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* B A S I C * I N F O *
HEROES:
1. DEATH KNIGHT
This is the most common and basic hero choice for undead. By picking him as your 1st, 2nd or even 3rd hero you just can't go wrong, with a bit of skill and experience he becomes a real nightmare for all of your oponents.
Strengths:
- very fast - great for harassing - very versatile and resilient with Deathpact - superb skills for both damage dealing and support
Weaknesses:
- none (yes it's true, this hero has just everything a superb hero needs)
Note: It is a very good idea to get death pact instead of aura level 2 when your dk hits level 4. It will help him survive (it's better to lose 1 unit than this hero).
2. LICH
This is the most common choice for the second hero in most matchups, except the UvU matches where he's taken as the first hero choice. Great support hero with lots of damage potential.
Strengths:
- attacks at range - good allaround support - very strong offensive aoe spell - ability to recover mana very fast
Weaknesses:
- low hitpoints - very powerful but rarely used ultimate - strange movement pattern (this can be annoying sometimes)
3. DREADLORD
Another most common choice for second or even first hero. Very good at supporting/disabling.
Strengths:
- aoe damage - superb ultimate - very good disabler (sleep, infernal) - good support for melee units (vampiric aura)
Weaknesses:
- rather slow - medicore hitpoints - needs a lot of mana at low levels
4. CRYPTLORD
Usually taken as third hero. Sometimes as first when going mass fiends. Rather good at soaking up damage and his aoe stun is very nice.
Strengths:
- very tough - aoe damage + stun - a lot of hitpoints - makes additional meatshields (carrion beetles)
Weaknesses:
- low mana - large (hard to micro sometimes)
UNITS:
1. Ghouls
S:
- fast - cheap - can heal fast after battle with cannibalize - deal damage very fast with upgrade
W:
- very low hitpoints
2. Fiends
S:
- can burrow - huge damage - counter air - nice hitpoints
W:
- slow - expensive - hard to micro due to large collision size
3. Gargoyles
S:
- fast - HUGE a-a damage - can heal/wear off spells very fast
W:
- unarmored - low hitpoints
4. Abominations
S:
- nice damage - can heal fast after battle with cannibalize - additional dot with upgrade - lots of hitpoints
W:
- slow - large - expensive
5. Destroyers:
S:
- fast - lots of armour - immune to magic - very good damage - lots of hitpoints
W:
- expensive - heavy tech
* B U I L D * O R D E R S *
Basic
Crypt Altar Ziggurat Shop Ziggurat
This is the most basic buildorder for Undead, you should make it when facing random player (unless you really want to go mass fiends no matter what race your oponent plays). It's very versatile and allows for a lot of flexibility, it can also be altered quite easily.
1.a. Fast Hero
Altar Ziggurat Crypt Shop Ziggurat
This is the build you should use if you want to get your hero out a bit faster (if you suspect harass from orcish blademaster etc. or you want to harass yourself - good vs fast expanding humans).
1.b. Fast Fiends
Graveyard Crypt Altar Ziggurat Shop Ziggurat
This is the build you should use when going straight out fiends. It is best done with only 2 ghouls gathering wood in the beginning (you produce 1 ghoul and then start pumping out fiends) but you MUST add third ghoul to wood later on (I usually go for a bit slower first fiend and add 3rd ghoul right away).
2. Dual crypt ghoul rush*
2x Crypt Ziggurat Altar Ziggurat Shop Ziggurat
Note: This is a very hardcore strat that rarely will work vs a decent player. Best hero for first choice here is Dreadlord with sleep/aura, or Dark Ranger with Dark Arrow, with this strat you have to own fast or get owned yourself (you don't tech to t2, just rush and pump up more ghouls)
3. Advanced
Now some more advanced things to add to your build orders - what to do later on. You must always remember that Undead is very tech-reliant race and you can't neglect it. There are some common problems when teching: 1. Your enemy knows that you need tech to win so he will most likely try to harass you to delay it as much as he can 2. You can't produce acolytes while teching so you should be very vigilant at such times (never leave your base without TP during tech) 3. If you went for fiends first then your economy is suffering pretty much and your tech will be most likely a bit delayed
Usually you want to tech: 1. With ghouls first - after 4-5 ghouls, when you leave your main for the first time 2. With fiends first - after 4th fiend
You must also remember that getting to t3 is crucial for you in 98% cases so you should save up some gold/wood during tech to t2 so you can start your t3 right after t2 is done. If you want to go necro/wagon then make 2 temples and 1 slaughterhouse right after you reach t2, then proceed with t3 tech if eco allows you to.
