One base Battlecruiser TvZ Hello all, this is DoctorFunk, mid masters random on NA. About a week ago, I saw a hilarious vod of Naama vs IdrA on Metalopolis where Naama executed a 1 base battlecruiser build against IdrA, and easily won. This got me thinking and questioning how viable it could be on certain maps. It's a straightforward, sloppy, fun build that can be used for close air TvZ. This is just a quick, simple guide for a quick and simple build. I've only tried it a few times, and haven't lost yet(to low-mid masters), probably due to them not knowing how the hell to react. I've seen hydras, corruptors, and generally everything that marine tank turns to goo.
The strength of this build comes in a few different forms. The first is the repair ability. You can send your battlecruiser to harass, and simply pull it back to your base, repair it, and send it back. You never want to lose these battlecruisers, and you shouldn't.
The second strong point of this build is that the zerg players simply do not know how to react when they see the battlecruiser. Sometimes they will try muta, sometimes hydra, sometimes corrupter. I think the best choice is queen + spores.
The third strong point is that you will be building up a marine/tank army on top of the battlecruisers. The zerg player will often prioritize the battlecruisers and just get rolled by your marine/tank push.
This build order is not exactly precise, and can vary a little bit depending on what you do whether its a 1rax bunker pressure, etc
Constant scv production, constant supply depots. only cut when your first bc is out, scvs are just as valuable as marines because of repair.
10- Supply depot 12- Barracks 13-Refinery 15 Orbital 15 Marine 16 Supply depot 17 Marine ~17-18 Factory at ramp 18-19 reactor on rax 18-19 second refinery
At factory completion, swap with barracks reactor and reactor out hellions. Also, add starport. Produce marines out of naked rax.
After 4 hellions out of the factory, swap the barracks onto the reactor. At starport completion, build fusion core immediately then tech lab on starport. At fusion core completion, start your first Battlecruiser(Yes!) ~Add another barracks as minerals permit, you could use an extra rax for marine production. Also, add a tech lab to your factory and begin tank production.
From here on out, you will have constant(ish) tank, marine, battlecruiser production, any more information on build order is not necessary. If you don't have the gas for a tank due to your second bc, add in a hellion before building another tank.
You will make harass with your first bc, and make your push at around 11:30 with two battlecruisers, 2-3 tanks, a handful of marines, ~12-15 scvs and however many surviving hellions you have.(Preferably four)
You can refer to the replays for more specific timings. I didn't list exact supplies because I don't like that. Just make sure you don't supply block yourself. You need those one-basing mules, and don't want to delay production or supply drop. If you're supply blocked pretty bad, calling down supplies is not terrible, but that's a discussion for somewhere else.
This is the fun part of the build. It can be executed in many ways. When they see it
The Engagement
Since it begins as a standard reactor hellion opening, you want to keep your initial 4 hellions alive. Do not suicide them to kill drones. Simply poke in and out, and maintain map control, deny scouting, while denying creep spread.
Use your marines to deny overlord scouts. The less prepared they are for your initial BC, the more damage it will do. The more damage it will do, the stronger your push will be.
I only recommend this map for close air positions. With your first battlecruiser, you want to be an abusive terran. Fly to their base, kill queens, kill drones, and fly back for repairs, then repeat. Believe it or not, queens can actually kite bc's on creep, so be ready for this. NEVER lose a bc.
When your second bc pops, it's time to all-in. Pull scvs, marines, tanks, bcs and hit the natural. Hard. Aim to have your siege mode complete as you arrive. Keep your bcs in front with scvs repairing. A lot of the time, you will enjoy a swift victory and a rage-quit from your opponent.
This is not a solid reactionary build. It is a one base all-in. I will only list what steps you need to take to stay alive from various things, but I will not cover everything, because it should be self explanatory(throw down a bunker, pull scvs to repair) Your hellions run into roaches If your hellions see roaches, immediately throw down 1-2 bunkers are your ramp and pull 6-8 scvs to repair. You should be fine, just don't let them bust your ramp or lings will stream in. 1 base baneling bust You should have scouted that he went 14/14 and has not expanded. Again, bunkers are good, hellions are good, and repair is good. It's even better if your reactor is inside your base. If not, you'll probably lose your reactor and a depot, and he will lose the game. If he 1 base baneling busts, do not carry on with this build. Instead, i would keep reactoring out hellions(probably 6), expand, and carry on standard. Just don't mine out of that second refinery for a bit.
