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[G] One base Battlecruiser TvZ (Mini-Guide)

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DoctorFunk
Profile Joined September 2011
160 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-02-10 02:42:26
February 05 2012 23:21 GMT
#1
One base Battlecruiser TvZ
Hello all, this is DoctorFunk, mid masters random on NA. About a week ago, I saw a hilarious vod of Naama vs IdrA on Metalopolis where Naama executed a 1 base battlecruiser build against IdrA, and easily won. This got me thinking and questioning how viable it could be on certain maps. It's a straightforward, sloppy, fun build that can be used for close air TvZ. This is just a quick, simple guide for a quick and simple build. I've only tried it a few times, and haven't lost yet(to low-mid masters), probably due to them not knowing how the hell to react. I've seen hydras, corruptors, and generally everything that marine tank turns to goo.


The Idea
+ Show Spoiler +
The strength of this build comes in a few different forms.
The first is the repair ability. You can send your battlecruiser to harass, and simply pull it back to your base, repair it, and send it back. You never want to lose these battlecruisers, and you shouldn't.

The second strong point of this build is that the zerg players simply do not know how to react when they see the battlecruiser. Sometimes they will try muta, sometimes hydra, sometimes corrupter. I think the best choice is queen + spores.

The third strong point is that you will be building up a marine/tank army on top of the battlecruisers. The zerg player will often prioritize the battlecruisers and just get rolled by your marine/tank push.

Try to capitalize on these.



The build order
+ Show Spoiler +
This build order is not exactly precise, and can vary a little bit depending on what you do whether its a 1rax bunker pressure, etc

Constant scv production, constant supply depots. only cut when your first bc is out, scvs are just as valuable as marines because of repair.

10- Supply depot
12- Barracks
13-Refinery
15 Orbital
15 Marine
16 Supply depot
17 Marine
~17-18 Factory at ramp
18-19 reactor on rax
18-19 second refinery

At factory completion, swap with barracks reactor and reactor out hellions.
Also, add starport. Produce marines out of naked rax.

After 4 hellions out of the factory, swap the barracks onto the reactor.
At starport completion, build fusion core immediately then tech lab on starport.
At fusion core completion, start your first Battlecruiser(Yes!)
~Add another barracks as minerals permit, you could use an extra rax for marine production.
Also, add a tech lab to your factory and begin tank production.

From here on out, you will have constant(ish) tank, marine, battlecruiser production, any more information on build order is not necessary. If you don't have the gas for a tank due to your second bc, add in a hellion before building another tank.

You will make harass with your first bc, and make your push at around 11:30 with two battlecruisers, 2-3 tanks, a handful of marines, ~12-15 scvs and however many surviving hellions you have.(Preferably four)

You can refer to the replays for more specific timings. I didn't list exact supplies because I don't like that. Just make sure you don't supply block yourself. You need those one-basing mules, and don't want to delay production or supply drop. If you're supply blocked pretty bad, calling down supplies is not terrible, but that's a discussion for somewhere else.




Execution
+ Show Spoiler +
This is the fun part of the build. It can be executed in many ways.
When they see it

[image loading]

The Engagement
[image loading]



Since it begins as a standard reactor hellion opening, you want to keep your initial 4 hellions alive. Do not suicide them to kill drones. Simply poke in and out, and maintain map control, deny scouting, while denying creep spread.

Use your marines to deny overlord scouts. The less prepared they are for your initial BC, the more damage it will do. The more damage it will do, the stronger your push will be.

I only recommend this map for close air positions. With your first battlecruiser, you want to be an abusive terran. Fly to their base, kill queens, kill drones, and fly back for repairs, then repeat. Believe it or not, queens can actually kite bc's on creep, so be ready for this. NEVER lose a bc.

When your second bc pops, it's time to all-in.
Pull scvs, marines, tanks, bcs and hit the natural. Hard. Aim to have your siege mode complete as you arrive. Keep your bcs in front with scvs repairing. A lot of the time, you will enjoy a swift victory and a rage-quit from your opponent.