3.a. MU dependant build orders
This is when/what kind of buildings you should get with some more advanced strats/switches: vs UD - there are basically 2 ways of playing this matchup and each one requires different tech/units: 1. DK/fiends -> destroyers - with this strat you should go for fast fiend build, when you hit t2 you should get lich and 2 slaughterhouses with immediate tech to t3 (you can delay lich). During tech try to mass statues and when you hit t3 start your destroyer form upgrade as soon as possible and add DL or CL. 2. Lich/ghouls -> gargs - this is the most common way to play this matchup, you want to tech to t2 while harassing enemy with lich + ghouls, when t2 is on it's way you should add up a graveyard, second crypt and another ziggurat. When t2 is done make sacrificial pit (shades help a lot), start pumping out gargs and upgrading their attack, you can add 1 slaughterhouse and tech to t3 if your eco is fine (you won a battle causing some damage to the enemy).
* V A R I O U S * M A T C H U P S *
1. Undead vs Undead
This is very micro/macro/timing/experience dependant matchup. Basically you want to go mass ghoul -> mass garg with lich as first hero and dk as second hero, better players won't add dk as they want their lich to level up as fast as possible (lich level 5 is crucial here). There are other strats used for this mu but I think this one works best so far. Some important things to remember: - you should harass as much as you can, with lich/ghouls first, when lich is level 3 and you can afford it you could buy invis pot and staff of teleport and go harass enemy acolytes - scrolls are very important, try not to engage into garg vs garg or garg vs fiend battle without scroll of protection and scroll of healing - if you're facing fiends with your gargs don't panic, you can still own them, take some ghouls and when you see enemy just nova + focus fire with gargs on one fiend at a time while ghouls cause some chaos among their ranks
Note: Some people say that Dreadlord is better than Lich first here. Personally I don't think so, avoiding surround is easy, waking up from sleep too and lich deals a lot more damage and can recover mana fast.
2. Undead vs Orc
People may say that this is going to be the easiest matchup for you. It won't. What orc has that pwns you so hard? 1. Blademaster - the bane of acolytes 2. Shadow Hunter - general disruption 3. Tauren Chieftain - one tough mother f****r with really nasty stun/aoe dmg 4. Raiders - ensnare is imba 5. Batriders - nasty, very nasty
What should you do? Basicaly you want to get destros as soon as possible, but you want some fiends too to protect them from bats, this is quite hard to achieve because of the costs so you'll have to go for compromise: - earlier destros but later fiends - later destros but earlier fiends This depends on what your oponent is currently using. If he goes raiders then ghoul/destro will be fine, if he's going vyws (or air in general) then fiend/destro. If you're going ghoul/destro it might be a good idea to switch later into fiends or abos. It is also a good idea to add Panda as your third hero. It will help you survive the outrageously powerfull orcish mass air.
Things that might help: - try to kill a couple of orc burrows (they go down really fast with destros) - skelly rods - scrolls
3. Undead vs Night Elf
This will be the hardest matchup for you in most cases because of a couple of things: - nelf units >>> your units - heroes usually used by nelf seem to be specially designed to kill undead (warden/panda combo is a nightmare)
Things you should do: - usually ghoul/garg but mass fiends -> abos work sometimes - get TONS of scrolls of healing (they can kill your army in 10 seconds if you haven't got them) - harass a lot (try to get some wisps early and constantly harass him with gargs if you went for them) - keep scouting (nelves usually get a lot of expansions, try to kill them) - expand (never a bad idea in this mu) - nuke his heroes, force tp or do whatever you can if the fight isn't going to be on your terms, just back off or try to push him back - if he's going for mass dryads then abo/wagon or necro/wagon will be a good option for you (disease upgrade is a must), also try adding 1 or 2 wyrms in case the bears appear (they also help kill his heroes)
4. Undead vs Human
This is the most balanced matchup for you. Here it all goes down to micro in most cases. You should usually go ghoul/destro -> abo/destro or garg/destro (depends on his unit choice), also necro/wagon with solo dk is really nice versus human players. Three heroes is a must I think since he will be using 3 in most cases. Early harassment on his fast expansion (which he will most likely try to get) can really help you. You should avoid going fast fiends because footies with defend will be a pain in the ass for you (unless you feel confident with your fiend micro). If the enemy has towered himself heavily and is not harassing you/fighting you openly then you should make a shade immediately to see what is he hiding from you (mass gryphon or mass tanks or the combination of this two is a pain). If you see gryphons then go gargs/destros, if you see tanks then add up some wagons and ghouls/abos/necros.
