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[WC3]The pact is sealed - undead guide by Manit0u

Forum Index > General Games
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Manit0u
Profile Blog Joined August 2004
Poland17707 Posts
Last Edited: 2007-01-20 05:22:46
September 09 2005 08:55 GMT
#1

* B A S I C * I N F O *

HEROES:

1. DEATH KNIGHT

This is the most common and basic hero choice for undead. By picking him as your 1st, 2nd or even 3rd hero you just can't go wrong, with a bit of skill and experience he becomes a real nightmare for all of your oponents.

Strengths:

- very fast
- great for harassing
- very versatile and resilient with Deathpact
- superb skills for both damage dealing and support


Weaknesses:

- none (yes it's true, this hero has just everything a superb hero needs)

Note: It is a very good idea to get death pact instead of aura level 2 when your dk hits level 4. It will help him survive (it's better to lose 1 unit than this hero).

2. LICH

This is the most common choice for the second hero in most matchups, except the UvU matches where he's taken as the first hero choice. Great support hero with lots of damage potential.

Strengths:

- attacks at range
- good allaround support
- very strong offensive aoe spell
- ability to recover mana very fast

Weaknesses:

- low hitpoints
- very powerful but rarely used ultimate
- strange movement pattern (this can be annoying sometimes)

3. DREADLORD

Another most common choice for second or even first hero. Very good at supporting/disabling.

Strengths:

- aoe damage
- superb ultimate
- very good disabler (sleep, infernal)
- good support for melee units (vampiric aura)

Weaknesses:

- rather slow
- medicore hitpoints
- needs a lot of mana at low levels

4. CRYPTLORD

Usually taken as third hero. Sometimes as first when going mass fiends. Rather good at soaking up damage and his aoe stun is very nice.

Strengths:

- very tough
- aoe damage + stun
- a lot of hitpoints
- makes additional meatshields (carrion beetles)

Weaknesses:

- low mana
- large (hard to micro sometimes)

UNITS:

1. Ghouls

S:

- fast
- cheap
- can heal fast after battle with cannibalize
- deal damage very fast with upgrade

W:

- very low hitpoints

2. Fiends

S:

- can burrow
- huge damage
- counter air
- nice hitpoints

W:

- slow
- expensive
- hard to micro due to large collision size

3. Gargoyles

S:

- fast
- HUGE a-a damage
- can heal/wear off spells very fast

W:

- unarmored
- low hitpoints

4. Abominations

S:

- nice damage
- can heal fast after battle with cannibalize
- additional dot with upgrade
- lots of hitpoints

W:

- slow
- large
- expensive

5. Destroyers:

S:

- fast
- lots of armour
- immune to magic
- very good damage
- lots of hitpoints

W:

- expensive
- heavy tech

* B U I L D * O R D E R S *

Basic

Crypt
Altar
Ziggurat
Shop
Ziggurat

This is the most basic buildorder for Undead, you should make it when facing random player (unless you really want to go mass fiends no matter what race your oponent plays). It's very versatile and allows for a lot of flexibility, it can also be altered quite easily.

1.a. Fast Hero

Altar
Ziggurat
Crypt
Shop
Ziggurat

This is the build you should use if you want to get your hero out a bit faster (if you suspect harass from orcish blademaster etc. or you want to harass yourself - good vs fast expanding humans).

1.b. Fast Fiends

Graveyard
Crypt
Altar
Ziggurat
Shop
Ziggurat

This is the build you should use when going straight out fiends.
It is best done with only 2 ghouls gathering wood in the beginning (you produce 1 ghoul and then start pumping out fiends) but you MUST add third ghoul to wood later on (I usually go for a bit slower first fiend and add 3rd ghoul right away).

2. Dual crypt ghoul rush*

2x Crypt
Ziggurat
Altar
Ziggurat
Shop
Ziggurat

Note: This is a very hardcore strat that rarely will work vs a decent player. Best hero for first choice here is Dreadlord with sleep/aura, or Dark Ranger with Dark Arrow, with this strat you have to own fast or get owned yourself (you don't tech to t2, just rush and pump up more ghouls)

3. Advanced

Now some more advanced things to add to your build orders - what to do later on.
You must always remember that Undead is very tech-reliant race and you can't neglect it. There are some common problems when teching:
1. Your enemy knows that you need tech to win so he will most likely try to harass you to delay it as much as he can
2. You can't produce acolytes while teching so you should be very vigilant at such times (never leave your base without TP during tech)
3. If you went for fiends first then your economy is suffering pretty much and your tech will be most likely a bit delayed

Usually you want to tech:
1. With ghouls first - after 4-5 ghouls, when you leave your main for the first time
2. With fiends first - after 4th fiend

You must also remember that getting to t3 is crucial for you in 98% cases so you should save up some gold/wood during tech to t2 so you can start your t3 right after t2 is done.
If you want to go necro/wagon then make 2 temples and 1 slaughterhouse right after you reach t2, then proceed with t3 tech if eco allows you to.