This is a fun build. It can be pretty abusive, and shows that battlecruisers are actually pretty good and pretty hilarious. It's somewhat viable. I'm sure it can be easily countered, but I'm not going to talk about how, because then this build wouldn't be fun. Winning is fun. Having said that, I have yet to lose with it due to the generally confused zerg response and marine/tank/hellion/bc/scv all in. Replays follow.
Here are a few replays. They are not the most crisp execution possible. I have to sort through my games to find the rest, and will add more as I try it more! Enjoy. Masters:
This one is against a lower level, and more of just a demonstration of a poor reaction (died to the first BC)
This is just a more refined demo against AI. If you want more exact build orders, check here.
I serously don't want this to be popular, please remove this thread. I just watched the vod and it seems like another good terran all-in. My only thoughts are: I have to learn to deal with this shit too???
Looks fun, seems like idra had way too few units out on the map though.
Also feels heavily dependant on your opponent reacting wrong (muta vs 2/3rds anti muta units). Cutting drones earlier and getting high ling hydra count, or corruptor with mass lings (banelings?) is probably also pretty good
On February 06 2012 08:57 Wortie wrote: I serously don't want this to be popular, please remove this thread. I just watched the vod and it seems like another good terran all-in. My only thoughts are: I have to learn to deal with this shit too???
On February 06 2012 08:57 Wortie wrote: I serously don't want this to be popular, please remove this thread. I just watched the vod and it seems like another good terran all-in. My only thoughts are: I have to learn to deal with this shit too???
I dont think this is good at all. If they prepare for even a marine marauder all in or any type of standard ground all in, ur ground forces would be smashed and all you'd have left are the 2 bcs and scvs, which wont deal much dmg since he already has queens and spores.
Then zerg can take a third etc... ur just screwed.
On February 06 2012 10:09 fighter2_40 wrote: I dont think this is good at all. If they prepare for even a marine marauder all in or any type of standard ground all in, ur ground forces would be smashed and all you'd have left are the 2 bcs and scvs, which wont deal much dmg since he already has queens and spores.
Then zerg can take a third etc... ur just screwed.
The ideal response for a zerg is to crush the ground army with ling/bane and turtle with queen/spores for the bc's.(Ignore that, Zerg players) This has happened to me, but I still do enough damage with the bc's to stay in it long enough for another all-in to win. Also, after they see the first BC, they often make another bad decision: to try a ling/bane or roach/ling/bane bust on the front. I don't know why, but this happens roughly 70% of the time and makes their position much worse. I guess they assume that I don't have marine/tank at home?
Again, there's probably a hundred things zerg can do to handle this well. But for some reason, they don't. I'm not advocating this as a solid build. Interestingly enough, it DOES work at masters level, and could be good for a BoX if you roll close air. Personally, I have a lot of other builds I prefer for close air positions, but it's definitely fun to mix it up. especially with battlecruisers.
I played against a build similiar to this a few days ago. It's really wierd albeit quite powerful. The way I held it was mass ling whilst pumping queens. I several spores up because i suspected banshees
On February 06 2012 08:57 Wortie wrote: I serously don't want this to be popular, please remove this thread. I just watched the vod and it seems like another good terran all-in. My only thoughts are: I have to learn to deal with this shit too???
I lol'd. He states the build, and how he thinks you can counter it. I think you can probably scout this with a sacrificial overlord, and beat it with ling/queen.
On February 06 2012 10:20 Host- wrote: I played against a build similiar to this a few days ago. It's really wierd albeit quite powerful. The way I held it was mass ling whilst pumping queens. I several spores up because i suspected banshees
Oops, missed this post. At least I know I was right ^^
On February 06 2012 09:38 TranceKuja wrote: I am surpised that Idra did not react better. He scouted fusion core while it was building.
He didn't expect the massive ground army; he had too many queens and not enough zerglings.
Man, this is awesome. This is the kind of stuff that makes me love this game.
With that said, I honestly feel like this would be better if you went Marine/Hellion/Marauder/BattleCruiser instead of getting tanks and cutting Hellion production. Requires less gas, better durability, a little better damage output against Roaches, Marauders can soak up baneling hits, etc. Naama was kinda sloppy with his Hellion control, too.. no reason to lose any, and they can help immensely in the final battle.
I'd love to see this build in a televised match! Wish I played Terran so I could give this build some burn.
On February 06 2012 11:44 SidewinderSC2 wrote: Man, this is awesome. This is the kind of stuff that makes me love this game.
With that said, I honestly feel like this would be better if you went Marine/Hellion/Marauder/BattleCruiser instead of getting tanks and cutting Hellion production. Requires less gas, better durability, a little better damage output against Roaches, Marauders can soak up baneling hits, etc. Naama was kinda sloppy with his Hellion control, too.. no reason to lose any, and they can help immensely in the final battle.
