Korea has the best players in the world. Fully agree. Korea has more skilled terrans then zergs and protosses. Also agree. Even though maps become more and more anti-terran, every patch nerfs terrans they still continue to dominate korean scene, not so much as it was - but still as best race. IPL 4 qualifiers show it clearly.
Let's take non-korea. I can name you a thon of protosses and zergs which became better very fast in last few months but can't name any terran. In fact terrans of non-korea really struggle a lot. Let's take a look for example at last week tournaments: http://goodgame.ru/news.php?ocd=view&id=12612#comments 17 tournaments. Terrans won 1 and made 4 people in finals. That's all.
Honestly in trying to become better i try to analyze many replays from non-korea terrans, but i find nothing new, which can help me to win. So there is my question. What are we doing SO WRONG, that we struggle a lot even against non-korean protosses and zergs, while our korean race-mates manage to dominate against strongest players of other races?
Things I tend to notice, is that the koreans use a lot more micro, I see much less impressive marine splitting from foreigners than I do from the koreans. Besides that, the koreans also seem to be more threatening with their units than foreigners. Koreans will keep poking units around the opponents bases, not necessarily going in to risk losing units, but enough to keep the opponent scared, and on the occasional moment they notice a weakness, go for some damage. Foreigners like to be less active and more defensive with their units.
Second, I see a LOT more build variety from korean terrans. They all seem to know like 15 solid allins, and can do 2-4 decent macro strategies at any given time. (This moreso in TvT and TvZ than for TvP.) Foreign players seem to have fewer builds they like to use often, and fewer allins or timing pushes.
The third thing, which I'm less sure about, is korean terrans seem to expand far more aggressively than the foreigners. The koreans seem much more comfortable taking quicker 4th+ bases than what I tend to notice from foreigners. This kind of goes in hand with being more active with units they have, as it gains them more map control, and lets them be safer taking even more bases.
hmm, when i see korean terrans ( for TvP ) play, i see way more different 1-1-1 openings with solid transitions into a late game bio play. for example gumiho. foreign terrans tend do play gasless fe nearly every game. but thats just how i see it.....
On February 21 2012 18:07 MyLastSerenade wrote: hmm, when i see korean terrans ( for TvP ) play, i see way more different 1-1-1 openings with solid transitions into a late game bio play. for example gumiho. foreign terrans tend do play gasless fe nearly every game. but thats just how i see it.....
thats just gumiho fucking with puzzles head thats not standard play and theres nothing wrong with 1 rax gasless expo still very likely the best opening in TvP
^^This is the first game of three in which MKP just dominates TL opponents with incredible macro/aggression early on. His multi-tasking allows him to expand and make a huge amount of units while building workers and remaining threatening with his units, and he just rolls through his first three opponents with early pushes. Although he hits at awkward timings, even if the opponents had fully expected the attack and been ready for it, I still think that he would have come out ahead in all of the engagements. Was incredible to see to me,
I think Korean Terran players are still dominating GSL is because those players have been playing GSL since last year. Their experiences in the player booth gives them undisputed advantage. In most offline tournaments, Terran are not winning many tournaments because there is no environment disadvantage.
As for how are these Korean Terran players playing besides experience in offline tournaments. Most non mirror Terran match ups have been some timing attacks or all ins that don't require much late game. Take EGPuma for example, he 1-2 base timing attack vs protoss almost every single game. Yes, he mix in with some 1 Rax FEs, but majorities of his victories are because of heavy harassment into 1-2 base timing attacks. As MC would put it, "You want to win tournaments? Timing Attack! Timing Attack!"
Major difference between Foreign Terrans and Korean Terrans is that Koreans focus micro micro micro/ timing attack while foreign Terrans tries macro macro / long games. And if Patch 1.4.3 goes through, it will just force all Terran players go 1 or 2 base all ins because late game is just totally headhurt (yeah, no chance in late game).