Reactions and scouting

+ Show Spoiler +
This is not a solid reactionary build. It is a one base all-in. I will only list what steps you need to take to stay alive from various things, but I will not cover everything, because it should be self explanatory(throw down a bunker, pull scvs to repair)
Your hellions run into roaches
If your hellions see roaches, immediately throw down 1-2 bunkers are your ramp and pull 6-8 scvs to repair. You should be fine, just don't let them bust your ramp or lings will stream in.
1 base baneling bust
You should have scouted that he went 14/14 and has not expanded. Again, bunkers are good, hellions are good, and repair is good. It's even better if your reactor is inside your base. If not, you'll probably lose your reactor and a depot, and he will lose the game. If he 1 base baneling busts, do not carry on with this build. Instead, i would keep reactoring out hellions(probably 6), expand, and carry on standard. Just don't mine out of that second refinery for a bit.


Conclusion
+ Show Spoiler +
This is a fun build. It can be pretty abusive, and shows that battlecruisers are actually pretty good and pretty hilarious. It's somewhat viable. I'm sure it can be easily countered, but I'm not going to talk about how, because then this build wouldn't be fun. Winning is fun. Having said that, I have yet to lose with it due to the generally confused zerg response and marine/tank/hellion/bc/scv all in. Replays follow.



Replays
+ Show Spoiler +
Here are a few replays. They are not the most crisp execution possible. I have to sort through my games to find the rest, and will add more as I try it more! Enjoy.
Masters:

[image loading]

[image loading]

[image loading]

[image loading]

[image loading]
This one is against a lower level, and more of just a demonstration of a poor reaction (died to the first BC)

This is just a more refined demo against AI. If you want more exact build orders, check here.

[image loading]

The grand finale: Naama vs idra

<object width="425" height="350"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/17fEy0q6yqc"></param><param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3ywZBxNFgqI" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="350"></embed></object>
<hr>


Wortie
Profile Joined September 2011
Netherlands212 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-02-05 23:57:36
February 05 2012 23:57 GMT
#2
I serously don't want this to be popular, please remove this thread. I just watched the vod and it seems like another good terran all-in. My only thoughts are: I have to learn to deal with this shit too???


Here's the vod btw:
weikor
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
Austria580 Posts
February 06 2012 00:17 GMT
#3
Looks fun, seems like idra had way too few units out on the map though.

Also feels heavily dependant on your opponent reacting wrong (muta vs 2/3rds anti muta units). Cutting drones earlier and getting high ling hydra count, or corruptor with mass lings (banelings?) is probably also pretty good
The_Templar
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
your Country52797 Posts
February 06 2012 00:19 GMT
#4
Good build ^^

If your roaches see hellions

oh, are we Zerg now?
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NoisyNinja
Profile Joined February 2011
United States991 Posts
February 06 2012 00:22 GMT
#5
On February 06 2012 08:57 Wortie wrote:
I serously don't want this to be popular, please remove this thread. I just watched the vod and it seems like another good terran all-in. My only thoughts are: I have to learn to deal with this shit too???


Here's the vod btw:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3ywZBxNFgqI


No reason to tell OP to shut down his thread because you dont like what is in it.
guN-viCe
Profile Joined March 2010
United States687 Posts
February 06 2012 00:23 GMT
#6
I saw this build done by another player(I forget who) months ago. It's cute for sure.
Never give up, never surrender!!! ~~ Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence -Sagan
DoctorFunk
Profile Joined September 2011
160 Posts
February 06 2012 00:31 GMT
#7
On February 06 2012 09:22 NoisyNinja wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 06 2012 08:57 Wortie wrote:
I serously don't want this to be popular, please remove this thread. I just watched the vod and it seems like another good terran all-in. My only thoughts are: I have to learn to deal with this shit too???


Here's the vod btw:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3ywZBxNFgqI


No reason to tell OP to shut down his thread because you dont like what is in it.



I think he was joking and not actually asking for me to remove the thread Thanks for the vod, I added it to the replays section.
TranceKuja
Profile Joined May 2011
United States154 Posts
February 06 2012 00:38 GMT
#8
I am surpised that Idra did not react better. He scouted fusion core while it was building.
Winning
fighter2_40
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
United States420 Posts
February 06 2012 01:09 GMT
#9
I dont think this is good at all. If they prepare for even a marine marauder all in or any type of standard ground all in, ur ground forces would be smashed and all you'd have left are the 2 bcs and scvs, which wont deal much dmg since he already has queens and spores.

Then zerg can take a third etc... ur just screwed.
DoctorFunk
Profile Joined September 2011
160 Posts
February 06 2012 01:18 GMT
#10
On February 06 2012 10:09 fighter2_40 wrote:
I dont think this is good at all. If they prepare for even a marine marauder all in or any type of standard ground all in, ur ground forces would be smashed and all you'd have left are the 2 bcs and scvs, which wont deal much dmg since he already has queens and spores.

