling it a "FFE." The obvious advantage of course a better economy via the nexus first. The other obvious advantage is access to upgrades earlier, which hedges the need to go double forge somewhat.
From there I haven't seen any particular set build. I've seen Oz go fast 3rd, seen twilight, seen hero go robo. It's just an economic opening, with its main drawback being similar to the drawbacks faced by FFE from PvZ, which is slower tech. I'm not sure if terrans are completely adjusted the what and how much they can get away with in terms of economic or tech greed when they spot a Nexus -> forge opening from protoss. Personally I'm staying clear of the build until I see it a bit more and terrans have time to adjust.
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On April 20 2012 15:17 Skyro wrote:
Well first of all I think it is better to clearly label the build what it actually is so as to not confuse people, which is Nexus -> Forge, because there is no reason to go Forge -> Nexus like there is against Zerg. That's why I'm not a fan of labeling it a "FFE." The obvious advantage of course a better economy via the nexus first. The other obvious advantage is access to upgrades earlier, which hedges the need to go double forge somewhat.
From there I haven't seen any particular set build. I've seen Oz go fast 3rd, seen twilight, seen hero go robo. It's just an economic opening, with its main drawback being similar to the drawbacks faced by FFE from PvZ, which is slower tech. I'm not sure if terrans are completely adjusted the what and how much they can get away with in terms of economic or tech greed when they spot a Nexus -> forge opening from protoss. Personally I'm staying clear of the build until I see it a bit more and terrans have time to adjust.
Indeed, I don't really have any intentions of implementing the build just yet. I wanted to try and understand it a bit more before doing so, and I simply wanted to take a gander at the basic build order being utilized to help facilitate my understanding and what it offers.
I was unsure as to whether the forge was actually being thrown first or if it was a variation on a nexus first build. Its interesting because I had thoughts of dropping a forge and gateway when going nexus first as when I do it I noticed there is a brief window where one has the minerals to do so.
What does everyone think of the trade off offered by this build? Certainly you get an economic boost in addition to faster upgrades but is the delay to tech worth these two advantages? Of course it depends on what the opponent is doing but in a general sense, given the fact that Protoss is essentially required to combat Terran and their emphasis on ranged units with higher tech/AoE damage dealing units, is it worth it?
Also, I know Oz used this build in addition to HerO in the most recent GSL matches. Where else can I see the build being used? I heard that someone used it in NASL recently...I think it was SlayerS Alicia...can anyone confirm? Thanks
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Blazinghand
United States25551 Posts
This build is a 15 nexus build. It goes for a 15 nexus, followed by a forge and typically a single cannon at the front of the natural. I've run into it a couple of times on Shakuras Plateau, a map where Nex-first builds are typically used.
This build is best contrasted with the Nexus First -> Gateway builds that are typical in TvP.
Advantages:
You get quicker upgrades
Cannon makes you fairly safe
Disadvantages:
Later warpgate and later advanced structures
Gives up early Stalker-based map control:
--Terran able to 1 rax expo expo
--Scouting limited
I find this sort of opening works best with gateway heavy builds (quick upgrades into templar tech) as opposed to the sort of colossus-based play that likes to get the robo earlier.
As a terran my typical response to this build is either to make a quick third base (1 rax expo expo) or to try to half-ass a 6rax allin.
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Aren't early Marauders pretty good against this? I would think, with the cannon investment and low unit count.
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This build only works because it's very good against gasless expands from Terran as Marines in the early stages of the game without Medivacs or Stim are very weak against Photon Cannons.
a 2 rax concussive opening or a banshee opening will punish this very hard as the Cannon is obviously very imobile.
That said, with gasless expands being the predominant standard TvP opening at the moment it does make this build somewhat viable.
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In my opinion, I think it's a very weak opening since the protoss is basically telegraphing to the terran that there will be no early aggression.
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Blazinghand
United States25551 Posts
On April 20 2012 18:02 Azzur wrote:
In my opinion, I think it's a very weak opening since the protoss is basically telegraphing to the terran that there will be no early aggression.
I think the optimal response for a terran going for a gasless FE is just to take an amazingly quick 3rd CC. I personally lack the mechanics to really make something like this work, but the basic theorycraft reasoning I give to low-level toss who ask why they can't FFE in PvT is that the Terran is free to take a quick third without fear.
1 rax expo expo is probably the strongest answer. I've got a replay of me trying it and sucking badly, but I haven't seen this build enough to really know how to deal with it.
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I still think this build is a little weak. As a Terran, when I see it I just throw down 4rax and pull all my workers, and with the late gateway, you'll not have enough stalkers to defend, or have them quick enough to scout it coming to build 135781983751 cannons.
Equally, as it becomes more popular, I feel more Terrans will open gas (I know I have started to anyway, as gasless FE feels a little predictable), and reactor hellion is a serious counter to this form of fast nexus.
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nexus first vs terran is not safe(maybe there's 1 map u can get away with it). 1 gate expand is the riskiest opening you should be using on the ladder. In the gsl they are meta gaming each other, and taking a risk based on the player they are playing. Even a 1 gate expand can be dicey on a small map.
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The ignorance surrounding this FFE vs Terran is pretty shocking. The only time you use this build is when you scout gasless expand by Terran. Thus the Medivacs will be greatly delayed coming out as will any kind of Marauder push or fast Reaper or Banshee. Obviously any of those things could do massive damage to you early, which is why you only use it vs gasless openings. And Cannons are very good vs Marines and SCV's and can hold you over until you get your Gateways out. If you scout a big Marines/SCV all-in, just build more Cannons, Chrono Zealots and pull Probes as necessary. So this build is very safe vs gasless Terrans early.
Another advantage with this build is that the early Forge means you can start getting upgrades a lot quicker, and thus with a lot of chrono used on the Forge, you don't have to go double Forge later. So while a Nexus -> Gateway opening gets Warpgate out quicker, a Nexus -> Forge opening gets out upgrades faster and is a bit safer. If you want to push the game into the later stages and don't plan to apply early pressure, then opening with a Forge after Nexus makes a lot of sense.
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pretty sure this build will fall out of style.. i feel like this build is TOO SAFE like protoss can already get away with nexus first.. why build cannons anyways.. besides, with chrono boost you already get ahead in upgrades usually. you really dont need a forge that early.. everytime i see this build, i just build a 3rd cc and 2 gas and 2 ebays on 1 rax its sooo insanely greedy but toss can't do nothing bout it.
not to mention you won't be using chrono boost on forge that early since you wana use it on probes so i dunno if terran does anything other than fast 3rd and 2 ebays then i guess it could be good.
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I thought they went fast third with this build
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The premise of this build I think is to make the game go straight to midgame, and establish an upgrade lead. It avoids Toss weaknesses and boosts Toss strength, at the expense of letting Terran do anything. Unfortunately, Terran cannot do much against well upgraded Toss late game, so the Protoss player doesn't care what Terran does. As long as Protoss gets that third with decent upgrades and gets the tech rolling, Protoss is at a colossal advantage.
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I don't really like it, is one of those builds for "pros". On ladder every terran goes 3 rax medivac or 2 rax medivac and simply crush you.
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I tried openings like this about 6 months ago, any economic advantage you did have goes out the window at the sight of the first reaper when you realise you've only just dropped a cyber core and its already wreaking havoc (without any hard stats, in my experience i'd estimate i see a quick reaper in maybe 25-30% of PvT's from a 1rax reaper expand)
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On April 20 2012 21:28 tsango wrote:
I tried openings like this about 6 months ago, any economic advantage you did have goes out the window at the sight of the first reaper when you realise you've only just dropped a cyber core and its already wreaking havoc (without any hard stats, in my experience i'd estimate i see a quick reaper in maybe 25-30% of PvT's from a 1rax reaper expand)
well I think we saw hero scout in time and go for this build as reaction to seeing a gasless expand
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Like I said here, I find this build really bad. Compared it to PvZ, the zerg's standard reaction is taking a 3rd, which the toss can then punish/pressure and force a response. This you obviously can't against a terran, since he will make it inside his base and only float it over when he is ready/saturated on 2 bases.
About following this up with a quick 3rd, well all I can say is that in game 2 NASL Thorzain vs Alicia, Alicia blindly went fast 3rd Nexus(since in g1, he had opened up with the FFE and Tzain had gone 1rax CC CC, so guess he assumed the same). Well Tzain ended up crushing Alicia with ease.
As I see it, there isn't really much advantage with something like this, compared to just nexus first into gateways. The only strength is the quick upgrades, so my thinking would be, go FFE into +2 armor chargelot/immo bust or something along those lines, assuming that the terran goes fast 3rd CC.
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you ca only do this if you scout gasless, but the cool thing is if you 9 scout ad its a 2 player spawn map which i think 4 maps are you will always see if a terran got gas. If yes, drop your gate, and if no you can try this out. Also, similarly on 4 player maps if you scout them first or second with no gas you can try this out, maps like shakuras, antiga, metropolis, entombed, tal darim i think this would be good on. You can already go nexus first vs terran but can you chrono workers if they dont let you scout the expo;, you are basically trading the first couple zealots you are forced to make blind for a canon The forge allows you to tech greedier while providing great defense vs marine scv all ins. Stop posting about terrans going quick reaper or medivac to beat this because in order to do so the terran would need to show no gas then double gas while faking an expo with a bunker at the front of expo which greatly delays either of these. If you scout gas and do this build you deserve to lose.
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Putting that single cannon in the front appears to make you safe from two or three marines poking at your front door, but I don't know how you're going to have enough units if a concussive shell push (or any decent 2rax pressure) comes... I don't really want to spend 600 minerals throwing down cannons at my choke... The best defense is a good offense. Plus, Protoss already has the upgrade advantage with chrono boost  Why risk the entire early game by having no units and only static defense?
Also, you might lack the tech/ macro to stop a banshee rush or fast bio drop in your main, right? Although this cannon in front might make a Terran want to rush a siege tank with siege mode and then rape your face, making mech more viable! 
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On April 20 2012 22:03 DarkPlasmaBall wrote: ...or any decent 2rax pressure... Also, you might lack the tech/ macro to stop a banshee rush or fast bio drop in your main, right? Although this cannon in front might make a Terran want to rush a siege tank with siege mode and then rape your face, making mech more viable!
Actually a FFE with a wall can hold a 2rax, but as you said, mech is really good against this.
When i scout this i lie back and prepare a 2base mech push with 2factorys reactored, 2factories techlab and one starport for raven. siege mode, blue flame and +1 wreck this very hard. If he goes super fast collossi you just scout it and dont get a raven, but vikings and for stalkers just a pdd. I ave never lost with this build against FFE and people used it a lot lately.
(Plat-Diamond EU... So it might be just me and my opponents being utter shit)
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would anyone please stop theorycrafting and run a game where you rush for a hellion drop expand (no blue flame) vs a buddy protoss where he would make FFE into double (?) gateway + cyber.... please check the timings and stalker count...
I am at work, but I am intrigued by how you can defend your probe line with the hellion drop. Of course, you can add a cannon at your mineral line, but hell, 150 minerals that early in the game is a gamble.