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disagree with your comment about DK ultimate. dk will rarely have so much mana to cast ultimate and enough coils to heal/kill, and if given a choice, ~3 level 3 coils >> ult imo
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Well, coil is the best spell around what everyone knows but it won't help you if you haven't got much to coil. And raise dead has won me a couple of games.
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I was thinking the same thing. Raise dead has never won me a game, while high lvl coil has probably won me too many games to remember.
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Sweden33719 Posts
Wow that was fast, thanks a lot
Just one question, when you say Abos counter priests, why? Is it their heal or inner fire they counter (at first I figured the disease cloud would cause priests to waste all their mana - like medics when your marines get plagued - but you can just turn that off so I dont know :D).
Or is it that they just do too much damage for priests to have any effect healing wise?
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United States37500 Posts
I don't think aboms really counter priests. Disease cloud won't run priests out of mana thanks to Hu's walking mana fountain, aka Archmage.
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can you go in to more details on how to play against NE summon heroes? like DR and BM first.
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Interesting little read good work. But for Ud v Or who ever said dead have it easy? lol its almost the COMPLETE opposite from all the whining I hear from deads.
To emphasize on the destro vs burrows thing, well it really really hurts an orc if you manage to get into their base when they arent home and just rip up those buildings. Whats best is to not morph all the destros at once so you can absorb the mana from the statue forms. Do it fast and relatively close to their base since the mana you get drains pretty fast. As long as you can go in and do it before orc reaches tier 3 where they can buy that armor upgrade your almost sure to do tons of damage. Also dont be afraid to TP once he TP's in since it's pretty obvious you come out the winner in the exchange.
Bats... hmm well what a lot of ud do is actually get their air armor to 3 and well then bats really do basically nothing in their kamakazi type attack which is a set amount. If you see only one bat dont freak out though, it effectively takes two to take one destro out.
The blade master imo isnt so much what you should worry about, I'd much more be wary of a farseer. If you do want protection from the BM make sure you get a frost tower close to your mine and since as dead you almost always want to have a shop out buy a dust from it as well.
If you did go up against a farseer be carefull of that killer chain/wave combo, its always nice to have one or two healing scrolls to keep units alive. Since they do cost a fair bit, 250 I think, a lot of newer people think its way too expensive, but really keeping 7 ghouls alive at 120 a pop for only 250 makes much more sense.
Think thats all I can think of for now sooo
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fyi yes DK is practically the perfect hero and almost a necessity as the back bone of any dead army.
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4. Raiders - ensnare is imba This coming from the race with AUTOCAST ensnare.
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If you're talking about Web, it only affects air units and is necessary for undead to be able to fight air without building an entire air army.
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On September 09 2005 20:47 Syst[eM] wrote: This coming from the race with AUTOCAST ensnare.
Manual cast > Auto cast in most cases anyway. Players will generally have faster reaction time than the computer AI will from autocasting.
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On September 10 2005 11:00 oPtioNaLk wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2005 20:47 Syst[eM] wrote:4. Raiders - ensnare is imba This coming from the race with AUTOCAST ensnare. Manual cast > Auto cast in most cases anyway. Players will generally have faster reaction time than the computer AI will from autocasting.