Then zerg can take a third etc... ur just screwed.


The ideal response for a zerg is to crush the ground army with ling/bane and turtle with queen/spores for the bc's.(Ignore that, Zerg players) This has happened to me, but I still do enough damage with the bc's to stay in it long enough for another all-in to win. Also, after they see the first BC, they often make another bad decision: to try a ling/bane or roach/ling/bane bust on the front. I don't know why, but this happens roughly 70% of the time and makes their position much worse. I guess they assume that I don't have marine/tank at home?

Again, there's probably a hundred things zerg can do to handle this well. But for some reason, they don't. I'm not advocating this as a solid build. Interestingly enough, it DOES work at masters level, and could be good for a BoX if you roll close air. Personally, I have a lot of other builds I prefer for close air positions, but it's definitely fun to mix it up. especially with battlecruisers.
Host-
Profile Joined December 2010
New Zealand459 Posts
February 06 2012 01:20 GMT
#11
I played against a build similiar to this a few days ago. It's really wierd albeit quite powerful. The way I held it was mass ling whilst pumping queens. I several spores up because i suspected banshees
Fencar
Profile Blog Joined August 2011
United States2694 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-02-06 01:41:48
February 06 2012 01:29 GMT
#12
On February 06 2012 08:57 Wortie wrote:
I serously don't want this to be popular, please remove this thread. I just watched the vod and it seems like another good terran all-in. My only thoughts are: I have to learn to deal with this shit too???


Here's the vod btw:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3ywZBxNFgqI

I lol'd. He states the build, and how he thinks you can counter it. I think you can probably scout this with a sacrificial overlord, and beat it with ling/queen.
On February 06 2012 10:20 Host- wrote:
I played against a build similiar to this a few days ago. It's really wierd albeit quite powerful. The way I held it was mass ling whilst pumping queens. I several spores up because i suspected banshees

Oops, missed this post. At least I know I was right ^^
On February 06 2012 09:38 TranceKuja wrote:
I am surpised that Idra did not react better. He scouted fusion core while it was building.

He didn't expect the massive ground army; he had too many queens and not enough zerglings.
This is my signature. There are many like it, but this one is mine.
SidewinderSC2
Profile Joined November 2011
United States236 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-02-06 02:45:32
February 06 2012 02:44 GMT
#13
Man, this is awesome. This is the kind of stuff that makes me love this game.

With that said, I honestly feel like this would be better if you went Marine/Hellion/Marauder/BattleCruiser instead of getting tanks and cutting Hellion production. Requires less gas, better durability, a little better damage output against Roaches, Marauders can soak up baneling hits, etc. Naama was kinda sloppy with his Hellion control, too.. no reason to lose any, and they can help immensely in the final battle.

I'd love to see this build in a televised match! Wish I played Terran so I could give this build some burn.
NoisyNinja
Profile Joined February 2011
United States991 Posts
February 06 2012 02:47 GMT
#14
On February 06 2012 11:44 SidewinderSC2 wrote:
Man, this is awesome. This is the kind of stuff that makes me love this game.

With that said, I honestly feel like this would be better if you went Marine/Hellion/Marauder/BattleCruiser instead of getting tanks and cutting Hellion production. Requires less gas, better durability, a little better damage output against Roaches, Marauders can soak up baneling hits, etc. Naama was kinda sloppy with his Hellion control, too.. no reason to lose any, and they can help immensely in the final battle.

I'd love to see this build in a televised match! Wish I played Terran so I could give this build some burn.


Plus, if you are pumping tanks and battlecruisers, which is how I came to understand and interpret this post, you will not have enough gas to support both unless your macro is absolutely horrible, in which case you are screwed either way. I think a marine marauder ground army would be better because marines will live longer if properly micro'd and will not die to the friendly fire of the tanks because, well, there are not tanks. Marauders will tank the first few banes and the marines will clean up everything else while the battlecruisers are there just in case anything goes completely south.
DoctorFunk
Profile Joined September 2011
160 Posts
February 06 2012 02:52 GMT
#15
On February 06 2012 11:44 SidewinderSC2 wrote:
Man, this is awesome. This is the kind of stuff that makes me love this game.

With that said, I honestly feel like this would be better if you went Marine/Hellion/Marauder/BattleCruiser instead of getting tanks and cutting Hellion production. Requires less gas, better durability, a little better damage output against Roaches, Marauders can soak up baneling hits, etc. Naama was kinda sloppy with his Hellion control, too.. no reason to lose any, and they can help immensely in the final battle.