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On April 20 2012 22:15 WizardofGGG wrote:Show nested quote +On April 20 2012 22:03 DarkPlasmaBall wrote: ...or any decent 2rax pressure... Also, you might lack the tech/ macro to stop a banshee rush or fast bio drop in your main, right? Although this cannon in front might make a Terran want to rush a siege tank with siege mode and then rape your face, making mech more viable! Actually a FFE with a wall can hold a 2rax, but as you said, mech is really good against this. When i scout this i lie back and prepare a 2base mech push with 2factorys reactored, 2factories techlab and one starport for raven. siege mode, blue flame and +1 wreck this very hard. If he goes super fast collossi you just scout it and dont get a raven, but vikings and for stalkers just a pdd. I ave never lost with this build against FFE and people used it a lot lately. (Plat-Diamond EU... So it might be just me and my opponents being utter shit)
That's pretty interesting As a Protoss, I would definitely feel constantly behind my Terran opponent. A fast upgrade doesn't do much if I have no units.
(Also, I'm always extremely hesitant to wall off against Terran. It always seems that there's something they can pick off with their bio... some sweet spot they can find to position their marines or marauders in and pick away at a tech structure. But maybe I just have shitty structure placement lol.)
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As a terran I either 1 rax FE where I put a 3rd CC down before adding 2 more rax or if I scout the nexus first I may proxy(/maka) two additional rax and do marine scv all in.
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On April 20 2012 19:57 Veetz wrote:
pretty sure this build will fall out of style.. i feel like this build is TOO SAFE like protoss can already get away with nexus first.. why build cannons anyways.. besides, with chrono boost you already get ahead in upgrades usually. you really dont need a forge that early.. everytime i see this build, i just build a 3rd cc and 2 gas and 2 ebays on 1 rax its sooo insanely greedy but toss can't do nothing bout it.
not to mention you won't be using chrono boost on forge that early since you wana use it on probes so i dunno if terran does anything other than fast 3rd and 2 ebays then i guess it could be good.
Okay buddy how about we play a ONE game where you will do nexus first without forge and i will show you how easily can terran kill you early even if he was decided to go gasless expand... Even though Axslav still says that it is possible to hold off 4rax scv allin with just two gateways which is only true when terran is rly bad or messes up terribly (sorry but hero vs puma on antiga anyone?) So no its not true that this build is TOO SAFE lol. In fact terran is much more safe while doing equivalents of the builds(CC first,1rax FE) than protoss ever could be.
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On April 20 2012 22:15 WizardofGGG wrote:Show nested quote +On April 20 2012 22:03 DarkPlasmaBall wrote: ...or any decent 2rax pressure... Also, you might lack the tech/ macro to stop a banshee rush or fast bio drop in your main, right? Although this cannon in front might make a Terran want to rush a siege tank with siege mode and then rape your face, making mech more viable! Actually a FFE with a wall can hold a 2rax, but as you said, mech is really good against this. When i scout this i lie back and prepare a 2base mech push with 2factorys reactored, 2factories techlab and one starport for raven. siege mode, blue flame and +1 wreck this very hard. If he goes super fast collossi you just scout it and dont get a raven, but vikings and for stalkers just a pdd. I ave never lost with this build against FFE and people used it a lot lately. (Plat-Diamond EU... So it might be just me and my opponents being utter shit)
These posts utterly miss the point of the OP. How is a 2 base mech push a counter to a NEXUS FIRST? By then, the opener does not depend any more, and nexus first guarantees you a superior economy at that point, so if you are winning with it, its not due to the opener.
If you rush to seige tanks to deal with a cannon at the front, I think its already paid for itself, and nexus first is a hard counter to 1/1/1.
Edit: Yes, this is a nexus first build with a forge included, not a ffe. The cannon is completely optional and scouting dependent.
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On April 20 2012 22:37 YosHGo wrote:Show nested quote +On April 20 2012 19:57 Veetz wrote:
pretty sure this build will fall out of style.. i feel like this build is TOO SAFE like protoss can already get away with nexus first.. why build cannons anyways.. besides, with chrono boost you already get ahead in upgrades usually. you really dont need a forge that early.. everytime i see this build, i just build a 3rd cc and 2 gas and 2 ebays on 1 rax its sooo insanely greedy but toss can't do nothing bout it.
not to mention you won't be using chrono boost on forge that early since you wana use it on probes so i dunno if terran does anything other than fast 3rd and 2 ebays then i guess it could be good. Okay buddy how about we play a ONE game where you will do nexus first without forge and i will show you how easily can terran kill you early even if he was decided to go gasless expand... Even though Axslav still says that it is possible to hold off 4rax scv allin with just two gateways which is only true when terran is rly bad or messes up terribly (sorry but hero vs puma on antiga anyone?) So no its not true that this build is TOO SAFE lol. In fact terran is much more safe while doing equivalents of the builds(CC first,1rax FE) than protoss ever could be.
Agreed. The barracks into bunker makes any equivalent build from terran much safer than any non forge gasless opening from toss.
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On April 20 2012 22:15 WizardofGGG wrote:Show nested quote +On April 20 2012 22:03 DarkPlasmaBall wrote: ...or any decent 2rax pressure... Also, you might lack the tech/ macro to stop a banshee rush or fast bio drop in your main, right? Although this cannon in front might make a Terran want to rush a siege tank with siege mode and then rape your face, making mech more viable! Actually a FFE with a wall can hold a 2rax, but as you said, mech is really good against this. When i scout this i lie back and prepare a 2base mech push with 2factorys reactored, 2factories techlab and one starport for raven. siege mode, blue flame and +1 wreck this very hard. If he goes super fast collossi you just scout it and dont get a raven, but vikings and for stalkers just a pdd. I ave never lost with this build against FFE and people used it a lot lately. (Plat-Diamond EU... So it might be just me and my opponents being utter shit)
watch hero vs mvp in gsl, mvp did fastest possible 2 base marie tank push vs this and hero had immortals in time, mvp cut a lot to do this ad still hero held, if a push hit later this you would have a better chance of holding then with 1 gate fe because you went nexus first and built 1 cannon instead of early zealots. What you are saying would be like saying if a protoss goes forge fe I just rush for spire off 2 base and he cant hold cause he put up a forge. Most people in lower leagues dont have adequate scouting, put up a forge before nexus and blindly get cannons regardless of if they saw gas or not. They just dont know how to react correctly to what they see or dont even look. I base play where you double gas ad do a timing after showing gasless might work but given that I watched 8+ gsl games terrans scouted this and did opt to do so im not too sure considering that given the popularity to the build in korea, terrans should know whats good against it. Triple cc is already popular vs nexus first or gate fes, the only advantage a nexus first ito gate istead of forge would give is a slightly fater warpgate which is oly needed if you are going for a timing or if they are pressuring you, in a macro game its not very important.
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Very abusable the terran can easily go for a 3rd cc off 1 rax cc and 3 rax double ebay before the techlab and just kinda pressure when protoss tries to get their own third.
Reaper expand and just pretty much any gas opening completely kills this, but in the games that ive seen theyve all done it on antiga which is cross only in tournaments so they can pylon scout and see if gas and react accordingly
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what about a single proxy rax lifted inbase ?
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United Kingdom20285 Posts
Another advantage with this build is that the early Forge means you can start getting upgrades a lot quicker
People underestimate this greatly - i experimented myself at high dia (messing around, played ~30 games in a row to work on mechanics) and finishing +2 armor at like 8:30 is crazy good, essentially a build order win vs any kind of expand into mass rax.
Zealots have 1 base armor, under guardian shield they have 3 armor, with +2 armor they have 5, so they take 1 damage instead of 6 from marines. You can kill stupid amounts of marines.
Just did a quick test, unmicro'd amove has 10 zealots and 2 sentries beat 50 marines, with micro im sure terran could do a lot more with a lot less marines, but he simply wont do shit without attack upgrades etc, 1rax expand into 4-5rax pure marine is held effortlessly with that kind of composition
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On April 20 2012 19:19 BronzeKnee wrote:
The ignorance surrounding this FFE vs Terran is pretty shocking. The only time you use this build is when you scout gasless expand by Terran.
Makes sense in theory. But on which maps/positions can you go nexus 15 *after* you've scouted no gas from Terran ?
In fact, ideally you should have scouted Terran before a potential 13 gate, else you're already risking ruinning your build. Let's say you arrive in Terran's base at 15 and you scout gas and no gate yet, what do you do ? Go for a 15 gate instead ? Or risk going for a 15 nexus versus a gas build ?
There aren't too many maps that I can think of, where you can scout a Terran before your 13 gate 
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On April 21 2012 00:25 Nyast wrote:Show nested quote +On April 20 2012 19:19 BronzeKnee wrote:
The ignorance surrounding this FFE vs Terran is pretty shocking. The only time you use this build is when you scout gasless expand by Terran. Makes sense in theory. But on which maps/positions can you go nexus 15 *after* you've scouted no gas from Terran ? In fact, ideally you should have scouted Terran before a potential 13 gate, else you're already risking ruinning your build. Let's say you arrive in Terran's base at 15 and you scout gas and no gate yet, what do you do ? Go for a 15 gate instead ? Or risk going for a 15 nexus versus a gas build ? There aren't too many maps that I can think of, where you can scout a Terran before your 13 gate
You shouldn't scout that late then. Make a decision. Send scout after pylon and decide on scouting. If you can't determine opponent build by then, put the gate down or just go blind and adjust as necessary.
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On April 21 2012 00:25 Nyast wrote:Show nested quote +On April 20 2012 19:19 BronzeKnee wrote:
The ignorance surrounding this FFE vs Terran is pretty shocking. The only time you use this build is when you scout gasless expand by Terran. Makes sense in theory. But on which maps/positions can you go nexus 15 *after* you've scouted no gas from Terran ? In fact, ideally you should have scouted Terran before a potential 13 gate, else you're already risking ruinning your build. Let's say you arrive in Terran's base at 15 and you scout gas and no gate yet, what do you do ? Go for a 15 gate instead ? Or risk going for a 15 nexus versus a gas build ? There aren't too many maps that I can think of, where you can scout a Terran before your 13 gate
HerO threw down a 15 or so gate in his GSL match against MVP in response to a gas opening. He definitely intended to Nexus first/FFE, but had to change that upon scouting the gas. The 15 gate won't delay you by that much vs a gas opening, and vs a gasless opening there really isnt much the terran can do to PUNISH this FFE other than outgreeding you.
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Some people like to rush that armor upgrades so like doing this but I still don't really get it.
Against gas builds this is really risky as the cannon is useless against various builds (tank pressure, fast reaper, fast drops) so it's basically a meta build against gasless play which is the norm in high level play. Even then I don't really get it as I think you can just get away with nexus first into gate or just 20 nex then. The cannon doesn't do that much except make you safer against pressure which an extra gateway does just as well.
As for rushing armor, i still don't truly get it. It's not like they start armor as soon as the forge finishes so delaying that forge after the first two gates doesn't really seem to matter you can still get that armor really quick. At best it's a highly metagamed build for the pro scene that's probably useless in ladder is my suspicion unless I'm missing some important point about it.
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Is it important to wall off vs terran?
Would it be better served to go for a fast forge to allow you to have detection vs DT's while going for non-robo tech after a fast nexus?
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cannon expands are common for several weeks on the eu ladder now. most of the time after gateway though - nothing new.
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On April 20 2012 19:57 Veetz wrote:
pretty sure this build will fall out of style.. i feel like this build is TOO SAFE like protoss can already get away with nexus first.. why build cannons anyways.. besides, with chrono boost you already get ahead in upgrades usually. you really dont need a forge that early.. everytime i see this build, i just build a 3rd cc and 2 gas and 2 ebays on 1 rax its sooo insanely greedy but toss can't do nothing bout it.
not to mention you won't be using chrono boost on forge that early since you wana use it on probes so i dunno if terran does anything other than fast 3rd and 2 ebays then i guess it could be good.
