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Victoire!
France, especially the women's groups, are ecstatic over the state memorandum issued by Prime Minister François Fillon recently! The memo ordered the honorific "mademoiselle — akin to “damsel” and the equivalent of “miss” — banished from official forms and registries. The use of “mademoiselle,” he wrote, made reference “without justification nor necessity” to a woman’s “matrimonial situation,” whereas “monsieur” has long signified simply “sir.”
Truly, this is another victory for women's rights in specific, and human equality in general. This move has been lobbied for almost a year mainly by two French feminist organizations “Osez le féminisme!” (“Dare to be feminist!”) and Les Chiennes de Garde (The Watchdogs). The groups claim that this distinction is inherently gender insensitive as it discriminates between women's marital status.
To be honest, I am personally torn with this issue? We have a saying in French that goes something like "say 'mademoiselle' with sweetness and tenderness, as you would a virgin lady, and 'madame' with firmness and honor, as any woman." I understand that being French is naturally linked with being romantic, even the language displays this characteristic, and this is why I think madamoiselle is a necessary distinction. You will notice that 'madame' gives no clue on the marital status, thus in actual social etiquette, it is used as a guage on ones interest or attraction in a woman who's marital status is not know. That's why when, as a joke among French say, a French guy approaches a woman as "mademoiselle", it is an obvious indication of interest, while "madame" just signifies politeness, and even cordial uninterest. My main argument against this memo is that these are uniqueness and richness of culture. Even some quarters are saying this is extreme feminism on the price of culture. On the other hand, I completely understand that one's marital status should hold no bearing on one's social functions and records, especially that men are not subject to such "discrimination".
In general terms, I am curious to see how this will affect France society and culture as a whole, except for massive reprinting of forms (which by standard require people to choose among mademoiselle, madame, and monsieur). Will the people even catch on with it? What do you think of this proclamation? Will English and the rest of the countries Latin-based languages differentiating single women from married ones follow suit?
Sources:
http://www.madameoumadame.fr/
+ Show Spoiler +
Victoire !
Comme nous le réclamions en septembre dernier, le Premier ministre a signé une nouvelle circulaire, datée de mardi 21 février, pour faire disparaître des formulaires administratifs la mention "mademoiselle" a profit de "madame" et remplacer la notion de "nom de jeune fille" et "nom d'épouse", par "nom de famille" et "nom d'usage", plus neutres et mixtes.
Plusieurs circulaires avaient déjà appelé les administrations à éviter l'emploi de ces mentions "se référant à la situation matrimoniale des femmes "sans justification, ni nécessité". Le document rappelle que "ces mentions ne constituent pas un élément d'état civil" et que "l'emploi de la civilité "Madame" devra être privilégié, comme l'équivalent de Monsieur pour les hommes, qui préjuge pas de la situation maritale de ces derniers."
Le terme de nom de jeune fille est supprimé au profit de "nom de famille" "au regard de la possibilité reconnue à un homme marié de prendre le nom de son épouse comme nom d'usage."
Osez le féminisme ! et les Chiennes de Garde se félicitent de la publication par les services du Premier Ministre d’une circulaire supprimant les termes « Mademoiselle », « nom de jeune fille » et « nom d’épouse » des formulaires administratifs.
Cette circulaire était une des principales revendications de notre campagne « Mademoiselle, la case en trop » lancée en septembre dernier.
Nous saluons également l’action des communes de Cesson Sévigné et de Fontenay-sous-Bois qui ont supprimé ces termes ces dernières semaines.
Nous demandons au gouvernement et aux services administratifs concernés de veiller à l’application de cette circulaire. Nous ne nous satisferons pas de simples déclarations : nous voulons des résultats concrets.
Osez le féminisme ! et les Chiennes de Garde ré-interpellerons les politiques sur ce sujet tant que nécessaire.
Nous invitons également les entreprises et les organismes privés à suivre le mouvement en supprimant les termes « Mademoiselle », « nom de jeune fille » et « nom d’épouse » de tous leurs formulaires.
Osez le féminisme et les chiennes de garde
21/02/12
Vous ne vous êtes jamais demandé pourquoi on n'appelait pas un homme célibataire « Mondamoiseau », voire « jeune puceau » ? Pas étonnant, ce type de distinction est réservé aux femmes…En effet, en France, en 2011, les femmes et les hommes ne sont toujours pas logés à la même enseigne : civilité unique pour les hommes, double civilité pour les femmes !
Osez le féminisme et les Chiennes de garde avaient lancé une campagne intitulée « Mademoiselle, la case en trop » en septembre dernier pour rappeler que la distinction Madame/Mademoiselle n’est ni flatteuse, ni obligatoire. Et surtout, qu’elle est le signe du sexisme ordinaire qui perdure dans notre société.
Cette campagne avait vocation à mettre fin à cette inégalité, mais aussi à informer les femmes de leurs droits et à mettre à leur disposition des outils pour faire changer leur civilité.C'est aujourd'hui chose faite!
http://circulaire.legifrance.gouv.fr/
http://circulaire.legifrance.gouv.fr/pdf/2012/02/cir_34682.pdf
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/02/23/world/europe/france-drops-mademoiselle-from-official-use.html?_r=1
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So, is this the equivalent of getting rid of Ms. from English? If so that would be slightly awesome, considering that I can never figure out whether to say Miss, Miz, Missus, etc. Although I have to say that changing language as subtle as that is no major improvement in women's rights, I can see the point. Although I do like the word, "Mademoiselle"... a pretty word.