Yes, and in addition raiders ensnare works also on ground units and lasts way too long imo. Additional thing is dreaded orc combo ensnare/stomp/hex which usually ends with dead enemy hero.
FA: disease really hurts human, mana regen AM provides isn't enough (unless he's got his aura at lvl 3), his priests heal like mad every second or two and run out of mana. I've checked it out and it works nicely.
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On September 09 2005 20:17 Anti wrote: Interesting little read good work. But for Ud v Or who ever said dead have it easy? lol its almost the COMPLETE opposite from all the whining I hear from deads.
I hear lots of orc whining on destros imba ^_^ dunno why though, it's t3 unit and they really have means to counter it, you need hella good micro to keep destros alive vs good oponent.
hadouken: countering summons with ud is real pain since the only dispell they have is destros 'devour magic', unfortunately nelfs got a lot of things that kill destros easily (archers, dryads, hippos) :/ Personally I must say I like it when NE goes summoner as his first hero, sure he adds some meatshields for him but doesn't have anything that would pwn your whole army in an instant. The worst case scenario with nelf summoners is FL + dual aow archer rush, it's almost impossible to stop with ud and extremely hard with other races.
Note: vs casters always use destros, not only they're completly immune to their skills/attacks but also they can devour all the nasty spells (slow/hex/polly/faerie/bloodlust/roar/rejuvenation/inner) and they deal ~250dmg to summons if I remember well. Especially devouring hex from orc is nice and pisses him off ^_^
Oh, and I forgot to add who's replays you should watch to learn best moves:
1. Lucifer - he is ud god imo ^_^ probably the best player in the world right now 2. FoV 3. MadFrog
These are 3 best ud's around (though I think I forgot about someone here).
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Gostop/Susiria/Winner(when in shape)/Abver/Happy/Philbot(when in lame mode)
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Sweet!
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best uds around are fov/susiria/lucifer/gostop winner isn't that good. madfrog was good once but that time is past sadly. generally speaking there is no european except perhaps 4k.fury that can keep up with the korean uds. philbot suxx. winner is only good if he gets really lucky. abver hasn't won anything as far as i know (no tourneys or vs good players) i have no idea who happy is though(is he american??)
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Great guide Any chance you could make one for the other races? *cough* Night Elf *cough*
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On September 10 2005 17:31 Prawned wrote:Great guide Any chance you could make one for the other races? *cough* Night Elf *cough*
Thanks, and sadly my answer must be "no" :/ Well, I could make some basic statistics etc. but I really don't feel this good with other races. The strangest thing I've experienced was when I was trying to learn NE, I made some fastnick not to get my shitty stats even worse. When I've had like 15-10 stats with NE only on this nick I thought it's good time to start improving my stats on my first acc but I got 2-7 there :/ For human guide for example you could ask SoleSteeler since he's very good with this race, has got a lot of experience behind etc. Besides you don't really need much guides for NE, less skilled players you can easily kill with mass hunts or FL dual aow archer rush (this one requires some micro though) and later you can always switch to bear/dryad and just abuse the staff of preserv (I hate this item).
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While it is true that low level NE generally beats low level other races, at higher levels NE has no advantage.
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That's too bad It's true about the massing archers. My very first 10 games I won purely on double AoW archer rush. Then I started playing people who had more than 1 arm.
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United States37500 Posts
On September 10 2005 19:43 Syst[eM] wrote: While it is true that low level NE generally beats low level other races, at higher levels NE has no advantage.
That is wrong on so many levels... NE is the strongest solo race by far because of the diverse strategies they can pull off.
I have one name to say to you: Spirit_Moon.
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On September 10 2005 20:41 NeoIllusions wrote:Show nested quote +On September 10 2005 19:43 Syst[eM] wrote: While it is true that low level NE generally beats low level other races, at higher levels NE has no advantage. That is wrong on so many levels... NE is the strongest solo race by far because of the diverse strategies they can pull off. I have one name to say to you: Spirit_Moon.
i have one name to you too: Boxer. omg, terran is imba
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My fav UD player is Susiria... because he speaks awesome english and seems to enjoy the whole european/north american community
and he's a fun player to watch lucifer is 2nd
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United States37500 Posts
Susi's fragmented English is pretty cool, like during WC3L obs chat. ;D He sounds like a good guy.