It has been shown time and time again that 15 Nexus -> Gate is an instant loss to various cheese. This Gate -> Forge build is essentially an evolution of the 15 Nexus opening.
And another thing that people aren't really mentioning is that this is really only viable on maps with a natural ramp/choke which you can defend with stationary cannon(s). It won't work on maps with wide open naturals like metal.
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On April 21 2012 02:42 Skyro wrote:Show nested quote +On April 20 2012 19:57 Veetz wrote:
pretty sure this build will fall out of style.. i feel like this build is TOO SAFE like protoss can already get away with nexus first.. why build cannons anyways.. besides, with chrono boost you already get ahead in upgrades usually. you really dont need a forge that early.. everytime i see this build, i just build a 3rd cc and 2 gas and 2 ebays on 1 rax its sooo insanely greedy but toss can't do nothing bout it.
not to mention you won't be using chrono boost on forge that early since you wana use it on probes so i dunno if terran does anything other than fast 3rd and 2 ebays then i guess it could be good. It has been shown time and time again that 15 Nexus -> Gate is an instant loss to various cheese. This Gate -> Forge build is essentially an evolution of the 15 Nexus opening. And another thing that people aren't really mentioning is that this is really only viable on maps with a natural ramp/choke which you can defend with stationary cannon(s). It won't work on maps with wide open naturals like metal.
what ur saying? as if people proxied reapers in huge 4 player maps a lot...
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mid masters protoss on NA. I use this opening on all maps without a wide nat (eg. metalopolis). I don't scout until my 16 probe which puts down the nexus, so at my level it's quite viable against gas or gasless terran opening. What a lot of people are missing here is that one of the biggest benefits of this vs nexus > gateway is that you have to chrono units to be safe vs any early rax pressure, but with a single cannon (and solid watch tower control with your first zealot stalker) you can spend ALL your chrono on probes which makes a huge difference.
Transition to two base all-in from this build is very strong because you can saturate your Nat so quickly, and since a lot of terrans will take a fast third, something like a colossus timing if very powerful.
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On April 21 2012 02:20 unix04 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 21 2012 00:25 Nyast wrote:On April 20 2012 19:19 BronzeKnee wrote:
The ignorance surrounding this FFE vs Terran is pretty shocking. The only time you use this build is when you scout gasless expand by Terran. Makes sense in theory. But on which maps/positions can you go nexus 15 *after* you've scouted no gas from Terran ? In fact, ideally you should have scouted Terran before a potential 13 gate, else you're already risking ruinning your build. Let's say you arrive in Terran's base at 15 and you scout gas and no gate yet, what do you do ? Go for a 15 gate instead ? Or risk going for a 15 nexus versus a gas build ? There aren't too many maps that I can think of, where you can scout a Terran before your 13 gate You shouldn't scout that late then. Make a decision. Send scout after pylon and decide on scouting. If you can't determine opponent build by then, put the gate down or just go blind and adjust as necessary.
Who said anything about scouting late ? Of course I was speaking of sending your scout at 9. But even with a scout at 9, you're only going to be able to scout the closest position on most maps, and that's it. If your opponent isn't there, going for a blind 15 nexus is risky.
So the condition for using that build 'safely" is to scout at 9, find that your opponent is indeed at the closest position, and that he's going for no gas expand. Anything else and you're taking a risk.
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here's a replay where protoss defends vs. a fairly fast medivac drop
terran opens 2 rax and upon scouting the FE he opts for fast medivac drops.
(5:00 factory)
(6:00 starport)
Warpgates finish well in time to get stalkers to defend the drops while cannons defend your natural from run by's
http://drop.sc/164143
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On April 21 2012 03:36 xTrim wrote:Show nested quote +On April 21 2012 02:42 Skyro wrote:On April 20 2012 19:57 Veetz wrote:
pretty sure this build will fall out of style.. i feel like this build is TOO SAFE like protoss can already get away with nexus first.. why build cannons anyways.. besides, with chrono boost you already get ahead in upgrades usually. you really dont need a forge that early.. everytime i see this build, i just build a 3rd cc and 2 gas and 2 ebays on 1 rax its sooo insanely greedy but toss can't do nothing bout it.
not to mention you won't be using chrono boost on forge that early since you wana use it on probes so i dunno if terran does anything other than fast 3rd and 2 ebays then i guess it could be good. It has been shown time and time again that 15 Nexus -> Gate is an instant loss to various cheese. This Gate -> Forge build is essentially an evolution of the 15 Nexus opening. And another thing that people aren't really mentioning is that this is really only viable on maps with a natural ramp/choke which you can defend with stationary cannon(s). It won't work on maps with wide open naturals like metal. what ur saying? as if people proxied reapers in huge 4 player maps a lot...
Actually reapers is one of the things that a 15 Nexus is able to handle ok with proper micro. The real threat is proxy/hidden rax with bunkers. You may not face it on ladder a lot but the pros do, and that's pretty much how this nexus -> forge build came about. It is simply an evolution of the 15 nexus opening.
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United Kingdom20285 Posts
On April 21 2012 04:47 TheRealDudeMan wrote:http://replayfu.com/r/wnLHGdThis is just plat play but figured I'd submit it to you guys. The FFE gets owned by me >.>
Platinum play, ie worthless for discussion. Ive gone 4-0 at the top of diamond with gateway gas forge nexus without even having a clue what i was doing because people are really that bad, and id imagine platinum players are a lot worse than random top 8 diamond terrans (who die horribly to this kind of opening)
I didnt even watch the games in question and had little info, super early forge and 1-2 cannons for defense with delayed cyber core when scouted gasless terran was pretty much all i was working with
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Platinum play, ie worthless for discussion. Ive gone 4-0 at the top of diamond with gateway gas forge nexus without even having a clue what i was doing because people are really that bad, and id imagine platinum players are a lot worse than random top 8 diamond terrans (who die horribly to this kind of opening)
Well it proves that you need to be a certain level to even consider attempting the FFE against Terran. The guy in my replay didn't scout for gas and I just pressured with marauders while taking my own expand.
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United Kingdom20285 Posts
On April 21 2012 05:17 TheRealDudeMan wrote:Show nested quote +Platinum play, ie worthless for discussion. Ive gone 4-0 at the top of diamond with gateway gas forge nexus without even having a clue what i was doing because people are really that bad, and id imagine platinum players are a lot worse than random top 8 diamond terrans (who die horribly to this kind of opening) Well it proves that you need to be a certain level to even consider attempting the FFE against Terran. The guy in my replay didn't scout for gas and I just pressured with marauders while taking my own expand.
If he didnt scout for gas in PvT he was doing something very wrong.
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I just dont see this working because of how many ways Terran can get in your base and still not be too far behind
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I've been using this build on ladder(GM last season) recently and it works extremely well. I think there are three main reasons for why this build is much stronger then 1 gate expo.
1. Stronger economy- a 15-18nexus into forge gives you a MUCH stronger economy than any possible 1gate expand. A 1gate expand also forces 2 chronoed zealots for safety, which are pretty useless early on. The cannon allows you to skip those 2 zealots(and chronos) and go straight to stalker.
2. Faster upgrades- I can generally start my upgrades around 5:10 to 5:30 in game minutes, which is much faster then a standard gate expo into 3gates into 2forge upgrades.
3. Stops/ sets up well against almost every terran cheese. - With proper probe scouting, this build (on larger maps) is basically impervious to most terran cheeses, forcing a macro game. This point is especially important because of the huge array of early timings terran has, and the limited information protoss gets early game.
Keep in mind many protoss throw down nexus before cybernetics core whenever they scout terran expo build, and this forge build only slows down cybernetics core/warpgates by 300minerals, which is not a big window of time at all.
A cannon + probe pull is strong enough to stop any early marine scv rush
gateway units/warpgates will be out in time to stop any multiple rax stim marine marauder timing.
Without stim, cannons actually fare well against marauders, so stimless 2 rax attacks are very unlikely to work. The strength in stimless 2rax lies with concussive shells, which (obviously) don't work against cannons.
Will have stalkers + multiple finished warpgates by the time anything involving medivac/elevator comes out.
vs 1-1-1 the best(or at least most standard) counter was 1 gate expo to get enough economy to power 5gates and robo, but this build gives you even more economy so it is even better vs 1-1-1 than 1gate expo.
The two greatest weaknesses of this build would be reaper rush and a marine tank timing push(which hits much earlier then standard 1-1-1 ), but as a recent GSL game showed, it fairs well even against the latter.
For people who don't see this working, there's a reason GSL code S protosses have suddenly all been switching to this build, it simply outclasses 1 gate expo in almost every way.
Basic build order is pylon, nexus, forge, pylon, cannon, gate, gas x2, core when gate is finished, stalker when core is finished.
Artosis says there are three variations, but what he really means is that he has seen 3 variations in replays. Similar to pvz, after the basic build order, you can do whatever you feel like. twilight/robo/gate/3rd nexus/2nd forge are all viable options.
The 3rd nexus option is one people don't seem to understand much. Basically many terran counter FFE with 3orbital, so the rush 3rd nexus is a "mindgame' counter vs that build. If a terran scouts your third nexus building and does a dedicated 2base push, it would be very hard to hold off.
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Did people forget about MKP's 3 reactor factory response to this build? It's pretty hilarious how hopeless protoss is against that with this opening.
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I believe this build will be the predominant opening for PvT within a few months. Code S protosses wouldn't be doing it in GSL if they hadn't already considered the benefits and drawbacks. Fan explained very well why this build is just better than 1 gate expo, and at this point I doubt it is going away any time soon.
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I've been doing FFE vs Terran in Diamond league for quite a while, without having seen anyone else do it. I just hate making gateway units vs Terran so I found a way to avoid doing so as much as possible.
If the Terran goes Reaper first and has good micro, you're dead. Fortunately, you can scout whether this is actually happening - if the Terran still hasn't made his tech lab by the time he kills your scouting probe, the Reaper will not arrive in time to slaughter you.
Here's my working build order when I scout no gas. I provide no assurance that this is a good build order.
9 pylon, scout
16 nexus
17 pylon
18 forge
20 assimilator + gateway
100% forge: 1 cannon
Follow up with, when available:
assimilator, cannon, assimilator, cycore, assimilator, cannon
Chrono boost probes twice before placing the Nexus, resume chronoboosting once pylon #2 completes, and transfer probes as the Nexus finishes; your probes double as defensive units if the opponent tries to run past the cannons. At each stage of the opening, if they go all-in you can hold having lost only half your probes.
Once they scout you, keep an eye on the SCV's behavior. A proxy rax can be a pain.
I transition into multiple Robos and a Stargate because, again, I hate Gateway units. But the basic framework should work for more basic play.
As I see it, the main advantage you gain by doing a forge expand is getting early gas that you don't have to immediately spend on stalkers just to stay alive.
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Fan, that was a really good description of the things that terrans commonly do now, but I was wondering in these games have the terran's you've played or seen matches of made significant adjustments to their build order? I would just think that they'd be able to simulate stephano style zvp by taking advantage of the timing that protoss won't really be able to do much until minute 7:30 or so at the earliest. In that way wouldn't it be extremely difficult for protoss to deal with 1 rax fe into third orbital and double engineering bay, especially if the terran realizes he does not need to build bunkers for defense for protoss timing attacks, that saved money could potentially lead to even a 4th orbital, example, cut 2 bunkers and one rax?