On February 21 2012 18:18 iaguz wrote: Wait is that Eugin Oparyshev Strelok or some other Strelok?
He's the real deal.
Like others have said I think it can be pinpointed to two things: aggression and micro. Foreigners just have a more passive playstyle, and this applies to protoss and zergs players as well. Terran just happens to be less effective that way, you need to find ways to be aggressive to succeed as terran.
Mentality, Koreans play is "in de face", if its not working they still try it until it works. There is no point in time when you are idle, you move, search for weakness if you find it you strike. Build orders aside, its all about fingers. Non korean terrans still play semi passive game build around build order counters, while it of course happens in KR too (counters) they are mitigating the effect of BO counters or amplyfing them by micro/macro/map awarness. Its also good to know that Koreans generally tend to havily meta-game each other in Korean leagues.
When i watch Terran play (all of them) i can almost always say, at this point in time he could also be dropping an expo or expanding, but most of them still dont have mechanics to do so, Terrans will get stronger when they figure out their mental timings, SC2 is build around certain triggers, there are many small timing windows that soon every high level terran will start to notice, including non-Koreans, however Koreans will figure out them first, because they have a collective metagame, when someone figures out something all of them catch up, because they have to. Happened in BW happens now. I think Terran still have a large window of improvement, Zerg not so much (Leenock plays quite optimal zvt for example).
Easy answer: Multitasking, you have to be able to properly split marines and macro, start grinding low tech core play. Terran micro is very risk/reward scenario like, 1 mistake can be an equivalent of losing the game (FF/bane). Try to play risky and dont do mistakes, seems hard but thats how it is.
On February 21 2012 18:16 VPFaith wrote: I think Korean Terran players are still dominating GSL is because those players have been playing GSL since last year. Their experiences in the player booth gives them undisputed advantage. In most offline tournaments, Terran are not winning many tournaments because there is no environment disadvantage.
As for how are these Korean Terran players playing besides experience in offline tournaments. Most non mirror Terran match ups have been some timing attacks or all ins that don't require much late game. Take EGPuma for example, he 1-2 base timing attack vs protoss almost every single game. Yes, he mix in with some 1 Rax FEs, but majorities of his victories are because of heavy harassment into 1-2 base timing attacks. As MC would put it, "You want to win tournaments? Timing Attack! Timing Attack!"
Major difference between Foreign Terrans and Korean Terrans is that Koreans focus micro micro micro/ timing attack while foreign Terrans tries macro macro / long games. And if Patch 1.4.3 goes through, it will just force all Terran players go 1 or 2 base all ins because late game is just totally headhurt (yeah, no chance in late game).
I want to state how wrong you are about korean terrans doing only all ins. They do timing attacks, but that is how terran has always been. In all the zvt's I play they play macro based into the late game, drop a lot, always know where the zerg army is so they don't just get their army rolled over because they didn't know where it was. I rarely see terrans all inning tvz now of days in GSL or in personal playing them on the kr ladder.
In tvz anyway a lot of korean terrans go 3 base and expand more aggressively then foreigner terrans do while being aggressive. I can't comment on tvp as I don't play either of those races.
Why they seem to be so much superior to foreign terrans is the fact that their micro is amazing, they expand more aggressively and drop a lot. They will do a multi pronged drop while attacking you with their main force. Their macro is spot on to, you can kill a whole army and not be able to kill them because they already have another big army at their natural. Idk its crazy seeing what a korean terran can do with his army not only cost effectively, but their macro and multi tasking as well.
Personally I just think the top korean terrans are incredibly good, better than their korean zerg and protoss contemporaries. I don't think it is quite so clear cut now days in terms of korean terrans > every foreigner however. The way the game is atm even top korean terrans can lose to above average foreign protosses at tournaments (and it has been happening).