Playwise, I like to watch FoV, Lucifer, GoStop and Susiria out of the Korean UDs.
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On September 10 2005 20:41 NeoIllusions wrote:Show nested quote +On September 10 2005 19:43 Syst[eM] wrote: While it is true that low level NE generally beats low level other races, at higher levels NE has no advantage. That is wrong on so many levels... NE is the strongest solo race by far because of the diverse strategies they can pull off. I have one name to say to you: Spirit_Moon.
Spirit_Moon is good but I don't like him much personally, Zeus's and APM70's aka Deadman's style is much better imo.
And I think you're wrong. It's not the diversity of strategies that makes night elves so easy to play and hard to beat. In my opinion it's because they have better units than other races. Let's take a look at a couple of them ok?
1. Dryad: tier 2 unit, pretty cheap, 530 hp, ranged, slows down enemy, immune to magic, fast, has autocast dispel. Please show me other races units that are half this good :/ 2. Druid of the Talon: autocast faerie fire (reduces armor + gives you maphack), cyclone, can turn into powerful a-a unit 3. Druid of the Bear: roar, rejuvenation (this spell pwnzors), when in bear form they're the strongest melee unit around 4. Huntress: very low tech, over 500 hitpoints, ranged attack (range is very low but it's still 1 free hit vs melee), attack hits multiple targets
Also some of their units/heroes can hide at night, their buildings walk and hit hard, they have really cheap and fast building main (for exps), and they haven't got 1 crappy hero.
This could be the reason that they own so much, no?
Edit: And I forgot that like no other race they can make extent use of tavern heroes since they work well with their usual unit combos. Oh, and did I mention moonwels?
Edit2: I think I didn't mention mg's and staff they get in shop at t2 too...
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fEAthEr's UD Guide
First thing you do..
vs any race
Go and change your nova hotkey to c...this is the most important....
now...build dk.lich.dl ALWAYS IN THAT ORDER! go ghouls/fiend, then tech upto statue, then go dest to win...
c+click tab c+click tab c+click on hero...
thats all... nothing more... 90% win ratio...
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Why change nova to "c"? I have it under "z" ^_^
Edit: Why you had to edit your post when I was writing mine? :D
Edit2: Btw. You know what'll happen to your ghouls/fiends if:
vs orc: he'll have tc with stomp as second hero vs nelf: warden/panda = gg your units, bear/dryad = gg your units vs hum: mk >>>>>> ghouls/fiends, footies > ghouls and >>>>> fiends, rifles > ghouls and > fiends, rif/casters = gg for you
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cuz im cool
edit:
On September 10 2005 21:30 Manit0u wrote: Why change nova to "c"? I have it under "z" ^_^
Edit: Why you had to edit your post when I was writing mine? :D
Edit2: Btw. You know what'll happen to your ghouls/fiends if:
vs orc: he'll have tc with stomp as second hero vs nelf: warden/panda = gg your units, bear/dryad = gg your units vs hum: mk >>>>>> ghouls/fiends, footies > ghouls and >>>>> fiends, rifles > ghouls and > fiends, rif/casters = gg for you
vs orc.. thats why you dont have much for melee..and he loses a healer as a second hero so gogo vs fs/troops
vs nelf.. warden/panda = aa build... wtf i have no magic harmable air.. and its the most common... you want fiends vs dryads... dest vs bears.. he wants dryads vs dest.. bears vs fiends.. very very classic matchup..
vs huma... spam cast like you dont know ... just keep on eating the slow ;o..
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meh..i might as well jump in the other argument too...
nelf suck cuz of lacking of teching...cuz their towers sux and you cant tower worht crap
n2m all their heroes (save dh) suck the big one imo...thats whyy they resort to tavern so much :O
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Manit0u, if Night Elf are so strong you go play with them and show me 70-30 record on solo. I would like very much for you to prove how the night elf are strongest by beating public players.
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On September 10 2005 22:08 Syst[eM] wrote: Manit0u, if Night Elf are so strong you go play with them and show me 70-30 record on solo. I would like very much for you to prove how the night elf are strongest by beating public players.