Another issue is how would this build deal with a 3 orbital mech play, like a super economic version of the 1/1/1 off 3 base, as once again there shouldn't be worry from the terran about a protoss timing attack? Also with the delayed robo tech how do you distinguish between 3 orbital and two base play since the response would be very different between the two, i.e. fast third or mass units? I do agree with all your points though, nexus first econ is definitely way way way stronger than 1 gate fe econ, just have a these few questions about it.
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On April 21 2012 09:13 Fan wrote:
I've been using this build on ladder(GM last season) recently and it works extremely well. I think there are three main reasons for why this build is much stronger then 1 gate expo.
1. Stronger economy- a 15-18nexus into forge gives you a MUCH stronger economy than any possible 1gate expand. A 1gate expand also forces 2 chronoed zealots for safety, which are pretty useless early on. The cannon allows you to skip those 2 zealots(and chronos) and go straight to stalker.
2. Faster upgrades- I can generally start my upgrades around 5:10 to 5:30 in game minutes, which is much faster then a standard gate expo into 3gates into 2forge upgrades.
3. Stops/ sets up well against almost every terran cheese. - With proper probe scouting, this build (on larger maps) is basically impervious to most terran cheeses, forcing a macro game. This point is especially important because of the huge array of early timings terran has, and the limited information protoss gets early game.
Keep in mind many protoss throw down nexus before cybernetics core whenever they scout terran expo build, and this forge build only slows down cybernetics core/warpgates by 300minerals, which is not a big window of time at all.
A cannon + probe pull is strong enough to stop any early marine scv rush
gateway units/warpgates will be out in time to stop any multiple rax stim marine marauder timing.
Without stim, cannons actually fare well against marauders, so stimless 2 rax attacks are very unlikely to work. The strength in stimless 2rax lies with concussive shells, which (obviously) don't work against cannons.
Will have stalkers + multiple finished warpgates by the time anything involving medivac/elevator comes out.
vs 1-1-1 the best(or at least most standard) counter was 1 gate expo to get enough economy to power 5gates and robo, but this build gives you even more economy so it is even better vs 1-1-1 than 1gate expo.
The two greatest weaknesses of this build would be reaper rush and a marine tank timing push(which hits much earlier then standard 1-1-1 ), but as a recent GSL game showed, it fairs well even against the latter.
For people who don't see this working, there's a reason GSL code S protosses have suddenly all been switching to this build, it simply outclasses 1 gate expo in almost every way.
Basic build order is pylon, nexus, forge, pylon, cannon, gate, gas x2, core when gate is finished, stalker when core is finished.
Artosis says there are three variations, but what he really means is that he has seen 3 variations in replays. Similar to pvz, after the basic build order, you can do whatever you feel like. twilight/robo/gate/3rd nexus/2nd forge are all viable options.
The 3rd nexus option is one people don't seem to understand much. Basically many terran counter FFE with 3orbital, so the rush 3rd nexus is a "mindgame' counter vs that build. If a terran scouts your third nexus building and does a dedicated 2base push, it would be very hard to hold off.
most of this post is just not true. This build doesn't give you a much stronger economy then a quick 1 gate expo where you expo before any unit. This build cuts probes slightly for the forge timing and has a cannon which for economical purposes is pretty useless. Also it's economy is slightly better but your also telegraphing to terran he is free to do something very greedy since you have a cannon AND super late warpgate tech.
Also against marine tank this build is not good at all as that will hit before you have warpgate tech complete. The GSL game was MVP going marine tank after doing a gasless expo, in that case he will hit too late ofcourse. If your opponent 1-1-1 or something this build has more trouble to hold then a greedy 1 gate FE really.
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On April 20 2012 18:02 Azzur wrote:
In my opinion, I think it's a very weak opening since the protoss is basically telegraphing to the terran that there will be no early aggression.
Well MVP put on early aggression with a marine/seige tank SCV all-in and this still held.
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@Recurve I have held terrans do every kind of allin after scouting this build, from 1 base full scv pull to gasless expo into 6 rax and everywhere in between. As of now, I still believe with proper probe/stalker scouting, they aren't much of an issue.
As for the fast triple orbital, there are several things you can do. I personally like getting robo as soon as core finishes, and tack on 3 gates afterwards. This way, I have faster scouting and can scout 3rd orbital and respond in time.
I have seen other people( like oz) do things like blindly rush a 3rd nexus,and just mass gateways. If terran did 3oc, then he is in a great position, if terran does a timing while nexus is building he can simply cancel, and if nexus is finished, chances are his warpgates are also finished and he will have enough units to have a good chance at defending.
There is no way to magically tell if terran is 2basing or 3ocing early on, but both options above should work fine. Also, I have never seen 3oc mech play, so I can't really comment on that.
Just keep in mind with you starting upgrades so early, even if a terran goes 3oc into 2ebay, you should still be ahead on upgrades and ok in economy, and PvT late game is (imo) much more manageable then PvT early-mid.
@Markwerf
Nexus first always gives a stronger economy then gate into nexus. The extra 150 minerals there does make a difference, similar to how in pvz forge nexus is much weaker economically then nexus forge.
Yes, a unit-less, gas-less 1 gate expo would be comparable in economy to this build, but I still believe this build gives a better economy because of the faster nexus + 2-3 saved chronoboosts that are spent on zealot zealot can now be spent on probe production instead.
and why is most of the post not true if you just address the first few lines(which are true...)
Obviously this build also has its weaknesses, and I did list that a marine tank timing is (probably) one of them. Nevertheless, with proper probe scouting, protoss should be able to identify the possiblity of a 1 base marine tank/ 1-1-1 opening, and can redistribute chronos from nexus to warpgate research accordingly, so it's not like marine tank will auto win vs this build.
Also 1-1-1 opening for terran is depot rax gas orbital depot, and no decent protoss who scouts that will ever go gasless unitless 1 gate expo, so your point about comparing economy vs 1-1-1 is irrelevant. The fastest 1gate expo a toss will do in that situation is after cybercore. That is why I say nexus forge is better then 1gate expo vs 1-1-1, the economy differential in that situation is huge.
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Blazinghand
United States25551 Posts
As a Mid Master Terran, I would like to speak out in support of Fan. 15 Nexus -> Gateway is a fairly common opener that I see, and 15 Nexus -> Forge is really just a slightly greedier version with a quicker +1 (and +2), and more probes since the cannon gives you a little bit of leaning room.
The biggest thing most other people are missing out here is that this build OPENS as a 15 Nexus! Typically you're 9-scouting, and you'll see if the terran has gas or not. If you scout gas, you play standard 15 Nexus -> Gateway build and you can hold any 1-1-1, 2-rax concussive, etc. If you scout no gas, you drop the forge and get quick upgrades that make zealots mad good. If you are walled out or otherwise fooled or unable to scout, you're admittedly in a tougher position.
I've been spamming games against my P practice partners to work out my 3OC response, and it doesn't quite catapult you into the lead you'd expect it to. Protoss hits 2 base saturation quickly and has a strong upgrade advantage, and really you're just using the 3rd OC to saturate (and take your gasses) more quickly, and for the +50% muling power for quite some time before moving out.
A game against this sort of build will play out like a game against a 15 Nexus player, but you can feel a bit safer and be a BIT greedier-- but he WILL have strong upgrades and the sort of mass gateway play that is common coming out of this build is proportionately stronger.
Don't discount this build so easily. I've seen it on the ladder, I've seen it up close, and hell, I've seen it in the GSL.
15 Nexus lives on, as it always does.
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Fan you think you could provide a few replays of you doing it? I would greatly appreciate it if you could
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As a diamond level player I can vouch for FFE holding all the Terran all-ins at that level. I get a Phoenix as my AA choice in time to only lose a few probes to a Banshee (and then my economy and tech are way ahead so I beat 1-1-1 trivially), marine/tank all-in is no trouble (just make sure the photon cannons aren't clumped together so the cannons take as long to eliminate as possible), nuke rush is just a matter of sniping the ghosts (I personally have Phoenixes and just lift the ghost in question), 2rax/3rax just dies at the photon cannons so long as you pull probes alongside your units, and you have your static defenses up way sooner than Zerg does for a bunker rush.
Quite frankly, the bigger problem is the usual problem Protoss has against Zerg - if Terran goes triple orbital, taking your own third becomes quite difficult while you have committed yourself to nonaggression for a while. I'm always happy to see aggression of any form coming my way when I FFE, it's far easier to win that way.
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On April 21 2012 09:13 Fan wrote:
A cannon + probe pull is strong enough to stop any early marine scv rush
gateway units/warpgates will be out in time to stop any multiple rax stim marine marauder timing.
Without stim, cannons actually fare well against marauders, so stimless 2 rax attacks are very unlikely to work. The strength in stimless 2rax lies with concussive shells, which (obviously) don't work against cannons.
I just don't get the timings of this build.
I checked AGIANTSMURF's replay, and his cybercore *finishes* at 5'20. At this time, there can already be a reaper in your base. How the hell do you avoid tremendous eco damage without even a first unit started ?
But okay, let's ignore that for a second. At this timing ( 5'20 ) he barely has enough gas to start his warp research and a stalker. So he's short 100 gas to start researching his first upgrade. I'd really like to see your build, cause to get enough gas for warp + stalker + upgrade at this moment, you must have taken your second gas very early ( which AGIANTSMURF didn't )..
What I don't really understand is how can you survive proxy builds / all-ins where the guy simply by-passes the cannon(s) and goes directly in the back of your base ? You have no units besides a single stalker, if I'm not mistaken, when this happens.. or do you just go crazy with cannons when you scout the all-in ?
How do the timings fare with a helion drop ? This happens pretty quickly too if I remember well. Is warp completed ? At which time does it normally complete ? How many chronos do you spend on it ?
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@Nyast: if your opponent is rushing a tech lab, you just don't do FFE. Getting a Reaper at 5:20 requires doing things that Protoss can scout, and rushing a tech lab means Protoss doesn't even need a cannon up so fast (since you skipped the first couple marines).
If proxies are done reactively in response to seeing your nexus, you should be able to follow the scouting SCV to its position and see it and make the appropriate cannon count. An unscouted proxy 2 rax will generally stomp this but the same can be said of CC first and (to a slightly lesser degree) Hatch first.
Bunker rush is no issue; you just hold it off like you're a Zerg, only as Protoss you get good static defenses in a far more reasonable amount of time.
If you fail to get a decent wall Hellion runbys are problematic. (i.e. don't do this on Metalopolis, in case that wasn't obvious for other reasons). Drop play, however, is so late that I have Immortals out by the time they arrive.
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On April 22 2012 00:59 Crow! wrote:
@Nyast: if your opponent is rushing a tech lab, you just don't do FFE. Getting a Reaper at 5:20 requires doing things that Protoss can scout, and rushing a tech lab means Protoss doesn't even need a cannon up so fast (since you skipped the first couple marines).
If proxies are done reactively in response to seeing your nexus, you should be able to follow the scouting SCV to its position and see it and make the appropriate cannon count.
So you're scouting at 9 out of a 15 nexus ?
And then you need a second scout just to follow the ennemy scv, just "in case of". That's 2 probes that don't mine when you're 15 nexus-ing..
Hmm...
On April 22 2012 00:59 Crow! wrote:If you fail to get a decent wall Hellion runbys are problematic. (i.e. don't do this on Metalopolis, in case that wasn't obvious for other reasons). Drop play, however, is so late that I have Immortals out by the time they arrive.
I don't know which build you're doing that gets your immortals by the time a helion drop happens. In my games, this happens between 6'30 and 6'45.