I know what you mean though. There hasn't been a non korean terran who has had that meteoric rise to greatness ( ) like Nani, HuK, Stephano have been able to experience. I'm looking forward to the ASUS ROG Winter 2012 tournament before giving up on non korean terrans completely though. Its been a long time since we've seen beasts from the east like yourself, Happy, BRAT_OK and Kas at a tournament so it will be an interesting watch. Shame about the groups of death for Kas and Happy though...
Beat 2x Protoss to advance or beat 1 Protoss + Puma/Stephano...
If the non korean terrans get smashed at that tourny then I'd be inclined to say that the problem is that terran is being balanced based on the performance of the top koreans (i.e. nerfed every patch) and only those select few top koreans (who are the best SC2 players, nevermind terran players) can make it work. So my answer to what you guys are doing wrong would be "not much". To try and quantify it a bit I would say that the korean terrans are better at executing agressive, micro intensive strategies whilst being on top of their macro. With foreign terrans it seems to be that they do really good micro and float resources (a bit like Jinro when he does harass heavy play) or they have good macro but sometimes lack the micro (Kas when he's just hurling thousands of units at his oponent xD)
Outside of the terrans at the ASUS tourny I'm not sure what other foreign hopes we have. ThorzaIN, DeMusliM, MajOr/nOnge?
On February 21 2012 18:16 VPFaith wrote: Take EGPuma for example, he 1-2 base timing attack vs protoss almost every single game. Yes, he mix in with some 1 Rax FEs, but majorities of his victories are because of heavy harassment into 1-2 base timing attacks. As MC would put it, "You want to win tournaments? Timing Attack! Timing Attack!"
But such play is very unsafe. I mean if zerg/protoss knows you will do that - you are done. Do you propose just to rely on mixing strategies that he doesn't know how exactly you will all-in him? because 2 base attack is same all-in as 1 base in high level.
Terran is very strong at the highest level for two main reasons. 1. Terran benefits the most from extreme multitasking. If you have a spare 400apm, you can always marine split, always drop and get away, always stutter step well, you can get 15 kills with a banshee and get away with 5hp, you always can repair hurt units and always salvage buildings just in time. Almost every unit in the Terran army becomes exponentially stronger the better you can control it. Therefor, players that have very high APM and multitasking achieve a level of cost efficiency that is very difficult to match by lower level players. The other prong of my theory is actually very simple. Terran is typically the safest from cheese, and are very hard to attack directly if they are turtling. A higher average cost efficiency produced by excellent control combined with the ability to play very safe if turtling could lead to the highest level Terrans having the most stability as well as becoming exponentially stronger as multitasking and unit control skill increases.
This is just my theory based on watching GSL, playing games on the NA ladder and casually training.
Solution: Examine ways to make the other races more "micro-able". While some micro is needed for Z/P at the moment, it is not nearly as beneficial as extreme micro is for T. Instead of playing with damage numbers, analyze the unit design. Make units attack twice as fast but do the same overall DPS. Allow more units to cancel their attack to move away while still doing damage similar to the marine. These types of changes are obviously targeted solely at the highest level. A-moved roaches will do the same overall DPS in bronze as they will Korea GM, however if they shot twice as quickly they would be a hell of a lot more microable, despite doing the same overall DPS. This would allow additional functionality from players that have the APM to micro their army while maintaining production while not effecting the lowest leagues in the slightest as overall damage output stays the same.
For being able to more safely attack Terran when in a lead situation, new siege units should be explored for HOTS.
On February 21 2012 18:07 Verator wrote: Things I tend to notice, is that the koreans use a lot more micro, I see much less impressive marine splitting from foreigners than I do from the koreans. Besides that, the koreans also seem to be more threatening with their units than foreigners. Koreans will keep poking units around the opponents bases, not necessarily going in to risk losing units, but enough to keep the opponent scared, and on the occasional moment they notice a weakness, go for some damage. Foreigners like to be less active and more defensive with their units.