I'd love to see this build in a televised match! Wish I played Terran so I could give this build some burn.


Marauders are a good thought and could be worth trying. The lower gas cost could be good for you, because it's a stretch to produce both tanks and BC off of one base. The thing is, the tanks protect the marines from banelings, marauders not so much. It's also nice to be able to siege the natural, while prodding in and out with BC's and marines. I add a second rax anyways(just to produce marines), but maybe putting a tech lab on it for a few marauders could be alright. I never use marauders in tvz though, I much prefer the synergy between marine/tank.
SidewinderSC2
Profile Joined November 2011
United States236 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-02-06 02:59:24
February 06 2012 02:58 GMT
#16
I actually just play Protoss but watch a lot of TvZ, TvT.. not so much ZvZ though.

Just in my mind in terms of spending and overall flexibility, tanks seem like a poor choice for gas spending - if you wait for seige it seems like you get basically 1 good volley off when the strength of the push is in it's durability. I'd rather make my Marines tougher, kill Roaches more easily (and quicker if they decide to go for the 7 Roach pressure timing), and store up a few Hellions just to hopefully eliminate banelings and minimize damage on my Marines from Zerglings. Only downside is that Marauders can't be repaired and you won't have the time to produce a Medivac.

This is a crazy awesome build though. If I played Terran I'd use this a lot on the ladder :D
DoctorFunk
Profile Joined September 2011
160 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-02-06 03:14:26
February 06 2012 03:13 GMT
#17
I agree that in terms of balancing that one base economy, marauders, reactored marines, and some naked hellions seems a bit smoother. I'll try to run a few games with that variant tonight or tomorrow. If it works well, I'll add whatever build order fits well and a couple reps. I do like having the presence of tanks at a natural though. It just makes the engagement more comfortable, and often, cost effective. Good thoughts.
Angel_
Profile Blog Joined December 2011
United States1617 Posts
February 06 2012 04:15 GMT
#18
This is just a blind, no thought whatsoever suggestion, But if you got a second orbital, even if you just left it in your base to mule, how long would it delay your push, and how many extra hellions and marines could you produce? Would it be worth it?

And if you wanted turn this into a proper two base Marine/Hellion(Tank)/Battlecruiser 14ish minute 4 battlecruiser push...does anyone think that would sound feasible? Purely theorycrafting.
DoctorFunk
Profile Joined September 2011
160 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-02-06 04:33:45
February 06 2012 04:27 GMT
#19
On February 06 2012 13:15 Angel_ wrote:
This is just a blind, no thought whatsoever suggestion, But if you got a second orbital, even if you just left it in your base to mule, how long would it delay your push, and how many extra hellions and marines could you produce? Would it be worth it?

And if you wanted turn this into a proper two base Marine/Hellion(Tank)/Battlecruiser 14ish minute 4 battlecruiser push...does anyone think that would sound feasible? Purely theorycrafting.

Not too crazy actually. I tend to float a lot of minerals with this build, so an extra cc could be ok if you let your minerals get too high. The thing is, this build's goal does not take into account the late game, so it seems counter-intuitive to throw in a cc when you're executing a 1 base all-in. Also, battlecruisers +scvs can tank a LOT of damage. With mass repair, you will also burn a lot of minerals, so I would be careful expanding with this build.

If you were referring to something like a 1rax expo into BC/2base all in, I do not think it is viable. One of the strong points of this build is a surprise BC in close air positions. A 1rax expo into banshee is a viable opener on large maps because it provides map control, harassment, and is not as huge of an investment as bc's. The more you delay it, the more the zerg will be prepared.
Mobius_1
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United Kingdom2763 Posts
February 06 2012 04:51 GMT
#20
Well this seems like a fun build to throw in to mess with Zergs TotalBiscuit must approve.

I think the only way this can be improved is if every appearance of the word "Battlecruiser" is in big red bold underlined capital letters.

Yeah, I can see why this would be a great followup to reactor hellion opening with marines to deny ovie scouts. Surprise Battlecruisers are pretty damn difficult to stop with any of the standard Zerg compositions that can be teched up at that stage. (NP's could screw you over but it looks like it hits before that, and rushing for NP leaves basically no defense for 1-base-all-in-worth of marine tank)
Starleague Forever. RIP KT Violet~
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