Doing Fan's build ( quoted: pylon, nexus, forge, pylon, cannon, gate, gas x2, core when gate is finished, stalker when core is finished ), I get a single stalker done at 6'30 and warp is barely half way. How do you hold 4 helions harassing your main with a single stalker and no warp ?
I don't want to sound too negative, but really, until I can see the replay of somebody who does a good execution of that build, it's hard for me to believe it's not an auto-loss versus fast reapers, fast helions drop, or tons of other possible terran answers..
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If your cyber core finishes at 5:20, the stalker will not be out before a reaper is in the main if the Terran got gas. He can make one marine, chase the probe out, and build a tech lab. At that rate, a reaper will be in a mineral line (even cross map) in time to do a bunch of damage before the stalker shows up. So that is obviously not economical for the Protoss, and it's about as simple a response as possible for the Terran. So is this opening meant just for fighting gasless terrans? Because I'm reading a lot about fighting 1-1-1s with this and I don't understand how getting a forge is intelligent when you see 14 gas.
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On April 22 2012 01:47 ineversmile wrote:
If your cyber core finishes at 5:20, the stalker will not be out before a reaper is in the main if the Terran got gas. He can make one marine, chase the probe out, and build a tech lab. At that rate, a reaper will be in a mineral line (even cross map) in time to do a bunch of damage before the stalker shows up. So that is obviously not economical for the Protoss, and it's about as simple a response as possible for the Terran. So is this opening meant just for fighting gasless terrans? Because I'm reading a lot about fighting 1-1-1s with this and I don't understand how getting a forge is intelligent when you see 14 gas.
yeah its for gasless, i watched a korean stream yesterday (i think it was crank) with this and a terran just got like 7 minute siege mode and wrecked it. If you open 17 nexus 17 gate and get core right away it still lets reaper be in your base for like 20 sec if they rushed tech lab so with forge first instead of gate if they micro and keep building reapers while expoing u auto lose. Your tech is too late if they gas but if they gasless you can do it because if the terran tries to trick you, show gasless, and double gasses after your worker dies or leaves his push will be later than a normal push so you should be fine.
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Faced this 4 times in a row on KR today high diamond - mid masters protoss was the range of ppl. They make 1 cannon, if they see pressure, 2 more, and go 6 gate. They are fine to get a robo out before cloak does too much damage, and a cannon can provide vision of banshee of mineral line.
TBH I'm fucking retarded and cannot find a way to beat this on certain maps with chokes where stalker + cannon + sentry can hold off infantry indefinitely.
Only time I was able to beat it was when I went a complete all in marine tank banshee after a gasless FE and caught him unawares with a giant marine ball.
The 4-6 gate follow up with 2 nexus, and early upgrade is downright fucking disgusting.
And reapers aren't all that game ending against this. Half decent probe micro can keep a swarm of probes on you as they pull the weak ones away decently enough to staff off some damage. I know because I went 2 reaper off reaper FE, and got maybe only 5-6 probes, max. But what's 5-6 probes to double chrono protoss. One guy did a follow up 6 gate and had over 100 supply, and 40+ probes, even with me and even surpassed me.
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What if terran opens with reapper ?
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On April 24 2012 05:48 Yuffie wrote:
What if terran opens with reapper ?
You dont go forge if you scout gas
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On April 20 2012 14:50 CaptainHaz wrote:
I feel like this leaves you more vulnerable to elevator timings. Since you're delaying your gateway, helions and other things will create more trouble for you if the terran just decides to go straight for factory/starport. I think that you can be safe against everything using just nex->gateway, save something like a helion drop.
I did ~10 games with it, and every single game the terran went for either split drops or elevator timing. It is however very possible to defend vs these, and it's basically gg as soon as you stop it. Personally I found more sucess with going 1 cannon, 3 gates for stalkers and then +1 attack instead of armor. Much more useful against the drop play, and no one even attempted a front door bust, and if they do you can easily drop another 2 cannons before they hit and the terran will be really far behind.
I think the best T response is to just double expand when they see FFE, as you can't really pressure behind your forge build.
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Question. Whats wrong with nexus gateway forge and get the early upgrade anyway? Gasless isn't going to be attacking you. I just don't see the advantage of nexus forge gateway cannon, when the build is designed to fight a fast expanding Terran. You could always build a cannon for the 4+ rax marine timing.
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On April 24 2012 06:04 GiftPflanZe wrote:You dont go forge if you scout gas
Even if you do, it's not a 100% loss. A few lost probes doesn't mean you won't catch back up, and if they get greedy you can just roll over with heavy gate pressure.
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On April 22 2012 01:41 Nyast wrote:Show nested quote +On April 22 2012 00:59 Crow! wrote:
@Nyast: if your opponent is rushing a tech lab, you just don't do FFE. Getting a Reaper at 5:20 requires doing things that Protoss can scout, and rushing a tech lab means Protoss doesn't even need a cannon up so fast (since you skipped the first couple marines).
If proxies are done reactively in response to seeing your nexus, you should be able to follow the scouting SCV to its position and see it and make the appropriate cannon count. So you're scouting at 9 out of a 15 nexus ? And then you need a second scout just to follow the ennemy scv, just "in case of". That's 2 probes that don't mine when you're 15 nexus-ing.. Hmm...
It is totally fine, as a reward you get 2x chrono probes, it doesn't put you behind too much.
I trie this build on EU gold league today (well not this build, but the standard "OK i heard forge was good for nexus first, I'll try and make it work on ladder without practicing it!" variance) and to my endless astonishment it crushed a blind 3rax all scv pull all-in! Check my replay out if you want to see scrubby gold leaguers battling each other!
... link ...
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I do the nexus forge fast expand every PvT I play so far, and win virtually every PvT...it's a good build. And for people saying Terran can just drop you or kill your or something...not really. You can have so many units in the mid-game that you will never die to any 2 base from Terran...
And if Terran goes for 3 bases...or an in-base orbital...well, this is what every Protoss player WANTS. The game to drag on long because the longer the game goes, the better it is for the Protoss player.
It's a strong, strong build. And reaper does nothing to it. You build the cannon at the front, take 5 probes to your cliff wherever the reaper will hop up...now you are so far ahead it's not even funny, you'll be usually ~20 probes ahead from chronoboost if Terran went reaper first.
So as said...you get every advantage. You get fast upgrades, you get a huge mid-game army that you can all-in with very easily, you entice Terran to play lategame against you, and you will have so much that you can hold off any all-ins EASY. You can even metagame this a lot of times and take your third nexus early with +2 armor chargelots, mass guardian shield/FFs, into templar + cannon turtle. Then you just play standard PvT like mech Terran and never attack until you're 3/0/3, 200/200 with collosus + templar in warp prisms + 5k/5k bank.
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The whole point of the 9 scout is so you can go gateway first or Nexus --> gateway in response to certain gas timings; then it plays out like a normal build.
Its greedy, and if you do it OZ style, its probably the greediest build in PvT, since he gets his 3rd Nexus at 7 minutes and has 1-1 at the time old double forge builds would be starting their upgrades.
And for the people saying this can hold off gas builds from Terran, I highly highly doubt it. There's a reason that so far its only been done on two player maps and has been accompanied by a 9 scout nearly every game its been used, the build is flat out abandoned vs. gas builds.
You can't just blindly do this build vs. a gassing Terran, off the top of my head, even as a Protoss player i can think of a half dozen things that would straight kill the build if the Terran got gas.
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Fan, mind sharing replays? =)
Following this discussion closely. Seems like people either love or hate this opening.
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On April 24 2012 08:01 avilo wrote:
I do the nexus forge fast expand every PvT I play so far, and win virtually every PvT...it's a good build. And for people saying Terran can just drop you or kill your or something...not really. You can have so many units in the mid-game that you will never die to any 2 base from Terran...
And if Terran goes for 3 bases...or an in-base orbital...well, this is what every Protoss player WANTS. The game to drag on long because the longer the game goes, the better it is for the Protoss player.
It's a strong, strong build. And reaper does nothing to it. You build the cannon at the front, take 5 probes to your cliff wherever the reaper will hop up...now you are so far ahead it's not even funny, you'll be usually ~20 probes ahead from chronoboost if Terran went reaper first.
So as said...you get every advantage. You get fast upgrades, you get a huge mid-game army that you can all-in with very easily, you entice Terran to play lategame against you, and you will have so much that you can hold off any all-ins EASY. You can even metagame this a lot of times and take your third nexus early with +2 armor chargelots, mass guardian shield/FFs, into templar + cannon turtle. Then you just play standard PvT like mech Terran and never attack until you're 3/0/3, 200/200 with collosus + templar in warp prisms + 5k/5k bank.
Sorry if I'm mistaken, but aren't you a terran player? You said yourself on your stream page (http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=181166) that you play terran, and I've read a ton of posts from you talking about nothing but TvP. So did you change races or something? The reason I'm bringing this up is that this is a strategy forum where players discuss things to improve their gameplay, but if people start making claims (not necessarily saying that you are) that are just made up, it can really hurt the integrity of these threads imo.
Since I know you are a high level player (and thus will play skilled opponents), it would be great to see you upload some of these replays of you winning virtually every PvT using nexus FFE, would definitely prove the viability of this build on ladder.
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United States8476 Posts
On April 24 2012 09:19 Zealot Lord wrote:Show nested quote +On April 24 2012 08:01 avilo wrote:
I do the nexus forge fast expand every PvT I play so far, and win virtually every PvT...it's a good build. And for people saying Terran can just drop you or kill your or something...not really. You can have so many units in the mid-game that you will never die to any 2 base from Terran...
And if Terran goes for 3 bases...or an in-base orbital...well, this is what every Protoss player WANTS. The game to drag on long because the longer the game goes, the better it is for the Protoss player.
It's a strong, strong build. And reaper does nothing to it. You build the cannon at the front, take 5 probes to your cliff wherever the reaper will hop up...now you are so far ahead it's not even funny, you'll be usually ~20 probes ahead from chronoboost if Terran went reaper first.
So as said...you get every advantage. You get fast upgrades, you get a huge mid-game army that you can all-in with very easily, you entice Terran to play lategame against you, and you will have so much that you can hold off any all-ins EASY. You can even metagame this a lot of times and take your third nexus early with +2 armor chargelots, mass guardian shield/FFs, into templar + cannon turtle. Then you just play standard PvT like mech Terran and never attack until you're 3/0/3, 200/200 with collosus + templar in warp prisms + 5k/5k bank. Sorry if I'm mistaken, but aren't you a terran player? You said yourself on your stream page (http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=181166) that you play terran, and I've read a ton of posts from you talking about nothing but TvP. So did you change races or something? The reason I'm bringing this up is that this is a strategy forum where players discuss things to improve their gameplay, but if people start making claims (not necessarily saying that you are) that are just made up, it can really hurt the integrity of these threads imo. Since I know you are a high level player (and thus will play skilled opponents), it would be great to see you upload some of these replays of you winning virtually every PvT using nexus FFE, would definitely prove the viability of this build on ladder.
Avilo's claims, although regularly whiny, are more informed than 99% of people who post on these forums, even when he talks about his offrace.
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On April 24 2012 09:25 NrGmonk wrote:Show nested quote +On April 24 2012 09:19 Zealot Lord wrote:On April 24 2012 08:01 avilo wrote:
I do the nexus forge fast expand every PvT I play so far, and win virtually every PvT...it's a good build. And for people saying Terran can just drop you or kill your or something...not really. You can have so many units in the mid-game that you will never die to any 2 base from Terran...