70-30? This will take me some time since I don't ladder much anymore but ok ^_^ If I get it I'll post here a screenshot
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Please tell us the account you plan to use so we can track your progress.
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just do AT with me and we will get 70-30 np :O
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I can always AT with WaweR or Bogoos ^_^ or even better, tell bogoos to make me such account But it's not the point, I probably won't ever make it because I don't like playing NE, I simply don't "feel" this race at all.
btw. today I got my fastest win with UD (~7min 30sec vs level 35 human on echo) *cheers*
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wawer+bogoos ftw! loved their 2on2
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On September 11 2005 02:05 SunShine wrote:wawer+bogoos ftw! loved their 2on2
To be honest with you... They started owning after copying Wizard/Tak3r strat and upgrading it slightly when none known it good and none known how to stop it ^_^
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On September 10 2005 17:09 brite wrote: best uds around are fov/susiria/lucifer/gostop winner isn't that good. madfrog was good once but that time is past sadly. generally speaking there is no european except perhaps 4k.fury that can keep up with the korean uds. philbot suxx. winner is only good if he gets really lucky. abver hasn't won anything as far as i know (no tourneys or vs good players) i have no idea who happy is though(is he american??) Happy is a Russian player previously playing for es4x, now playing for mouz. If you don't know that I really wonder if you know what you are talking about.
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winning a UD vs HU match is nothing to boost about.
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On September 11 2005 04:36 haduken wrote: winning a UD vs HU match is nothing to boost about.
Ghaha your right here Ud so imba vs us humans ;(
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On September 10 2005 19:43 Syst[eM] wrote: While it is true that low level NE generally beats low level other races, at higher levels NE has no advantage. And that is why NEs are dominating everything, right?
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Not everything Orc has been owning it up just as much ^^
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It seems like Orc is owning up just because grubby=cheat.
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Suggestion : What about make guide about one MU b/c this is too basic to be useful even for beginners.You just talked about things you can explicitly see in the replays.
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copying strategies won't do you any good, just practice practice practice... get good at tactical micro, after you play enough games you'll know what works best for YOU vs certain strats...
like i said in the other thread, right now for me whenevr i random UD vs NE, i go like dual aura ghouls with sleep on DL, sleep heroes while doing flanks on his army, own him as hard as i can in the beginning, don't put too much pressure, expand, 2 slaughter aboms with dual aura are funn then i add gargs or fiends if absolutely necessary
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On September 10 2005 21:27 Manit0u wrote:Show nested quote +On September 10 2005 20:41 NeoIllusions wrote:On September 10 2005 19:43 Syst[eM] wrote: While it is true that low level NE generally beats low level other races, at higher levels NE has no advantage. That is wrong on so many levels... NE is the strongest solo race by far because of the diverse strategies they can pull off. I have one name to say to you: Spirit_Moon. Spirit_Moon is good but I don't like him much personally, Zeus's and APM70's aka Deadman's style is much better imo. And I think you're wrong. It's not the diversity of strategies that makes night elves so easy to play and hard to beat. In my opinion it's because they have better units than other races. Let's take a look at a couple of them ok? 1. Dryad: tier 2 unit, pretty cheap, 530 hp, ranged, slows down enemy, immune to magic, fast, has autocast dispel. Please show me other races units that are half this good :/ 2. Druid of the Talon: autocast faerie fire (reduces armor + gives you maphack), cyclone, can turn into powerful a-a unit 3. Druid of the Bear: roar, rejuvenation (this spell pwnzors), when in bear form they're the strongest melee unit around 4. Huntress: very low tech, over 500 hitpoints, ranged attack (range is very low but it's still 1 free hit vs melee), attack hits multiple targets Also some of their units/heroes can hide at night, their buildings walk and hit hard, they have really cheap and fast building main (for exps), and they haven't got 1 crappy hero. This could be the reason that they own so much, no? Edit: And I forgot that like no other race they can make extent use of tavern heroes since they work well with their usual unit combos. Oh, and did I mention moonwels? Edit2: I think I didn't mention mg's and staff they get in shop at t2 too...
I kinda have to agree with NeoIllusions...