I'd love to see this build in a televised match! Wish I played Terran so I could give this build some burn.
Plus, if you are pumping tanks and battlecruisers, which is how I came to understand and interpret this post, you will not have enough gas to support both unless your macro is absolutely horrible, in which case you are screwed either way. I think a marine marauder ground army would be better because marines will live longer if properly micro'd and will not die to the friendly fire of the tanks because, well, there are not tanks. Marauders will tank the first few banes and the marines will clean up everything else while the battlecruisers are there just in case anything goes completely south.
On February 06 2012 11:44 SidewinderSC2 wrote: Man, this is awesome. This is the kind of stuff that makes me love this game.
With that said, I honestly feel like this would be better if you went Marine/Hellion/Marauder/BattleCruiser instead of getting tanks and cutting Hellion production. Requires less gas, better durability, a little better damage output against Roaches, Marauders can soak up baneling hits, etc. Naama was kinda sloppy with his Hellion control, too.. no reason to lose any, and they can help immensely in the final battle.
I'd love to see this build in a televised match! Wish I played Terran so I could give this build some burn.
Marauders are a good thought and could be worth trying. The lower gas cost could be good for you, because it's a stretch to produce both tanks and BC off of one base. The thing is, the tanks protect the marines from banelings, marauders not so much. It's also nice to be able to siege the natural, while prodding in and out with BC's and marines. I add a second rax anyways(just to produce marines), but maybe putting a tech lab on it for a few marauders could be alright. I never use marauders in tvz though, I much prefer the synergy between marine/tank.
I actually just play Protoss but watch a lot of TvZ, TvT.. not so much ZvZ though.
Just in my mind in terms of spending and overall flexibility, tanks seem like a poor choice for gas spending - if you wait for seige it seems like you get basically 1 good volley off when the strength of the push is in it's durability. I'd rather make my Marines tougher, kill Roaches more easily (and quicker if they decide to go for the 7 Roach pressure timing), and store up a few Hellions just to hopefully eliminate banelings and minimize damage on my Marines from Zerglings. Only downside is that Marauders can't be repaired and you won't have the time to produce a Medivac.
This is a crazy awesome build though. If I played Terran I'd use this a lot on the ladder :D
I agree that in terms of balancing that one base economy, marauders, reactored marines, and some naked hellions seems a bit smoother. I'll try to run a few games with that variant tonight or tomorrow. If it works well, I'll add whatever build order fits well and a couple reps. I do like having the presence of tanks at a natural though. It just makes the engagement more comfortable, and often, cost effective. Good thoughts.
This is just a blind, no thought whatsoever suggestion, But if you got a second orbital, even if you just left it in your base to mule, how long would it delay your push, and how many extra hellions and marines could you produce? Would it be worth it?
And if you wanted turn this into a proper two base Marine/Hellion(Tank)/Battlecruiser 14ish minute 4 battlecruiser push...does anyone think that would sound feasible? Purely theorycrafting.
On February 06 2012 13:15 Angel_ wrote: This is just a blind, no thought whatsoever suggestion, But if you got a second orbital, even if you just left it in your base to mule, how long would it delay your push, and how many extra hellions and marines could you produce? Would it be worth it?
And if you wanted turn this into a proper two base Marine/Hellion(Tank)/Battlecruiser 14ish minute 4 battlecruiser push...does anyone think that would sound feasible? Purely theorycrafting.
Not too crazy actually. I tend to float a lot of minerals with this build, so an extra cc could be ok if you let your minerals get too high. The thing is, this build's goal does not take into account the late game, so it seems counter-intuitive to throw in a cc when you're executing a 1 base all-in. Also, battlecruisers +scvs can tank a LOT of damage. With mass repair, you will also burn a lot of minerals, so I would be careful expanding with this build.
If you were referring to something like a 1rax expo into BC/2base all in, I do not think it is viable. One of the strong points of this build is a surprise BC in close air positions. A 1rax expo into banshee is a viable opener on large maps because it provides map control, harassment, and is not as huge of an investment as bc's. The more you delay it, the more the zerg will be prepared.
Well this seems like a fun build to throw in to mess with Zergs TotalBiscuit must approve.
I think the only way this can be improved is if every appearance of the word "Battlecruiser" is in big red bold underlined capital letters.