3.a. MU dependant build orders

This is when/what kind of buildings you should get with some more advanced strats/switches:
vs UD - there are basically 2 ways of playing this matchup and each one requires different tech/units:
1. DK/fiends -> destroyers - with this strat you should go for fast fiend build, when you hit t2 you should get lich and 2 slaughterhouses with immediate tech to t3 (you can delay lich). During tech try to mass statues and when you hit t3 start your destroyer form upgrade as soon as possible and add DL or CL.
2. Lich/ghouls -> gargs - this is the most common way to play this matchup, you want to tech to t2 while harassing enemy with lich + ghouls, when t2 is on it's way you should add up a graveyard, second crypt and another ziggurat. When t2 is done make sacrificial pit (shades help a lot), start pumping out gargs and upgrading their attack, you can add 1 slaughterhouse and tech to t3 if your eco is fine (you won a battle causing some damage to the enemy).

* V A R I O U S * M A T C H U P S *

1. Undead vs Undead

This is very micro/macro/timing/experience dependant matchup. Basically you want to go mass ghoul -> mass garg with lich as first hero and dk as second hero, better players won't add dk as they want their lich to level up as fast as possible (lich level 5 is crucial here).
There are other strats used for this mu but I think this one works best so far.
Some important things to remember:
- you should harass as much as you can, with lich/ghouls first, when lich is level 3 and you can afford it you could buy invis pot and staff of teleport and go harass enemy acolytes
- scrolls are very important, try not to engage into garg vs garg or garg vs fiend battle without scroll of protection and scroll of healing
- if you're facing fiends with your gargs don't panic, you can still own them, take some ghouls and when you see enemy just nova + focus fire with gargs on one fiend at a time while ghouls cause some chaos among their ranks

Note: Some people say that Dreadlord is better than Lich first here. Personally I don't think so, avoiding surround is easy, waking up from sleep too and lich deals a lot more damage and can recover mana fast.

2. Undead vs Orc

People may say that this is going to be the easiest matchup for you. It won't.
What orc has that pwns you so hard?
1. Blademaster - the bane of acolytes
2. Shadow Hunter - general disruption
3. Tauren Chieftain - one tough mother f****r with really nasty stun/aoe dmg
4. Raiders - ensnare is imba
5. Batriders - nasty, very nasty

What should you do?
Basicaly you want to get destros as soon as possible, but you want some fiends too to protect them from bats, this is quite hard to achieve because of the costs so you'll have to go for compromise:
- earlier destros but later fiends
- later destros but earlier fiends
This depends on what your oponent is currently using. If he goes raiders then ghoul/destro will be fine, if he's going vyws (or air in general) then fiend/destro. If you're going ghoul/destro it might be a good idea to switch later into fiends or abos.
It is also a good idea to add Panda as your third hero. It will help you survive the outrageously powerfull orcish mass air.

Things that might help:
- try to kill a couple of orc burrows (they go down really fast with destros)
- skelly rods
- scrolls

3. Undead vs Night Elf

This will be the hardest matchup for you in most cases because of a couple of things:
- nelf units >>> your units
- heroes usually used by nelf seem to be specially designed to kill undead (warden/panda combo is a nightmare)

Things you should do:
- usually ghoul/garg but mass fiends -> abos work sometimes
- get TONS of scrolls of healing (they can kill your army in 10 seconds if you haven't got them)
- harass a lot (try to get some wisps early and constantly harass him with gargs if you went for them)
- keep scouting (nelves usually get a lot of expansions, try to kill them)
- expand (never a bad idea in this mu)
- nuke his heroes, force tp or do whatever you can if the fight isn't going to be on your terms, just back off or try to push him back
- if he's going for mass dryads then abo/wagon or necro/wagon will be a good option for you (disease upgrade is a must), also try adding 1 or 2 wyrms in case the bears appear (they also help kill his heroes)

4. Undead vs Human

This is the most balanced matchup for you. Here it all goes down to micro in most cases. You should usually go ghoul/destro -> abo/destro or garg/destro (depends on his unit choice), also necro/wagon with solo dk is really nice versus human players. Three heroes is a must I think since he will be using 3 in most cases. Early harassment on his fast expansion (which he will most likely try to get) can really help you.
You should avoid going fast fiends because footies with defend will be a pain in the ass for you (unless you feel confident with your fiend micro).
If the enemy has towered himself heavily and is not harassing you/fighting you openly then you should make a shade immediately to see what is he hiding from you (mass gryphon or mass tanks or the combination of this two is a pain).
If you see gryphons then go gargs/destros, if you see tanks then add up some wagons and ghouls/abos/necros.