And if Terran goes for 3 bases...or an in-base orbital...well, this is what every Protoss player WANTS. The game to drag on long because the longer the game goes, the better it is for the Protoss player.
It's a strong, strong build. And reaper does nothing to it. You build the cannon at the front, take 5 probes to your cliff wherever the reaper will hop up...now you are so far ahead it's not even funny, you'll be usually ~20 probes ahead from chronoboost if Terran went reaper first.
So as said...you get every advantage. You get fast upgrades, you get a huge mid-game army that you can all-in with very easily, you entice Terran to play lategame against you, and you will have so much that you can hold off any all-ins EASY. You can even metagame this a lot of times and take your third nexus early with +2 armor chargelots, mass guardian shield/FFs, into templar + cannon turtle. Then you just play standard PvT like mech Terran and never attack until you're 3/0/3, 200/200 with collosus + templar in warp prisms + 5k/5k bank. Sorry if I'm mistaken, but aren't you a terran player? You said yourself on your stream page (http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=181166) that you play terran, and I've read a ton of posts from you talking about nothing but TvP. So did you change races or something? The reason I'm bringing this up is that this is a strategy forum where players discuss things to improve their gameplay, but if people start making claims (not necessarily saying that you are) that are just made up, it can really hurt the integrity of these threads imo. Since I know you are a high level player (and thus will play skilled opponents), it would be great to see you upload some of these replays of you winning virtually every PvT using nexus FFE, would definitely prove the viability of this build on ladder. Avilo's claims, although regularly whiny, are more informed than 99% of people who post on these forums, even when he talks about his offrace.
Alright, fair enough - but what's your view though monk? Since none of the core blue poster Tosses (whom I trust and rely the most on, such as yourself and others who post in the protoss help me thread) have yet to say anything, is the nexus FFE really that solid of a build even against gas opening builds? I watch pretty much every game in the GSL, and I don't think I've yet to see this opening against anything but gasless openings, could be wrong though~
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ToD is using this opener on his stream right now, and I would imagine he will use it some more if you wanna check out how it works for him.
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On April 24 2012 07:23 Micket wrote:
Question. Whats wrong with nexus gateway forge and get the early upgrade anyway? Gasless isn't going to be attacking you. I just don't see the advantage of nexus forge gateway cannon, when the build is designed to fight a fast expanding Terran. You could always build a cannon for the 4+ rax marine timing.
Gasless can do marine/SCV all-in which from my understanding the early forge is meant to keep you safe from.
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From a terran's perspective what is the proper response to something like this? - I've played against this style a couple of times on ladder and lost everytime, generally because I was pretty clueless on how to punish something like this. I've tried getting a super fast third base and playing as greedily as possible getting double ebay and was beaten (probably because that is what the protoss hopes I will do.). A two rax fails horribly as two or three more cannons with a few units are more than enough to hold it off.
I was thinking of some sort of marine / helion elevator to try and cripple a protoss economy, but I think that it would leave me vulnerable to any two base all ins or 4 / 5 gate pressure with +1/
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United States8476 Posts
I don't like to give an opinion on things I don't feel strongly about or haven't developed an opinion on yet, but here's my initial thoughts. Here's a quote to start it off.
On April 18 2012 17:48 Thorzain wrote:
RoX.KiS.Pomi, the russian protoss, has been doing this build for a couple of months already.
I don't like it very much tho. If the terran is gasless, triple OC builds will be good against it. If the terran goes gas, an early elevator will come 1 minute before warpgates are even done, and it will be very hard for the protoss to stop it. It's very hard for the protoss to know what's coming when going up against a gas build going FFE. They have to build more cannons in anticipation of pushes at the front, so they will be even weaker against elevators in the main.
I agree with thorzain in that I don't think this build is very good versus gas builds. But then again, you have nexus first into gateway for versus that. Thorzain also points out that Terran can get away with fast 3OC with this build safely. If you're comfortable playing vs fast 3OC with a nexus first economy, then by all means, do this build. This is the crux of avilo's post, although he puts a fairly terran skew on things. One other thing to consider is that with this build, you can get a faster robotics safely than you normally would, because you can go 1 gate robo instead of the typical 3 gate robo you find with 1 gate FE builds. Thus your observer will get to the Terran's base faster and you can react faster.
I like to compare this build with the 2 other macro builds Protoss has, the 1 gate FE and the Nexus first into gateway build. Both 1 gate FE and Nexus into forge are safe builds in that with proper reactions, you won't die to anything. Nexus into forge gives you better economy at the cost of a lack of potential threats to the Terran. If you open 1 gate FE, terrans will on average be forced to build 2 more bunkers and play more cautiously. They can still, however, "safely" go 3 OC(it is a very common builds vs 1 gate FE) and hold anything Protoss can throw at them IF they know what's coming. That's a big if which relies mainly on lucky scans and sneaking scvs, but it is possible. On the other hand, some terrans will just make a bet on what you're doing and make a bet, essentially coin flipping; if he flips right, you can end up fairly far behind. With all of that information in mind, if you don't plan on doing any gateway pressure off a 1 gate FE, you have to judge for yourself whether the pros of Neuxs into forge outweigh the cons.
The other comparison is to Nexus into gateway. I believe Nexus into forge evolved mainly because Terrans began blind countering Nexus into gateway so much with a proxied 2nd rax. I believe Alive vs Squirtle in the IPL finals illustrated this best when about 3 games in an 8 game series were decided in this way. Nexus into forge builds Terran way behind if they attempt a 2 rax opening whereas 2 rax is pretty autowin vs Nexus into gateway. Funnily enough, I believe because Neuxs into forge is getting so popular, 2 rax will get less popular and thus Neuxs into gateway will rise again.
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On April 24 2012 10:46 Jaegeru wrote:
From a terran's perspective what is the proper response to something like this? - I've played against this style a couple of times on ladder and lost everytime, generally because I was pretty clueless on how to punish something like this. I've tried getting a super fast third base and playing as greedily as possible getting double ebay and was beaten (probably because that is what the protoss hopes I will do.). A two rax fails horribly as two or three more cannons with a few units are more than enough to hold it off.
I was thinking of some sort of marine / helion elevator to try and cripple a protoss economy, but I think that it would leave me vulnerable to any two base all ins or 4 / 5 gate pressure with +1/
This build really can't deny hellion harass early on. Run 4 hellions by the cannon either into the main or natural and you can kill a lot. You can then take a third and continue to harass or just tech straight to drops. That can be done off a 1 rax expand (see MKP vs whitera at IPL4), or you can even do a 1 base build with hellion drops into a 1/1/1, which has been done recently in GSL by supernova.
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If I ever scout FFE as a terran... I personally go for reapers. I usually win shortly after.
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I feel like if you know the forge fast expand build is vulnerable to elevator timings, all you have to do is gear your build for that elevator timing, depending on what you scout from Terran. You scout 2 rax, or 2raxish things, prepare for 2rax, you scout for an elevator timing, prepare for an elevator timing.
It seems pretty simple to me, by X time if there is no elevator and hes still on one base, hes 1 1 1 and you can prepare accordingly.
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What would you suggest as a response after a 15 cc? What I tried was going another command centre, double gas, double engie bay and then more rax to try and stay on par with his upgrades. I think I just botched the engagement a little bit, but here's the replay. http://drop.sc/166293
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Northern Ireland25077 Posts
On April 24 2012 11:01 Tical3000 wrote:
If I ever scout FFE as a terran... I personally go for reapers. I usually win shortly after.
As this build is meant to be used only when no gas is scouted, or assumed and taken as a calculated risk on that benefit I don't see how that point is relevant.
@Vanger, hm I think this is a relatively new style so the optimal responses have yet to be figured out. If you have experience in playing against Nexus-first builds regularly I'd use them as a framework to approach hitting this style, with some caveats.
From the Protoss point of view, the build can diverge too much from the opening for there to be a cast-iron, catch-all response. Basically it holds 2 raxes so tick that option off.
I'd personally go for quick 3rd CC, macro-oriented approaches if you tick off other eventualities. By these I mean primarily stuff like immortal busts and really heavy gateway timings. If you don't suspect some type of midgame timing bust I'd plonk that third CC down. An additional bonus is the extra scans you get from the third CC. The forge build gets a good economy going, quickly, with the additional bonus of letting you cut corners to get advanced up the tech tree as well, so it transitions smoothly to really heavy upgrade styles, collosus-centric play or quick templars. With reference to the Oz game in GSL where he lost using this opener, I think that shows the potential pitfalls of being aggressive and annoying with your gateway armies. Iif you don't recall, he basically spent a few too many forcefields in the middle of Antiga vs ForGG and couldn't hold his third as a result. Lack of midgame map presence, or at least the riskiness of doing so from the Protoss perspective means you can take your own third more safely.
It's keeping an eye of what path he's going down that is most important imo, rather than having a pre-determined response to the opener.
Apologies if this isn't much help or is too vague/non-specific. I just feel the way to win TvP is to outplay your opponent and making better decisions on the fly (while engaging well), glad I don't play Terran and have to face my Aiur brethren tbh!
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As a terran, if i would encounter this build (i usually do gasless FE), i probably will throw a double gas and go for delayed stim timing off 1 base and 3 rax. Because forge needs to be put on 13-15 food, and if its nexus first then on 15 food. My expo will go down only on 17, after my first OC, so thats gives me a room to scount forge/nexus. Yes, that will delay timing of my stim, but warpgate is also quite delayed. Just on first look, when i scount this and throw down refineries:
-30 sec to build refineries;
-25 sec+ around 10 sec to build tech labs (10 sec to get starting 25 gas);
-170 sec on stim research;
235 seconds before stim is done, which is around 4 minutes. + some time to get to the natural of protoss
For protoss to get warpgate: (i assume gate will go down at the same time as my refineries);
-60 sec on gate;
-60 sec (or 80? not sure here) on cyber;
-180 on research (lets say 150, hence chrono);
Gives us 270 seconds, or 4.5 minutes. So this push seems to be viable.
It also quite hard to scount as well, tho if protoss will see terran on 1 base, he will assume something is coming. But obs will be also quite delayed. (im too lazy to do math on that one ;D)
But yea, i don't think terran needs to try to outmacro protoss here. Terran is string in midgame, and somewhat in early game, so might as well abuse that.
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@ Jaegeru:
Don't listen to the other guys above; if you don't have gas yet (and if Protoss has made a forge first it should have been in response to seeing you didn't have any) you're not going to get in on time unless he's just bad.
If you already have gas and he made the forge anyway, go with either the reaper or hellion options the others are talking about and roflstomp the probes in his main.
@ Owl:
Protoss shouldn't be making the forge before the Nexus, that defeats the whole point of the build. I don't place down the forge until 18 supply, since there really isn't anything to worry about unless there was a blind second proxy rax and I failed to count SCVs, in which case an earlier forge wouldn't help anyway.
Liquipedia is your frend: CyCore is 50 seconds (not 80! man that would be rough) but gateway is 65. And warpgate is 160 seconds, not 180 (the 180 number was the overnerf that existed in the public test region for a while but was abandoned). Also, making 2 refineries for a 2rax really messes up the economy if I'm not mistaken; the attack isn't just going to be delayed, it's going to be a bit smaller too.
Protoss can respond to an amount of bio that is clearly a 1 base all-in by pulling a lot of probes in addition to the ~3 cannons and whatever combat units Protoss has. I go Robo before warpgate tech with this build and already have an Immortal out by 7:15. If I rush double Robo I have 3 or 4 Immortals, a Sentry with Guardian Shield ready, a bunch of sacrificeable probes at the natural, and 3 cannons out by the time I get hit by a stim push. Good luck breaking that.