Yeah, I can see why this would be a great followup to reactor hellion opening with marines to deny ovie scouts. Surprise Battlecruisers are pretty damn difficult to stop with any of the standard Zerg compositions that can be teched up at that stage. (NP's could screw you over but it looks like it hits before that, and rushing for NP leaves basically no defense for 1-base-all-in-worth of marine tank)
On February 06 2012 13:15 Angel_ wrote: This is just a blind, no thought whatsoever suggestion, But if you got a second orbital, even if you just left it in your base to mule, how long would it delay your push, and how many extra hellions and marines could you produce? Would it be worth it?
And if you wanted turn this into a proper two base Marine/Hellion(Tank)/Battlecruiser 14ish minute 4 battlecruiser push...does anyone think that would sound feasible? Purely theorycrafting.
I feel like 14 minutes for an all-in is a pretty long time without some kind of borderline suicidally early expansion and extra gas mining.
By comparison, a Zerg that was allowed to freely drone and get sick macro going could be almost maxed by 14 minutes. It's a lot later than you'd think.
I should also mention that I think you'd get harassed to death by that point in the game if you waited that long.
On February 06 2012 13:51 Mobius_1 wrote: Well this seems like a fun build to throw in to mess with Zergs TotalBiscuit must approve.
I think the only way this can be improved is if every appearance of the word "Battlecruiser" is in big red bold underlined capital letters.
Yeah, I can see why this would be a great followup to reactor hellion opening with marines to deny ovie scouts. Surprise Battlecruisers are pretty damn difficult to stop with any of the standard Zerg compositions that can be teched up at that stage. (NP's could screw you over but it looks like it hits before that, and rushing for NP leaves basically no defense for 1-base-all-in-worth of marine tank)
Yeah, in one of my games, I guess the zerg was going for more of a stephano style(lots of lings/+1 melee, infestors) and I feared that he would have NP. It didn't really matter though, because he straight up died to the push, wasting energy on IT's only for my slow ass BC's to run away and get repaired.
I lost to 2 base Battlecruisers out of 2 starports not too long ago on shakurus. He made a lot of turrets and turtled hard so i couldn't get in. Didn't have enough hydras or queens. They're pretty good... was like BCs?? this is BS. I feel bad for losing to it.
If a Terran does a lot of harass with the first bc, I could see the marine tank bc push being very effective. This is another all in im probably gonna have to think about on ladder soon...
If you know terran hasn't expanded by 5:30, then you should be staying on hatch tech, 1-2 gas, an evo, and massing ling/bane (2+ marines should cue you in it's not hellions).
Just wanna point out that Naama went gas first - fastest reactor helion. Nice post! Would love to try this out considering how much i dislike playing close air vs Zerg on Meta. Cheers!
I dont like the marine/marauder idea about this, it makes it alot more unsafe then tanks do.basically MM is good vs roach while marine tank is safe against almost every response. I'd do it as naama did it, except i might throw in another rax seeing as he had like 600 mins when he moved out.
I know it's not as fun, but wouldn't banshees be better than bcs for this all-in? It would be almost the same thing as the 111 with banshee against protoss isn't it?
The few times I've tried this so far on the ladder I've found that by the time I move out I have a metric shit ton of Minerals. No gas, ever. But a shit ton of minerals. Considering bringing less SCVs, starting a CC at my nat as soon as allowable, and leaving room for a possible pull back and not-all-in. Dunno.
Funny thing is: IdrA actually scouted this way WAY early and didn't react to it AT ALL. Like... not a single bit. I assume he assumed that the Terran would cancel his build because IdrA scouted it. But... well, he didn't.
On February 06 2012 20:29 Mahtasooma wrote: Funny thing is: IdrA actually scouted this way WAY early and didn't react to it AT ALL. Like... not a single bit. I assume he assumed that the Terran would cancel his build because IdrA scouted it. But... well, he didn't.
He thought there wouldn't be any ground units with this all-in. You can tell because he made at least 9 queens, and almost no zerglings.
On February 06 2012 14:30 krooked wrote: I tried it close by air on meta. Won easily and I got a lot of hate from the opponent. I don't like to get yelled out so won't be using it much more
A lot of zergs just call out Terran for the hell of calling out Terran. It's gotten better recently, but just yesterday I got a game on ladder where the Zerg was hyper-aggressive, but never really droned a lot. So, I eventually managed to push with marine/tank and a metric ton of banked minerals.(I wasn't playing great at the time; I was just on a losing streak.) He BM'd me before quitting.
Note that this is on NA ladder, I would assume people are more BM here.
watched this vid. ROFL As a zerg player, im going to play as terran a few times on ladder JUST because of this. Wonder if it will work vs terran and toss??
