Yes, this is a thread on TL that involves religion, but I hate to think that our policy should be to blindly close every such thread. Sam Harris is a writer whose books are both insightful and have sparked many good discussions in the past and as long as the thread doesn't derail I'd like to leave it open. This should be the basic premise for every such thread, no matter how high the odds of it derailing. In that light, these posts that just predict the downfall of this thread (whether it be pre-determined or not) are 1) Not contributing to the discussion 2) Backseat moderating 3) Annoying 4) Actually contributing towards derailing it. I'll keep 2 daying people for this.
To preempt that, I felt that I should write down my own thoughts on free will.
I simply cannot see how free will can fit into what we know about the universe. The universe is governed by the laws of physics, therefore there is no scope for free will to exist. Everything in the universe, and hence every thought and action made by a human is simply the motion of particles obeying certain laws. Therefore, free will does not exist because we cannot choose how the particles that constitute our body move, they move in accordance with the laws of physics. Random or deterministic, it doesn't matter, because we cannot exert influence nor make choices independent of the motion of particles that are dictated by these laws in either case.
As with everything in the universe, every thought and action made by a person is not a result of free will, it's a result of the laws of physics acting on particles.
Not even the intrinsic randomness of Quantum Mechanics saves the free will hypothesis, as this would imply that your thoughts and actions are caused by fundamentally unpredictable random processes. If so, then they are the result of a universal RNG, thus they would still not be free.
The only reason theologians and religious people latch on to the completely unscientific notion of free will is to "explain" why bad things happen. If God is good, then why did he let the genocide in Rwanda happen? Why does he not intervene in the the mass-murder being conducted by the Syrian government, as we speak? Why is there evil in the world. Because God gave us free will, allegedly. This is then neatly tied into the Original Sin myth, whereby Eve exerted free will and chose to eat from the Garden of Eden, and this frivolous reason somehow necessitated that Jesus die on the cross.
Religions abuse this nonexistent notion of free will in an attempt to explain away the gaping flaws of the God hypothesis and the existence of evil.
is it my decision to move? yes it is, nothing could force me to lift my leg. Instead if I make the conscious decision to move my leg my brain will send out electric impulses that start the biochemic reactions that take place in my muscles so that I can move my leg.
There is no outer force or atomic movement involved here which I can not control. I move because I want to and not because an electron randomly decides to move down my spine into my leg.
so I think your point is invalid.
on the point of free will in religion. Take islam for example there is no consens in that religion if we have free will or not. Some say we do and some say we dont and based on that the texts are different. And the islam is based on the old testament, so it's not as convinient as you make it out jsut because some like to think that religion begins and ends with Christianity.
the only things that you have to do in life is eat, shit, sleep and die the rest is optional.
@ Skilledblob It's not your decision to move, at least not in the way you say it is. We talk about it as if it is our decision, but the 'decision' to move starts in the brain, and it is a reaction on something which makes you move. Ofcourse there can be internall reasons to make yourself move, but it's not a decision by 'you' (as the overlord controlling the body), merely it's simply cause and effect. Which causes and which effects is hard to determine, but it's there.
To the OP, i compeletely agree with your post and maybe this is an interesting video on Youtube you want to add on your post:
Thousands and thousands of TL posts on religion and freewill. None ended or will end up well. That is the nature of serious topic vs internet anonymity. It's bound to get messy soon.
On topic, slightly, I've been following Sam Harris since Project Reason and have read his End of Faith. Nothing really earth-shattering though.
On March 05 2012 21:48 Timmsh wrote: @ Skilledblob It's not your decision to move, at least not in the way you say it is. We talk about it as if it is our decision, but the 'decision' to move starts in the brain, and it is a reaction on something which makes you move. Ofcourse there can be internall reasons to make yourself move, but it's not a decision by 'you' (as the overlord controlling the body), merely it's simply cause and effect. Which causes and which effects is hard to determine, but it's there.
you argue like a priest. "I dont know why it is this way but it has to be this way!" because of XYZ uncontrollable power
I feel like there's something missing, your point is that we don't have free will and then your conclusion is religions abuse it. But that wasn't your original point at all.
On March 05 2012 21:48 Timmsh wrote: @ Skilledblob It's not your decision to move, at least not in the way you say it is. We talk about it as if it is our decision, but the 'decision' to move starts in the brain, and it is a reaction on something which makes you move. Ofcourse there can be internall reasons to make yourself move, but it's not a decision by 'you' (as the overlord controlling the body), merely it's simply cause and effect. Which causes and which effects is hard to determine, but it's there.
you argue like a priest. "I dont know why it is this way but it has to be this way!" because of XYZ uncontrollable power
Sorry dude but you missed the point, I said i don't know the cause, but i do know there is a cause! Which is the most important thing in this discussion, because if you know there is a cause to your decisions, you cannot believe in an 'external controller' you say it is.
You said, it's my decision to move, as if you are external of this universe and just control your body. I only said that's not true, and the universe has influence on your decisions in such a way, you only THINK your in controll.
On March 05 2012 21:43 Skilledblob wrote: is it my decision to move? yes it is, nothing could force me to lift my leg. Instead if I make the conscious decision to move my leg my brain will send out electric impulses that start the biochemic reactions that take place in my muscles so that I can move my leg.
There is no outer force or atomic movement involved here which I can not control. I move because I want to and not because an electron randomly decides to move down my spine into my leg.
That's not how it works. In reality, more often than not, your leg moves first, then your conscious mind comes up with a justification why you want your leg to move and records a false memory where the after-action justification becomes the cause of the movement. Well, that's what the best data says anyway, there's still some ambiguity. Look up the Libet experiment and the neuroscience of free will.