My double robo silliness is probably not normal, but my point is that a FFE protoss can have plenty of units ready by the time a delayed 1 base all-in hits Gateways can make units pre-warpgate, as much as my bretheren often pretend otherwise. Heck, we're ready to survive most not-delayed 1 base all ins; the only reason we're not doing FFE in the face of gas openings is because of fast Reapers and Hellions. Remember, a Nexus first starts paying for itself really quickly, so if you hit with a delayed version of a 1-base attack, you should not be surprised to see that the greedy build has already made an amount of units that you would expect a 1 baser to have. (Consider: 1-1-1 fails hard core vs Nexus first builds in general; by the time all the pieces have been brought together the Protoss have already taken such a lead that the tech no longer matters).
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Just saw MKP play against Hongun twice and he beat this build both times pretty easily with all-ins. On entombed he did a 2 rax marauder/marine/scv all-in into 5 cannons and it wasn't close even though hongun pulled his probes to defend. On ohana a proxy reaper rush killed a lot of workers and never gave him a chance. Definitely worth scouting for these kind of things.
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If I tried this in diamond league where everyone 2 rax's, id lose every single time lol. I would never forge FE vs terran, ever.
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Blazinghand
United States25551 Posts
On April 28 2012 05:52 ishyishy wrote:
If I tried this in diamond league where everyone 2 rax's, id lose every single time lol. I would never forge FE vs terran, ever.
I think that there's some common misconception in this thread that this build would be used against a terran who takes gas. Let me break it down in a graphical format how this build works so we stop getting posts like this:
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/tQmq3.png)
The idea that any sort of build that goes 12 rax 13 gas would ever encounter a nexus first -> forge build is preposterous. If the terran went for a 13 gas (or scouting was denied), protoss just plays this like a normal Nexus first build (take a look at how axslav does it, for example). This doesn't mean an auto-win vs 2 rax or reaper rush or whatever, but Nexus First -> Gateway is totally viable against any terran gas opener.
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On April 28 2012 06:34 Blazinghand wrote:Show nested quote +On April 28 2012 05:52 ishyishy wrote:
If I tried this in diamond league where everyone 2 rax's, id lose every single time lol. I would never forge FE vs terran, ever. I think that there's some common misconception in this thread that this build would be used against a terran who takes gas. Let me break it down in a graphical format how this build works so we stop getting posts like this: The idea that any sort of build that goes 12 rax 13 gas would ever encounter a nexus first -> forge build is preposterous. If the terran went for a 13 gas (or scouting was denied), protoss just plays this like a normal Nexus first build (take a look at how axslav does it, for example). This doesn't mean an auto-win vs 2 rax or reaper rush or whatever, but Nexus First -> Gateway is totally viable against any terran gas opener.
Except that people have been using this at pro level against gas builds. I agree they probably shouldn't, but in some cases you can't really scout the terran in time to make this decision.
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Blazinghand
United States25551 Posts
On April 28 2012 06:54 oOOoOphidian wrote:Show nested quote +On April 28 2012 06:34 Blazinghand wrote:On April 28 2012 05:52 ishyishy wrote:
If I tried this in diamond league where everyone 2 rax's, id lose every single time lol. I would never forge FE vs terran, ever. I think that there's some common misconception in this thread that this build would be used against a terran who takes gas. Let me break it down in a graphical format how this build works so we stop getting posts like this: The idea that any sort of build that goes 12 rax 13 gas would ever encounter a nexus first -> forge build is preposterous. If the terran went for a 13 gas (or scouting was denied), protoss just plays this like a normal Nexus first build (take a look at how axslav does it, for example). This doesn't mean an auto-win vs 2 rax or reaper rush or whatever, but Nexus First -> Gateway is totally viable against any terran gas opener. Except that people have been using this at pro level against gas builds. I agree they probably shouldn't, but in some cases you can't really scout the terran in time to make this decision.
If you can't scout the terran in time, then you can go for a traditional nexus first into gateway build. ishyishy was talking about the very real danger that 2 rax would pose a nexus first into forge build, and I'm pointing out that if there's a possibility your opponent is going for 2 rax (you can't confirm he didn't take gas) then a traditional nexus first build is what he should go for.
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I have a question about this build. I have heard that the response to a one base marine scv timing is to pull probes and get 2 extra cannons but how do you scout this?
If terran just clears the tower and shows just enough marines to clear the probe and prevent the CC from being scouted, do you have to build 3 cannons blindly?
What if terran goes triple OC in the main without showing it at the natural, does that force 3x 150 minerals from the toss, and does that put you way behind?
I can't seem to figure out how to scout w/ this build, you have no units...
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On April 28 2012 07:36 willyallthewei wrote:
I have a question about this build. I have heard that the response to a one base marine scv timing is to pull probes and get 2 extra cannons but how do you scout this?
If terran just clears the tower and shows just enough marines to clear the probe and prevent the CC from being scouted, do you have to build 3 cannons blindly?
What if terran goes triple OC in the main without showing it at the natural, does that force 3x 150 minerals from the toss, and does that put you way behind?
I can't seem to figure out how to scout w/ this build, you have no units...
probes can run around marines and if you suspect something you can keep running around looking for an scv pull
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On April 28 2012 07:48 oOOoOphidian wrote:Show nested quote +On April 28 2012 07:36 willyallthewei wrote:
I have a question about this build. I have heard that the response to a one base marine scv timing is to pull probes and get 2 extra cannons but how do you scout this?
If terran just clears the tower and shows just enough marines to clear the probe and prevent the CC from being scouted, do you have to build 3 cannons blindly?
What if terran goes triple OC in the main without showing it at the natural, does that force 3x 150 minerals from the toss, and does that put you way behind?
I can't seem to figure out how to scout w/ this build, you have no units...
probes can run around marines and if you suspect something you can keep running around looking for an scv pull
I guess i was hoping for a more profound response...
So I'm relying on my opponents lack of micro and map awareness to sneak a probe behind his stuff, ie, if he pushes his marines further and further along the scouting paths, my probe must be able to find an opportunity to run behind on of those marines.
I just don't know, he will have 3 to 4 marines just playing standard, that's a lot of guys to reliably dodge, even w/ 2 probes.
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Basically, you're gambling on the information you get. If you can sneak a scout in and check your opponent's natural and you don't see a command center, then building another cannon or two is going to be fine because your opponent's economy is temporarily weaker and you can afford to pay for some defense. The cannons aren't going anywhere--if he doesn't attack you a couple minutes into the game, then at least the cannons will already be there to help hold a Stim Timing at the front door or to help with whatever else comes your way. It's an investment.
If you're really afraid of an all-in, you can make that second cannon and be only 150 minerals more invested into defense. Then start a third cannon a little later, and then just cancel it if the all-in doesn't come. That helps cover the timing window for an all-in while you wait for Stalkers to come out (which basically close the window at that point). Building a cannon and canceling it is cheap--think of it like building a Pylon to block a Hatchery and screw up your opponent's timings.
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I think this build straight up auto-loses to 4-5 rax reaper once the nexus and forge are scouted. Have used that response myself in the past with great success
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I think LostShadows build would beat this. If you would direct yourselves to http://blip.tv/day9tv/day-9-daily-445-p1-lastshadow-s-tvp-6rax-opening-6089546. It is a command center first followed by a bunker and 6 raxes. The attack comes around 7 ish mins with around 10 marines and 2 scvs, while rallying marines to his base. You can also delay this attack by about 30 seconds to have around 16 marines. It works quite well versus protoss. Not only does it give you great economy but it allows you to kill protoss early. After this attack, you can tech really hard by grabbing all 4 gases, throwing down double Engineering bay, factory and 2 techlabs for stim combat shield, as well as a third, depending on how successful the attack was. If you do no damage, naturally you wouldnt tech this hard, however, you can still get all of these things relatively quickly while remaining defended.
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I saw MKP come across this on a stream recently. As soon as he saw 3 cannons on the ramp he pulled ten SCVs and chewed through the cannons like they were creep tumors and only a couple SCVs died. He sent them back to work and won the game with just a few marines/marauders.
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On April 28 2012 22:35 Doz wrote:
I think this build straight up auto-loses to 4-5 rax reaper once the nexus and forge are scouted. Have used that response myself in the past with great success
No, it doesn't work. If they scout gas they go nexus -> gate. If they scout gasless, nexus -> forge -> gate. 4-5 reapers do not work, they come too late.
All of you saying reapers is auto win are stupid. Probes can wait for reapers, they can steer them away. Decent probe micro can stop reapers. 4-5 reapers off 1 rax take forever, and protoss will already be set for their 6+ gate ass roll of you.
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On April 29 2012 01:47 iAmJeffReY wrote:Show nested quote +On April 28 2012 22:35 Doz wrote:
I think this build straight up auto-loses to 4-5 rax reaper once the nexus and forge are scouted. Have used that response myself in the past with great success No, it doesn't work. If they scout gas they go nexus -> gate. If they scout gasless, nexus -> forge -> gate. 4-5 reapers do not work, they come too late. All of you saying reapers is auto win are stupid. Probes can wait for reapers, they can steer them away. Decent probe micro can stop reapers. 4-5 reapers off 1 rax take forever, and protoss will already be set for their 6+ gate ass roll of you.
4-5 rax reaper != 4-5 reapers off 1 rax.
However, yeah, 4-5 rax reaper after a gasless opening would take way too long to work.
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On April 29 2012 01:53 iSTime wrote:Show nested quote +On April 29 2012 01:47 iAmJeffReY wrote:On April 28 2012 22:35 Doz wrote:
I think this build straight up auto-loses to 4-5 rax reaper once the nexus and forge are scouted. Have used that response myself in the past with great success No, it doesn't work. If they scout gas they go nexus -> gate. If they scout gasless, nexus -> forge -> gate. 4-5 reapers do not work, they come too late. All of you saying reapers is auto win are stupid. Probes can wait for reapers, they can steer them away. Decent probe micro can stop reapers. 4-5 reapers off 1 rax take forever, and protoss will already be set for their 6+ gate ass roll of you. 4-5 rax reaper != 4-5 reapers off 1 rax. However, yeah, 4-5 rax reaper after a gasless opening would take way too long to work.
It would have to be a 12/14 2 rax and I feel protoss 9 scouting would see this, and not Nexus-forge-gateway, and would do a standard nexus->2 gate -> core double stalker after 1-2 zeals and hold any reaper attack with ease... Of course, map dependent on both sides, but 9 scout gets in a LOT of the time on a LOT of the maps. Especially since there are so many 2 player maps, and forced spawn '3 player' maps
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I play random, I use FFE as protoss alot vs terran. Nexus first, then forge first w/ 1 gas allows you to have access to very fast upgrades, a single cannon is very good vs marine pressure, and i always start gate before forge is 2/3 done. Keeping it to one gas allows you a very good mineral income and you can easily chrono a good eco advantage out and add gates-gas>tech and get storm or collosi when you take a 3rd
also, in oz vs maru group D recently + Show Spoiler +oz did this build. Upon scouting, maru canceled his expansion and build 4 additional rax outside oz's base. 5 rax marine pressure + pulled about 15 scvs. Oz easily held it with one gate going, 2 cannons, and pulling probes.as long as you scout effectively, this build can survive a lot.