Time is precious. Waste it wisely.
requiem
Profile Blog Joined May 2004
United States268 Posts
September 09 2005 09:01 GMT
#2
disagree with your comment about DK ultimate. dk will rarely have so much mana to cast ultimate and enough coils to heal/kill, and if given a choice, ~3 level 3 coils >> ult imo
...
Manit0u
Profile Blog Joined August 2004
Poland17707 Posts
September 09 2005 09:26 GMT
#3
Well, coil is the best spell around what everyone knows but it won't help you if you haven't got much to coil. And raise dead has won me a couple of games.
Time is precious. Waste it wisely.
Rs-FaKe
Profile Joined June 2004
United States134 Posts
September 09 2005 10:32 GMT
#4
I was thinking the same thing. Raise dead has never won me a game, while high lvl coil has probably won me too many games to remember.
Liquid`Jinro
Profile Blog Joined September 2002
Sweden33719 Posts
Last Edited: 2005-09-09 10:36:52
September 09 2005 10:36 GMT
#5
Wow that was fast, thanks a lot

Just one question, when you say Abos counter priests, why? Is it their heal or inner fire they counter (at first I figured the disease cloud would cause priests to waste all their mana - like medics when your marines get plagued - but you can just turn that off so I dont know :D).

Or is it that they just do too much damage for priests to have any effect healing wise?
Moderatortell the guy that interplanatar interaction is pivotal to terrans variety of optionitudals in the pre-midgame preperatories as well as the protosstinal deterriggation of elite zergling strikes - Stimey n | Formerly FrozenArbiter
NeoIllusions
Profile Blog Joined December 2002
United States37500 Posts
September 09 2005 10:39 GMT
#6
I don't think aboms really counter priests. Disease cloud won't run priests out of mana thanks to Hu's walking mana fountain, aka Archmage.
ModeratorFor the Glory that is TeamLiquid (-9 | 155) | Discord: NeoIllusions#1984
haduken
Profile Blog Joined April 2003
Australia8267 Posts
September 09 2005 10:41 GMT
#7
can you go in to more details on how to play against NE summon heroes? like DR and BM first.
Rillanon.au
Anti
Profile Joined January 2004
United States1113 Posts
September 09 2005 11:17 GMT
#8
Interesting little read good work. But for Ud v Or who ever said dead have it easy? lol its almost the COMPLETE opposite from all the whining I hear from deads.

To emphasize on the destro vs burrows thing, well it really really hurts an orc if you manage to get into their base when they arent home and just rip up those buildings. Whats best is to not morph all the destros at once so you can absorb the mana from the statue forms. Do it fast and relatively close to their base since the mana you get drains pretty fast. As long as you can go in and do it before orc reaches tier 3 where they can buy that armor upgrade your almost sure to do tons of damage. Also dont be afraid to TP once he TP's in since it's pretty obvious you come out the winner in the exchange.

Bats... hmm well what a lot of ud do is actually get their air armor to 3 and well then bats really do basically nothing in their kamakazi type attack which is a set amount. If you see only one bat dont freak out though, it effectively takes two to take one destro out.

The blade master imo isnt so much what you should worry about, I'd much more be wary of a farseer. If you do want protection from the BM make sure you get a frost tower close to your mine and since as dead you almost always want to have a shop out buy a dust from it as well.

If you did go up against a farseer be carefull of that killer chain/wave combo, its always nice to have one or two healing scrolls to keep units alive. Since they do cost a fair bit, 250 I think, a lot of newer people think its way too expensive, but really keeping 7 ghouls alive at 120 a pop for only 250 makes much more sense.

Think thats all I can think of for now sooo
http://www.clan-rhrn.(?) | sliggy yours are ok too, but grots are sick, hes like the hovZ of RWAs. -HovZ
Anti
Profile Joined January 2004
United States1113 Posts
September 09 2005 11:20 GMT
#9
fyi yes DK is practically the perfect hero and almost a necessity as the back bone of any dead army.
http://www.clan-rhrn.(?) | sliggy yours are ok too, but grots are sick, hes like the hovZ of RWAs. -HovZ
Syst[eM]
Profile Joined August 2005
335 Posts
September 09 2005 11:47 GMT
#10
4. Raiders - ensnare is imba
This coming from the race with AUTOCAST ensnare.
inkblot
Profile Joined December 2004
United States1250 Posts
September 09 2005 12:10 GMT
#11
If you're talking about Web, it only affects air units and is necessary for undead to be able to fight air without building an entire air army.
oPtioNaLk
Profile Joined September 2004
Korea (South)564 Posts
September 10 2005 02:00 GMT
#12
On September 09 2005 20:47 Syst[eM] wrote:
Show nested quote +
4. Raiders - ensnare is imba
This coming from the race with AUTOCAST ensnare.