This is slightly different from the philosophical debate of how deterministic physical laws and the possibility of free will relate to each other.
Your belief in determinism was determined by the predetermined motion of atoms in your brain, as is Skilledblob's disbelief. So the ultimate explanation for our thoughts and beliefs do not come down to how well we pursue truth or science, but by the happenstance of atomic motion.
On March 05 2012 21:48 Timmsh wrote: @ Skilledblob It's not your decision to move, at least not in the way you say it is. We talk about it as if it is our decision, but the 'decision' to move starts in the brain, and it is a reaction on something which makes you move. Ofcourse there can be internall reasons to make yourself move, but it's not a decision by 'you' (as the overlord controlling the body), merely it's simply cause and effect. Which causes and which effects is hard to determine, but it's there.
you argue like a priest. "I dont know why it is this way but it has to be this way!" because of XYZ uncontrollable power
Sorry dude but you missed the point, I said i don't know the cause, but i do know there is a cause! Which is the most important thing in this discussion, because if you know there is a cause to your decisions, you cannot believe in an 'external controller' you say it is.
You said, it's my decision to move, as if you are external of this universe and just control your body. I only said that's not true, and the universe has influence on your decisions in such a way, you only THINK your in controll.
You state it as if it is a fact.
The two cannot be distinguished, that is why people keep discussing it.
The universe is very old and complex, our observational ability isn't good enough to fully predict even the interactions of a couple atoms. I'd say with our current level of understanding, it'd be nothing but hubris to admit to something like determinism. Even if we admitted to it, it wouldn't change anything. Unable to explain the ultimate causes of our actions, we'd still have to rely on the concept of free will.
Simplified, computers make decisions based on a set based of rules that have been programmed in. The decisions are then reflected by pixels shown on the screen. The most advanced AIs simply are able to reprogram those rules that initially impact the decision, but the methods that it uses to reprogram those rules are still other rules, so to speak.
I think that the human brain is simply an incredibly advanced super computer that we cannot fully comprehend. Instead of wires, we have neurones in the brain. The way that our neurones are wired is based upon our past experiences as well as the way the brain has evolved over millions of years. Any decision that we make is purely based upon how the electrical signals travel in the neurones and where they end up.
To me, the concept of free will is simply an easy way to explain all the decisions that we make that we cannot understand. However, I think that in the future, if we were able to examine the brain under a super microscope, we would be able to understand every single decision made based upon the way that our neurones connect and change based on experiences.
I am fully open to being wrong however. I also suggest that the OP take away the 'religion' from the topic title as this discussion seems to be more focused on free will than religion.
OK. Fair enough. So what's the problem? What is the inconvinience of living like that? What is the problem with not fully controlling oneself because of what was explained in the OP, and living alongside an infinite amount of illusions? What's wrong with religion abusing this? I don't see any real problem arising from this debate, honestly. Now I'll go play SC2... Oh wait, it isn't actually me playing. So what? I really don't care.
On March 05 2012 21:43 Skilledblob wrote: is it my decision to move? yes it is, nothing could force me to lift my leg. Instead if I make the conscious decision to move my leg my brain will send out electric impulses that start the biochemic reactions that take place in my muscles so that I can move my leg.
There is no outer force or atomic movement involved here which I can not control. I move because I want to and not because an electron randomly decides to move down my spine into my leg.
so I think your point is invalid.
on the point of free will in religion. Take islam for example there is no consens in that religion if we have free will or not. Some say we do and some say we dont and based on that the texts are different. And the islam is based on the old testament, so it's not as convinient as you make it out jsut because some like to think that religion begins and ends with Christianity.
the only things that you have to do in life is eat, shit, sleep and die the rest is optional.
Your decision to move is caused by electrical signals between synapses in your brain, these electrical signals are caused by biochemical reactions, these biochemical reactions are caused by the motion of particles, the motion of these particles are dictated by the laws of physics.
At no point in the chain of actions is your will exerted.
Every action in this chain has a prior cause, and if we trace this back, we end up at the motion of particles, of which you have no conscious control over.
and I dont understand why someone has to bring up religion all the time. Religion is no answer, religion is an option. If some more understood this then we could stop lots of these childish religion yes/no discussions.
On March 05 2012 21:48 Timmsh wrote: @ Skilledblob It's not your decision to move, at least not in the way you say it is. We talk about it as if it is our decision, but the 'decision' to move starts in the brain, and it is a reaction on something which makes you move. Ofcourse there can be internall reasons to make yourself move, but it's not a decision by 'you' (as the overlord controlling the body), merely it's simply cause and effect. Which causes and which effects is hard to determine, but it's there.
you argue like a priest. "I dont know why it is this way but it has to be this way!" because of XYZ uncontrollable power
Sorry dude but you missed the point, I said i don't know the cause, but i do know there is a cause! Which is the most important thing in this discussion, because if you know there is a cause to your decisions, you cannot believe in an 'external controller' you say it is.
You said, it's my decision to move, as if you are external of this universe and just control your body. I only said that's not true, and the universe has influence on your decisions in such a way, you only THINK your in controll.
You state it as if it is a fact.
The two cannot be distinguished, that is why people keep discussing it.
First of all, i don't really know what you mean by 'the two' Second of all, if they cannot be destinguished, then we both talk about the same we just call it differently. My question to skilledblob is then: do you believe in an external force which can manipulate particles in the brain, which is not influenced by the universe?
EPT
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