Diversity is what makes NE pretty frustrating and strong, because they can use so many different heroes and strategies that if you're any good, and not just someone who watches replays all day and copies, then you have a serious advantage on your hands because the other races don't have nearly the amount of viable options, so in a sense the Night Elf can do less scouting and preparing and still be victorious.
It's not that their units are naturally better either. Dryads have some nice skills and bears are tough but, the units aren't the problem. It's the fact that Night Elf can safely tech that easy while a race like Human, if they try to tech that quickly to tier 3 on certain maps, will not have the power to survive without mass towers. Bears aren't imbalanced. Tier 3 is SUPPOSED to beat tier 2. It's the little details common players don't pick up on that's the problem.
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Sweden33719 Posts
Haha, it's funny to read replay comments on wc3 replay sites "Human towers are imba" "Undead winning vs human? 'Wow' UD>>HU" ;( Is there any real imbalance/how bad is it (in this matchup and in general)?
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I don't play much anymore, but I feel that U>H if H doesn't cheese O>U N>O especially on TR NvU is just a war of atrition and really depends on the players (only list b/c I have heard many arguments for both ways) O>H (probably is better now, but this is probably my strongest matchup, so I may be biased. I still think it is pretty damn hard for a H to beat a O of similar skill)
Keep in mind these are pretty close and come into play the most at high lvl. In terms of race, I don't think much needs to be changed. Maybe some minor tweaks like base defense upgrade for Hu, ensare for O, I don't really have any others b/c I haven't been playing a whole lot, but these stick out.
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The only really clear imbalances are Orc > Undead, Human is slightly weaker, and Night Elf is slightly stronger (thanks to diversity and Staff).
But none of those make much of a difference if you're an average player, except in some cases Orc vs Undead. Unless you're pretty close to equal players, there's not much racial imbalance to worry about.
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Well, there still is some imbalance (much less then previously though but it's still present), imo raiders ensnare is pretty imba and elven staff (which should be changed to work like hu's staff, with same price and being also t3 item). Personally I think that the imbalance lies in certain strategies, like orc's blademaster abuse vs nelf and ud early, nelf rushing with FL + archers vs everything etc.
Anyway, I'd like 1 thing to be changed the most. Undead casters, so they would become actually playable, every other race uses casters 90% of the time while undead (which is a race relying highly on magic in background) use it maybe 1% of time (during whole time I play undead I used casters only once). This is one of the things that makes undead the hardest race to play imo, it limits the possibilities greatly since 5 of he undead units aren't cost-effective enough to be used :/ Orc's rarest unit is spiritwalker which is still used though. And nelf's mounted archers but they don't really need them.
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Yeah, it blows UD casters suck. The problem is that I honestly think they were just fucked from the beginning. I don't see how they can change them to an acceptable medium. Also, at this point UD strategy is all about speed and nuking, and even if they fixed necros/banshees I would feel weird using them.
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Watch some just.star/3wd.star replays he uses them allot not that he is that great of a player but still he uses them in a way they help him win the match
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Rs-Fake: well, imo they could give their casters some dd spells ^_^ but this would be too much of the abuse I think. But some kind of dispel/disabler would be VERY nice (I mean something better than curse).
SunShine: Thanks, just dl'ing some reps
And as to the towers I think that Bjarke is the master in this matter ^_^ He is probably the only person in the world that fast expands while towering enemy and is successful at it. Btw. wasn't it Bjarke who invented this ultra fast tower rush vs orc and ne on echo? (eg. 3 starting peasants -> militia -> go to enemy base, 1 peasant to mine, 1 peasant builds mill)
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Y your right that's his masterpiece now I think he's also the one who brought back staff abuse as a human some time ago Atleast I started doing it afther I saw Bjarke do it in reps.
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haha, Bjarke is pretty hilarious. Back in the day w/ heavy BM/naga abuse he would build farms surrounding the tavern against NE.