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On April 29 2012 00:21 SuperPro wrote:I think LostShadows build would beat this. If you would direct yourselves to http://blip.tv/day9tv/day-9-daily-445-p1-lastshadow-s-tvp-6rax-opening-6089546. It is a command center first followed by a bunker and 6 raxes. The attack comes around 7 ish mins with around 10 marines and 2 scvs, while rallying marines to his base. You can also delay this attack by about 30 seconds to have around 16 marines. It works quite well versus protoss. Not only does it give you great economy but it allows you to kill protoss early. After this attack, you can tech really hard by grabbing all 4 gases, throwing down double Engineering bay, factory and 2 techlabs for stim combat shield, as well as a third, depending on how successful the attack was. If you do no damage, naturally you wouldnt tech this hard, however, you can still get all of these things relatively quickly while remaining defended.
Actually it is literally as hard a counter as you can possibly find. You just need to scout a little and put 2-3 more cannons down (maybe that's even an overreaction). I just played it on ladder and absolutely crushed it on ohana, which was even more difficult than it otherwise might have been because, after seeing the cannons, he tried to go around through the rocks and avoided 1.5 of my 3 cannons (avoided 1 only half the time). I then got 2 colossi and range and rolled him over a couple minutes later...
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SuperPro read the spoiler above. Marines are terrible vs cannons, protoss has probes at the natural to pull and buffer even more. Additional cannons are needed, but usually just 2 total
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On April 29 2012 01:53 iSTime wrote:Show nested quote +On April 29 2012 01:47 iAmJeffReY wrote:On April 28 2012 22:35 Doz wrote:
I think this build straight up auto-loses to 4-5 rax reaper once the nexus and forge are scouted. Have used that response myself in the past with great success No, it doesn't work. If they scout gas they go nexus -> gate. If they scout gasless, nexus -> forge -> gate. 4-5 reapers do not work, they come too late. All of you saying reapers is auto win are stupid. Probes can wait for reapers, they can steer them away. Decent probe micro can stop reapers. 4-5 reapers off 1 rax take forever, and protoss will already be set for their 6+ gate ass roll of you. 4-5 rax reaper != 4-5 reapers off 1 rax. However, yeah, 4-5 rax reaper after a gasless opening would take way too long to work.
"!=" lolol u cant assume everyone that plays sc2 knows what that is. Do you also say,
if(bunker=built)
build robo;
else
dont;
we should all talk like this, it would be entertaining.
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On April 29 2012 04:32 AlphaDotCom wrote:Show nested quote +On April 29 2012 01:53 iSTime wrote:On April 29 2012 01:47 iAmJeffReY wrote:On April 28 2012 22:35 Doz wrote:
I think this build straight up auto-loses to 4-5 rax reaper once the nexus and forge are scouted. Have used that response myself in the past with great success No, it doesn't work. If they scout gas they go nexus -> gate. If they scout gasless, nexus -> forge -> gate. 4-5 reapers do not work, they come too late. All of you saying reapers is auto win are stupid. Probes can wait for reapers, they can steer them away. Decent probe micro can stop reapers. 4-5 reapers off 1 rax take forever, and protoss will already be set for their 6+ gate ass roll of you. 4-5 rax reaper != 4-5 reapers off 1 rax. However, yeah, 4-5 rax reaper after a gasless opening would take way too long to work. "!=" lolol u cant assume everyone that plays sc2 knows what that is. Do you also say, if(bunker=built) build robo; else dont; we should all talk like this, it would be entertaining.
for(race = toss, oponnent = terran, qq++){
System.out.println("TvP so imba")
}
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The thing I really dislike about this build is that its very difficult to know whether or not terran got a fast 3rd orbital or at what time he built it. Theoretically you could be getting a robo with a cannon supported nexus first as protoss at around 6 minutes, but to do that you'd have to cut units a bit and its more realistically going to be 6:30-7. By the time your obs sees whether or not he reacts with a third it will be too late for you to take a fast 3rd in response.
On the other hand, playing 2 base vs 3 orbitals is honestly not that horrible if you start your armor upgrade like a full 2 game minutes before you normally would be able to with a traditional gateway expand. Additionally, there's no way he'll be landing his 3rd orbital before about 9 or 10 minutes at which point you can very easily have started your own third.
It's a good build, but you just have to be very conscious of when he's going to try for some kind of 2 base bust and not over-react if he doesn't. Kind of involves some guess work at times.
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I wrote a guide which will be up on team dignitas website pretty soon check it out!
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On April 29 2012 06:50 saltymango wrote:
I wrote a guide which will be up on team dignitas website pretty soon check it out!
Would you be so kind as to link here as well?
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On April 24 2012 09:25 NrGmonk wrote:Show nested quote +On April 24 2012 09:19 Zealot Lord wrote:On April 24 2012 08:01 avilo wrote:
I do the nexus forge fast expand every PvT I play so far, and win virtually every PvT...it's a good build. And for people saying Terran can just drop you or kill your or something...not really. You can have so many units in the mid-game that you will never die to any 2 base from Terran...
And if Terran goes for 3 bases...or an in-base orbital...well, this is what every Protoss player WANTS. The game to drag on long because the longer the game goes, the better it is for the Protoss player.
It's a strong, strong build. And reaper does nothing to it. You build the cannon at the front, take 5 probes to your cliff wherever the reaper will hop up...now you are so far ahead it's not even funny, you'll be usually ~20 probes ahead from chronoboost if Terran went reaper first.
So as said...you get every advantage. You get fast upgrades, you get a huge mid-game army that you can all-in with very easily, you entice Terran to play lategame against you, and you will have so much that you can hold off any all-ins EASY. You can even metagame this a lot of times and take your third nexus early with +2 armor chargelots, mass guardian shield/FFs, into templar + cannon turtle. Then you just play standard PvT like mech Terran and never attack until you're 3/0/3, 200/200 with collosus + templar in warp prisms + 5k/5k bank. Sorry if I'm mistaken, but aren't you a terran player? You said yourself on your stream page (http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=181166) that you play terran, and I've read a ton of posts from you talking about nothing but TvP. So did you change races or something? The reason I'm bringing this up is that this is a strategy forum where players discuss things to improve their gameplay, but if people start making claims (not necessarily saying that you are) that are just made up, it can really hurt the integrity of these threads imo. Since I know you are a high level player (and thus will play skilled opponents), it would be great to see you upload some of these replays of you winning virtually every PvT using nexus FFE, would definitely prove the viability of this build on ladder. Avilo's claims, although regularly whiny, are more informed than 99% of people who post on these forums, even when he talks about his offrace.
Eh, yes I know my strats, i also use multiple warp prisms with high templar, something Protosses currently don't do because they like getting templar EMP'd. I also make cannon rings with templar patrolling in between so you can never be dropped...ever.
If you put 4-12 templars in 2-3 speed prisms with a max deathball Terran can never kill your army and you are always guaranteed to get off 2-4 storms which of course means Terran loses.
Replays here, have fun abusing PvT lategame a bunch of these should be the nexus into forge into gateway expand as described in this thread. I believe there is also a game where Terran tries to 2 rax allin and just as said in this thread, you simply scout it and build 2-3 more cannons + pull probes and you are ahead 15-20 workers after that.
https://rapidshare.com/files/4222639651/aviloPvTFFEreplays.rar
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On April 29 2012 14:25 avilo wrote:
If you put 4-12 templars in 2-3 speed prisms with a max deathball Terran can never kill your army and you are always guaranteed to get off 2-4 storms which of course means Terran loses.
Wait a second here...if my calculations are correct and 2+2 does in fact = 4 then that would mean that protoss players would actually have it even easier lategame?
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On April 29 2012 14:25 avilo wrote:Show nested quote +On April 24 2012 09:25 NrGmonk wrote:On April 24 2012 09:19 Zealot Lord wrote:On April 24 2012 08:01 avilo wrote:
I do the nexus forge fast expand every PvT I play so far, and win virtually every PvT...it's a good build. And for people saying Terran can just drop you or kill your or something...not really. You can have so many units in the mid-game that you will never die to any 2 base from Terran...
And if Terran goes for 3 bases...or an in-base orbital...well, this is what every Protoss player WANTS. The game to drag on long because the longer the game goes, the better it is for the Protoss player.
It's a strong, strong build. And reaper does nothing to it. You build the cannon at the front, take 5 probes to your cliff wherever the reaper will hop up...now you are so far ahead it's not even funny, you'll be usually ~20 probes ahead from chronoboost if Terran went reaper first.
So as said...you get every advantage. You get fast upgrades, you get a huge mid-game army that you can all-in with very easily, you entice Terran to play lategame against you, and you will have so much that you can hold off any all-ins EASY. You can even metagame this a lot of times and take your third nexus early with +2 armor chargelots, mass guardian shield/FFs, into templar + cannon turtle. Then you just play standard PvT like mech Terran and never attack until you're 3/0/3, 200/200 with collosus + templar in warp prisms + 5k/5k bank. Sorry if I'm mistaken, but aren't you a terran player? You said yourself on your stream page (http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=181166) that you play terran, and I've read a ton of posts from you talking about nothing but TvP. So did you change races or something? The reason I'm bringing this up is that this is a strategy forum where players discuss things to improve their gameplay, but if people start making claims (not necessarily saying that you are) that are just made up, it can really hurt the integrity of these threads imo. Since I know you are a high level player (and thus will play skilled opponents), it would be great to see you upload some of these replays of you winning virtually every PvT using nexus FFE, would definitely prove the viability of this build on ladder. Avilo's claims, although regularly whiny, are more informed than 99% of people who post on these forums, even when he talks about his offrace. Eh, yes I know my strats, i also use multiple warp prisms with high templar, something Protosses currently don't do because they like getting templar EMP'd. I also make cannon rings with templar patrolling in between so you can never be dropped...ever. If you put 4-12 templars in 2-3 speed prisms with a max deathball Terran can never kill your army and you are always guaranteed to get off 2-4 storms which of course means Terran loses. Replays here, have fun abusing PvT lategame a bunch of these should be the nexus into forge into gateway expand as described in this thread. I believe there is also a game where Terran tries to 2 rax allin and just as said in this thread, you simply scout it and build 2-3 more cannons + pull probes and you are ahead 15-20 workers after that. https://rapidshare.com/files/4222639651/aviloPvTFFEreplays.rar
Thanks for the pack, but those games are fairly chaotic, do you have some more standard games that demonstrate your points?
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On April 29 2012 14:25 avilo wrote:
Eh, yes I know my strats, i also use multiple warp prisms with high templar, something Protosses currently don't do because they like getting templar EMP'd. I also make cannon rings with templar patrolling in between so you can never be dropped...ever.
If you put 4-12 templars in 2-3 speed prisms with a max deathball Terran can never kill your army and you are always guaranteed to get off 2-4 storms which of course means Terran loses.
Like that second game where you lost 2 prisms full of 8 templars, to vikings ?
In any case, it's good to see the build in action, but I'm a bit disappointed by the games. The last 3 aren't even about FFE and have no place in a pack named "FFE". The other games are all long macro games where the terran didn't put much pressure ( or bad one ).
Would you have any replay demonstrating terran going fast marine / helion drop, rines/tanks/scvs 8'30 rush, or 1-base all-ins vs FFE ? I think that's a lot more important than macro games where terran is 10 scvs behind in the early game and does nothing about it :p
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Happy vs Choya
Did Choya build his Forge or Gate first?
This SCV pull might actually work on 2 player maps.
LOL if this is the counter.
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United States8476 Posts
He went gateway first, not forge first.
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Polt pulled workers and dis proxy 2rax. Hero still holded with this build. It has potential
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EPT
