EPTFree Will and Religion - Page 2
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Yes, this is a thread on TL that involves religion, but I hate to think that our policy should be to blindly close every such thread. Sam Harris is a writer whose books are both insightful and have sparked many good discussions in the past and as long as the thread doesn't derail I'd like to leave it open. This should be the basic premise for every such thread, no matter how high the odds of it derailing. In that light, these posts that just predict the downfall of this thread (whether it be pre-determined or not) are 1) Not contributing to the discussion 2) Backseat moderating 3) Annoying 4) Actually contributing towards derailing it. I'll keep 2 daying people for this. | ||
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Cirqueenflex
499 Posts
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knatt
Sweden21 Posts
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kerpal
United Kingdom2695 Posts
having said that, i think that when a mod is confronted with a thread such as this, they are pre-determined to close it. User was warned for this post | ||
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DeepElemBlues
United States5080 Posts
having said that, i think that when a mod is confronted with a thread such as this, they are pre-determined to close it. This thread has just been won. User was temp banned for this post. | ||
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solidbebe
Netherlands4921 Posts
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spinesheath
Germany8679 Posts
This only contradicts free will in some definitions. If you however interpret free will as the uniqueness of each human and thus the "ability" (and right) to act and react differently than other humans, there is no contradiction. | ||
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CyDe
United States1010 Posts
That being said, I think the fact that we as humans have the ability to realize this is very significant and amazing. | ||
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QuestSeekers
United States39 Posts
On March 05 2012 21:37 paralleluniverse wrote: As with everything in the universe, every thought and action made by a person is not a result of free will, it's a result of the laws of physics acting on particles. The only reason theologians and religious people latch on to the completely unscientific notion of free will is to "explain" why bad things happen. If God is good, then why did he let the genocide in Rwanda happen? Why does he not intervene in the the mass-murder being conducted by the Syrian government, as we speak? Why is there evil in the world. Because God gave us free will, allegedly. This is then neatly tied into the Original Sin myth, whereby Eve exerted free will and chose to eat from the Garden of Eden, and this frivolous reason somehow necessitated that Jesus die on the cross. Religions abuse this nonexistent notion of free will in an attempt to explain away the gaping flaws of the God hypothesis and the existence of evil. The above is an anachronistic understanding of religion, theology, and theodicy. | ||
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BlackJack
United States10574 Posts
yeah, that was a good one | ||
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paralleluniverse
4065 Posts
On March 05 2012 22:05 Tanukki wrote: The universe is very old and complex, our observational ability isn't good enough to fully predict even the interactions of a couple atoms. I'd say with our current level of understanding, it'd be nothing but hubris to admit to something like determinism. Even if we admitted to it, it wouldn't change anything. Unable to explain the ultimate causes of our actions, we'd still have to rely on the concept of free will. It wouldn't be hubris to say that free will is false, any more than it is hubris to say fairies do not exist or God does not exist. In both these cases, the notion of fairies and God are not supported by evidence and is not consistent with what we know about how the universe works. Free will is the same, there is no evidence that it exists. Further, the existence of free will is inconsistent with everything that is observed and known about how the universe works. The universe works by following unchangeable laws, your thoughts are merely a product of these laws acting on particles, rather than the controller of these particles. I never claimed that the universe is deterministic. Our current understanding is that on the particle level (i.e. the quantum level), the universe is random, but on a macro level it is essentially deterministic. However, a random universe would not save the free will hypothesis, as you still would not be in control of your thoughts, if your thoughts were a product of some universal RNG. | ||
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kerpal
United Kingdom2695 Posts
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kerpal
United Kingdom2695 Posts
oh you guys! *blush* | ||
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carrion
United Kingdom87 Posts
But I dont think we have absolute freewill all the time. We do simply as in Skilledbob's example of moving your leg. However I believe that your free will can be influenced by your hormones and desires of your body/subconscious. You might think the following a silly example, but when you're very hungry and you walk past your favourite fast-food place the urge to buy amplifies cause your subconscious wants it. Perhaps a more serious example was an article I read in new scientist years ago about a man who had paedophilic tendencies and was diagnosed with brain cancer. They cut out the tumour and his paedophilic urges went away and he was pleased. But then those urges returned and it turned out the tumour had returned. Religion is fictional so there is nothing to debate. | ||
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paralleluniverse
4065 Posts
On March 05 2012 21:58 solidbebe wrote: I feel like there's something missing, your point is that we don't have free will and then your conclusion is religions abuse it. But that wasn't your original point at all. My point is that we don't have free will. But religions erroneously claim we do to explain away the existence of evil in the world. | ||
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Integra
Sweden5626 Posts
 User was temp banned for this post. | ||
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Zergmeister
Denmark56 Posts
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knatt
Sweden21 Posts
On March 05 2012 22:17 CyDe wrote: I suppose when you look at it that way, yes everything that you do and think is just chemical reacting with each other and causing you to perceive and react to everything there is. Slightly depressing thought, knowing that really you are pretty basic. With the most complex algorithm in the universe, it would probably be possible to predict everything happening in the future and thereby destroying free will. That being said, I think the fact that we as humans have the ability to realize this is very significant and amazing. Lets say that we predict what will happen. Like someone calculates that I will go for a vacation in Korea, but since someone told me, I chose not to go just to defy the logic. Then I broke the law of the universe? | ||
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Timmsh
Netherlands201 Posts
I think that responsibility is very practical, specially when you see the human as an organism who likes to be in controll of things.(which is the reason why whe punish and have justice in the first place) This does not mean that that this is an essential element of the universe, but maybe it is essential however, for a society. to conclude, i think it's a very practical tool | ||
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LUTROSIS
United States54 Posts
sadly in the wider scale everyone is very impressionable and uses there will to copy/imitate/follow others even if they don't know their doing it so you are correct... but in a way that doesn't matter? as even if our actions could be predicted ahead of time by analyzing every little interaction showing things are predetermined ... theres still 'quantum theory'?? ( oh noes?) assuming i read that right? | ||
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Geiko
France2033 Posts
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