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SunShine: I've just tried to watch 2 star's reps... In 1st he got raped in about 8 minutes by Insomnia and in second he had to unsummon one zig on the start because his dk couldn't get out T_T the rest of this rep was unwatchable though since obs abused mapping a lot and tod doesn't have obs ping comment turned off in wtv :/
btw. I think we're getting a bit off topic here ^_^ I'll create another one so we can whine there at will XD
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Ghaha well his games in the WC3L were pretty sweet. He won his first match 2-0 with mass casters+pitlord
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United States37500 Posts
On September 11 2005 19:24 FrozenArbiter wrote: Haha, it's funny to read replay comments on wc3 replay sites "Human towers are imba" "Undead winning vs human? 'Wow' UD>>HU" ;( Is there any real imbalance/how bad is it (in this matchup and in general)?
"WarCraft 3 is the only game in which all players think the race that they play is the weakest."
ffs... -_-;;
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United States37500 Posts
On September 11 2005 17:35 Orlandu wrote:Show nested quote +On September 10 2005 21:27 Manit0u wrote:On September 10 2005 20:41 NeoIllusions wrote:On September 10 2005 19:43 Syst[eM] wrote: While it is true that low level NE generally beats low level other races, at higher levels NE has no advantage. That is wrong on so many levels... NE is the strongest solo race by far because of the diverse strategies they can pull off. I have one name to say to you: Spirit_Moon. Spirit_Moon is good but I don't like him much personally, Zeus's and APM70's aka Deadman's style is much better imo. And I think you're wrong. It's not the diversity of strategies that makes night elves so easy to play and hard to beat. In my opinion it's because they have better units than other races. Let's take a look at a couple of them ok? 1. Dryad: tier 2 unit, pretty cheap, 530 hp, ranged, slows down enemy, immune to magic, fast, has autocast dispel. Please show me other races units that are half this good :/ 2. Druid of the Talon: autocast faerie fire (reduces armor + gives you maphack), cyclone, can turn into powerful a-a unit 3. Druid of the Bear: roar, rejuvenation (this spell pwnzors), when in bear form they're the strongest melee unit around 4. Huntress: very low tech, over 500 hitpoints, ranged attack (range is very low but it's still 1 free hit vs melee), attack hits multiple targets Also some of their units/heroes can hide at night, their buildings walk and hit hard, they have really cheap and fast building main (for exps), and they haven't got 1 crappy hero. This could be the reason that they own so much, no? Edit: And I forgot that like no other race they can make extent use of tavern heroes since they work well with their usual unit combos. Oh, and did I mention moonwels? Edit2: I think I didn't mention mg's and staff they get in shop at t2 too... I kinda have to agree with NeoIllusions... Diversity is what makes NE pretty frustrating and strong, because they can use so many different heroes and strategies that if you're any good, and not just someone who watches replays all day and copies, then you have a serious advantage on your hands because the other races don't have nearly the amount of viable options, so in a sense the Night Elf can do less scouting and preparing and still be victorious. It's not that their units are naturally better either. Dryads have some nice skills and bears are tough but, the units aren't the problem. It's the fact that Night Elf can safely tech that easy while a race like Human, if they try to tech that quickly to tier 3 on certain maps, will not have the power to survive without mass towers. Bears aren't imbalanced. Tier 3 is SUPPOSED to beat tier 2. It's the little details common players don't pick up on that's the problem.
I <3 Orlandu. He pretty much elaborated on what makes NE such a strong race.
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Sweden33719 Posts
On September 12 2005 04:04 NeoIllusions wrote:Show nested quote +On September 11 2005 19:24 FrozenArbiter wrote: Haha, it's funny to read replay comments on wc3 replay sites "Human towers are imba" "Undead winning vs human? 'Wow' UD>>HU" ;( Is there any real imbalance/how bad is it (in this matchup and in general)? "WarCraft 3 is the only game in which all players think the race that they play is the weakest." ffs... -_-;; Where's that quote from ?
And if it was meant as sarcasm, yes, I know people whine quite a bit in BW too :D (though a lot less since the game is much older).
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United States37500 Posts
Not sure who coined the quote, but it's on a lot of the WC forums.
And it's not really meant as sarcasm anymore. Go on most forums and there are people always complaining about their race and how weak it is, how all the other races have this "imba" strat against theirs. It's bs.
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I think it was originally posted on replayers.com but I may be wrong
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