Second, I see a LOT more build variety from korean terrans. They all seem to know like 15 solid allins, and can do 2-4 decent macro strategies at any given time. (This moreso in TvT and TvZ than for TvP.) Foreign players seem to have fewer builds they like to use often, and fewer allins or timing pushes.
The third thing, which I'm less sure about, is korean terrans seem to expand far more aggressively than the foreigners. The koreans seem much more comfortable taking quicker 4th+ bases than what I tend to notice from foreigners. This kind of goes in hand with being more active with units they have, as it gains them more map control, and lets them be safer taking even more bases.
A lot of good points here.
In addition it seems that the western players tend to be boxed in by an intellectual approach to the game. You will not completely benefit from practice if you simply confine yourself into what is an "intellectually assumed" possibility/ viability. Korean players are vanguards. They consider the intellectual aspect but do not limit themselves to it. They go out try something thats considered unviable and try to make it viable. Stop siting and think about something and try to push the envolope of whats possible and not possible. Best example: Alive. The guy went and looked at mech TvT and said this style is weak in the early parts and I need something to bolster an aggressive attack. Well he found out that raven auto turrets are good for that purpose!
A good questions to ask is as follows: How can I best resolve an issue in the game with the most efficiency without resorting to something tech tree orientedor game system oriented (e.g. Change the system /Balance !)?
Koreans also, as metioned, do not hesistate to go for the kill. This whole notion of the "elegant" macro game is something foreign players subscribe to - to the point that they have lost their instinct to go for the kill if the opportunity presents itself. This in turn makes them very predictable in matches. Also they loose that psychological effect on their opponent. Simply stated, a pure macro player isnt as uncomfortable to play in a tournament versus a player that is known to go for the kill if they see you made a mistake. Koreans, except for a few exceptions, have that edge over their non-korean counterparts. Too much "playing it safe" makes you dull.
Im an immigrant from the east so ive noticed this, not only in SC2 but in the cultural aspect of things too. Some people try to credit this to race. Its not. Its the difference in the cultures of the west vs the east.
On February 21 2012 18:16 VPFaith wrote: Take EGPuma for example, he 1-2 base timing attack vs protoss almost every single game. Yes, he mix in with some 1 Rax FEs, but majorities of his victories are because of heavy harassment into 1-2 base timing attacks. As MC would put it, "You want to win tournaments? Timing Attack! Timing Attack!"
But such play is very unsafe. I mean if zerg/protoss knows you will do that - you are done. Do you propose just to rely on mixing strategies that he doesn't know how exactly you will all-in him? because 2 base attack is same all-in as 1 base in high level.
When you are playing in offline tournament, your mind functions differently because of many factors. The audience, computer set up, and who you are facing up against and more... Any of these factors can result in a bad decision. Yes, the player doing the all-in will take a great risk, but knowing if the timing attack is concealed well is key. And know if timing is scouted, what then? what decision is next leads to the result of the game. This is where the Koreans shine because most of them practise to these kind of situations, discuss with coaches, and practise non-stop in similar situations. For example, MarinekingPrime, always win most base trade situations or dire situations when 1 slight mistake will cost the game. As for foreign Terran players, we just focus too much on improving macro mechanics and fail in situations when the prepared strategies did not go as planned.
Koreans on the other hand, they train in critical situations when game did not go as planned. Foreigners do not have such advantage.
Like say Proxy Thor Push on Calm before the Storm vs Protoss, if the proxy is found, what is next? Or when the first Thor died, then what? Things like these are rarely discussed in the foreign community because we never take the time to analyze how to save bad situations into a well executed one that has a follow up. It's hard!
EPT
) like Nani, HuK, Stephano have been able to experience. I'm looking forward to the ASUS ROG Winter 2012 tournament before giving up on non korean terrans completely though. Its been a long time since we've seen beasts from the east like yourself, Happy, BRAT_OK and Kas at a tournament so it will be an interesting watch. Shame about the groups of death for Kas and Happy though...