Manual cast > Auto cast in most cases anyway. Players will generally have faster reaction time than the computer AI will from autocasting.
Manit0u
Profile Blog Joined August 2004
Poland17707 Posts
September 10 2005 02:30 GMT
#13
On September 10 2005 11:00 oPtioNaLk wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 09 2005 20:47 Syst[eM] wrote:
4. Raiders - ensnare is imba
This coming from the race with AUTOCAST ensnare.


Manual cast > Auto cast in most cases anyway. Players will generally have faster reaction time than the computer AI will from autocasting.


Yes, and in addition raiders ensnare works also on ground units and lasts way too long imo. Additional thing is dreaded orc combo ensnare/stomp/hex which usually ends with dead enemy hero.

FA: disease really hurts human, mana regen AM provides isn't enough (unless he's got his aura at lvl 3), his priests heal like mad every second or two and run out of mana. I've checked it out and it works nicely.
Time is precious. Waste it wisely.
Manit0u
Profile Blog Joined August 2004
Poland17707 Posts
Last Edited: 2005-09-10 02:46:28
September 10 2005 02:39 GMT
#14
On September 09 2005 20:17 Anti wrote:
Interesting little read good work. But for Ud v Or who ever said dead have it easy? lol its almost the COMPLETE opposite from all the whining I hear from deads.


I hear lots of orc whining on destros imba ^_^ dunno why though, it's t3 unit and they really have means to counter it, you need hella good micro to keep destros alive vs good oponent.

hadouken: countering summons with ud is real pain since the only dispell they have is destros 'devour magic', unfortunately nelfs got a lot of things that kill destros easily (archers, dryads, hippos) :/
Personally I must say I like it when NE goes summoner as his first hero, sure he adds some meatshields for him but doesn't have anything that would pwn your whole army in an instant. The worst case scenario with nelf summoners is FL + dual aow archer rush, it's almost impossible to stop with ud and extremely hard with other races.

Note: vs casters always use destros, not only they're completly immune to their skills/attacks but also they can devour all the nasty spells (slow/hex/polly/faerie/bloodlust/roar/rejuvenation/inner) and they deal ~250dmg to summons if I remember well.
Especially devouring hex from orc is nice and pisses him off ^_^

Oh, and I forgot to add who's replays you should watch to learn best moves:

1. Lucifer - he is ud god imo ^_^ probably the best player in the world right now
2. FoV
3. MadFrog

These are 3 best ud's around (though I think I forgot about someone here).
Time is precious. Waste it wisely.
SunShine
Profile Joined February 2004
Netherlands787 Posts
September 10 2005 04:59 GMT
#15
Gostop/Susiria/Winner(when in shape)/Abver/Happy/Philbot(when in lame mode)
VanishingVision
Profile Joined August 2004
Netherlands31 Posts
September 10 2005 06:43 GMT
#16
Sweet!
brite
Profile Joined January 2005
United Kingdom253 Posts
September 10 2005 08:09 GMT
#17
best uds around are fov/susiria/lucifer/gostop
winner isn't that good. madfrog was good once but that time is past sadly.
generally speaking there is no european except perhaps 4k.fury that can keep up with the korean uds. philbot suxx. winner is only good if he gets really lucky.
abver hasn't won anything as far as i know (no tourneys or vs good players)
i have no idea who happy is though(is he american??)
Prawned
Profile Joined August 2004
United Kingdom794 Posts
September 10 2005 08:31 GMT
#18
Great guide Any chance you could make one for the other races? *cough* Night Elf *cough*
Manit0u
Profile Blog Joined August 2004
Poland17707 Posts
September 10 2005 10:36 GMT
#19
On September 10 2005 17:31 Prawned wrote:
Great guide Any chance you could make one for the other races? *cough* Night Elf *cough*


Thanks, and sadly my answer must be "no" :/
Well, I could make some basic statistics etc. but I really don't feel this good with other races. The strangest thing I've experienced was when I was trying to learn NE, I made some fastnick not to get my shitty stats even worse. When I've had like 15-10 stats with NE only on this nick I thought it's good time to start improving my stats on my first acc but I got 2-7 there :/
For human guide for example you could ask SoleSteeler since he's very good with this race, has got a lot of experience behind etc.
Besides you don't really need much guides for NE, less skilled players you can easily kill with mass hunts or FL dual aow archer rush (this one requires some micro though) and later you can always switch to bear/dryad and just abuse the staff of preserv (I hate this item).
Time is precious. Waste it wisely.
Syst[eM]
Profile Joined August 2005
335 Posts
September 10 2005 10:43 GMT
#20
While it is true that low level NE generally beats low level other races, at higher levels NE has no advantage.
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