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Finnaly! I hope the rest of the world will follow.
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I'm all for women's rights, but isn't this kind of a non-issue that they solved? It would be a bigger deal if they broke the glass ceiling separating men and women in the workplace. Well, in any case, good for them. I guess it's a bit tough for me to understand, being a male, but I suppose it's a step in the right direction.
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Good stuff, now open jobs like day care, social workers, care assistants, front desk (example: receptionists, retail sales) to males.
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Wow, I know that after the fifties and sixties the Germans Kind of did the same thing with Fraulein Now its just Frau, no distinction. the homogenization of langauge, not just between languages and dialects, but even within the language as a whole (based on cultural shifts) is not really something new, what will be will be, either this will catch on with the population as a whole, and mademoiselle will go away and no one will say it much anymore (with the possible exception of more senior members of society, you know old people) or it will effect interpersonal communication in no way shape or form regardless of what happens, its interesting to me that any government can mandate what can and cannot be said in an official document pertaining to the freedoms of its citizens; of course I think its odd that you can't wear religious items in public buildings in France either O.o. I can't imagine that those two feminist groups speak for the vast majority when they lobby their agendas to the govt of France.
Interesting post, not sure what to think of it. On one hand, distinguishing between women on the basis of maritial status is a bit old-fashioned but I'm sure that it is also quite endearing (much like opening a door for someone of the opposite sex [a woman opened a door for me on a first date once, I was extremely flattered  ] or taking their coat) sometimes its just being polite, not alluding to the archaic idea that women are somehow inferior. It's a complex issue, and it's still being worked out, I would appreciate updates as they happen.
It would be very interesting to see how this affects peer relationships (if at all) in France. Aussi, Ca va bein! Et toi?
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I've always thought it was ridiculous and most "feminist movements" always miss their target. It's sad to see them fight against the "mademoiselle" and don't try to understand what is behind the "madame".
Inequality between genders are always misinterpreted or viewed in a way too simple way. It's depressing. But well if people think it's a victory, then so be it.
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How progressive of the French! English speakers must be rid of "Miss" and Spanish speakers must abandon "Señorita" right away, because acknowledging a woman as single is terrible!
I'm very liberal, but feminism, just like any rights group, sometimes goes after completely and utterly petty, inconsequential shit sometimes, and this is just such an example. Meanwhile in the United States, an entire political party, the "Republican Party", is launching an all out war on women's rights; where is the backlash?
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I laughed because that group calls themselves the Watchbitches.
Does that make me a mad person?
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This isn't a victory, it's rather sad. But I'll still use it : ]
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On February 28 2012 00:07 Bourneq wrote:
Finnaly! I hope the rest of the world will follow.
(West) Germany abolished the official use of its Fräulein (Fraeulein, Fraulein) diminutive title for unmarried women already back in the 1970s, on Februar 16, 1971 to be exact (completely banned in 1972).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fräulein
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As you say, it sounds like the only change will be a massive reprinting of forms. Talk about a pointless movement.
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I know a fuckton of girls actually hating madame since they are not married and correcting people calling them such. Activism should check if the majority supports their actions beforehand, they'd be surprised....
(and when i say girls, i mean 18-25 take madame as an insult, and for 25-35, it's a more or less subtle way to let people know they are free. Or proud of being single/not married/independant etc...)
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they're just banishing it from official forms and such, so I don't think it's such a big deal.
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" Les Chiennes de Garde " hahahahahahahahaha
Guard bitches
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There has to be something more productive than this they could be focusing on...
To consider this a victory...wow. Sometimes it's hard (in the U.S.) to figure out whether you should say Ms. or Mrs. but at the same time, it's really not a big deal. Of all the women's rights violations going on in the world (I know nothing about the situation for women in France) this seems like such small potatoes.
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On February 28 2012 00:28 Nouar wrote:
I know a fuckton of girls actually hating madame since they are not married and correcting people calling them such. Activism should check if the majority supports their actions beforehand, they'd be surprised....
(and when i say girls, i mean 18-25 take madame as an insult, and for 25-35, it's a more or less subtle way to let people know they are free. Or proud of being single/not married/independant etc...)
Exactly how my friends see this. They don't mind mademoiselle at all. They're actually happy to be called that.
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This is a big deal because it is the prime minister acknowledging women's rights. I think it's very important to get rid of structures oppressing women. And yes, I do believe that it is oppressing to change a woman's status depending on if they have a (male) partner or not while that doesn't happen with men.
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On February 28 2012 00:32 JieXian wrote:
" Les Chiennes de Garde " hahahahahahahahaha
Guard bitches
Yep, a feminist association. But "Chiennes" means "Female dogs", in french (even it's sometimes used as biteches aswell). The message is "If you piss womens off, we bite you"
There is another one with a weird name "Ni pute, ni soumise", "Neither whore, neither submitive".
Both are a bit extremist in my opinion, but i guess they help a bit the womens conditions in France, and it's good.
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I think that official forms and documents is hardly the stuff of culture. I'm for it, such often unnoticed things can definitely have a psychological impact.
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EPT