On February 06 2012 20:59 EndOfLine wrote: I love this guide!
watched this vid. ROFL As a zerg player, im going to play as terran a few times on ladder JUST because of this. Wonder if it will work vs terran and toss??
Battlecruisers in general are such a what the fuck unit in general that it could work, however, I don't think it should.
If you do it against terran he should be able to make enough vikings along with whatever else and beat your push.
If you do it against toss and they scout it they really can just kill you before your push I think. And if not I'm a little torn between "Repaired battlecruisers can tank a lot of stalker hits allowing your army to do a shit ton of damage" and, "I just don't think so".
Harassment - Protoss gets stalkers at the beginning, and having 8 stalkers in comparison to 4 queens is WAY better. Add the fact that protoss can chase the BC to the edge of the base (no creep dependency) any harassment that deals damage (more than one pylon on the edge) will likely fail.
the strength of Banshees is also the threat of cloak forcing observers, their speed and especially in the later engagements their DPS.
The delay of the battlecruiser enables the protoss to cut probes much later, giving him even more economic lead
Your 1/1/1 will also be significantly weaker due to the cost of 2 bc / Fusion core = around 750 Gas = 7.5 banshees ( no cloak). Also it will cut your tank count since you will be investing in a lot of Gas quickly for Battlecruisers.
The awesome things about BC vs protoss
Their insane HP with repair - Theyr like a floating building, taking all sentry / stalker hits from the protoss
Scvs repairing under them will block charge zealots, or just big zealot numbers.
Yamato Cannon might be upgradeable, and used to kill immortals quickly - else Battlecruisers just kill immortals quickly anyway also good against 0/0/0 zealots and stalkers
On February 06 2012 22:09 weikor wrote: only that protoss gets stalkers at the beginning, and having 8 stalkers in comparison to 4 queens is WAY better. Add the fact that protoss can chase the BC to the edge of the base (no creep dependency) any harassment that deals damage (more than one pylon on the edge) will likely fail.
the strength of Banshees is also the threat of cloak forcing observers, their speed and especially in the later engagements their DPS.
You don't get 8 Stalkers versus a suspected 111. You need 2 max. at each mineral line to deflect Banshees. The rest should be Zealot/Sentry/Immortal because crushing the ground-force is more important than killing the Banshees. You can warp-in Stalkers after the battle to kill the Banshees should you need to.
With a BC 111 the idea remains the same. Protoss has to focus on killing the ground army before trying to kill the air units. But because BC are harder to deflect away than Banshees, Protoss needs more Stalkers to deflect the harassment, which in-turn makes Protoss weaker against the ground push that comes afterwards. Which is why I think that a BC 111 could work, in principle.
Against a suspected 1/1/1, yes 4 stalkers, but then once you dont see Banshees you will probably scout him with an observer + make another at home. With close air, thats even easier. Also warpin of another 3-4 stalker will certainly deflect a BC + and you can micro against them
On February 06 2012 11:58 SidewinderSC2 wrote:I'd rather make my Marines tougher, kill Roaches more easily (and quicker if they decide to go for the 7 Roach pressure timing), and store up a few Hellions just to hopefully eliminate banelings and minimize damage on my Marines from Zerglings. Only downside is that Marauders can't be repaired and you won't have the time to produce a Medivac.
IIRC the timing is nearly perfect to get 1 medivac and the tech lab on the starport while the fusion core is building.
On February 06 2012 20:59 EndOfLine wrote: I love this guide!
watched this vid. ROFL As a zerg player, im going to play as terran a few times on ladder JUST because of this. Wonder if it will work vs terran and toss??
TSLPolt Beat Hashe (terran gm) with it. Vs protoss you'd be better off just 1-1-1ing, because unlike zerg, protoss will be constantly making units, not stupidly droning when they know a push is coming.
On February 06 2012 13:51 Mobius_1 wrote: Well this seems like a fun build to throw in to mess with Zergs TotalBiscuit must approve.
I think the only way this can be improved is if every appearance of the word "Battlecruiser" is in big red bold underlined capital letters.
Yeah, I can see why this would be a great followup to reactor hellion opening with marines to deny ovie scouts. Surprise Battlecruisers are pretty damn difficult to stop with any of the standard Zerg compositions that can be teched up at that stage. (NP's could screw you over but it looks like it hits before that, and rushing for NP leaves basically no defense for 1-base-all-in-worth of marine tank)
One base BATTLECRUISER TvZ Hello all, this is DoctorFunk, mid masters random on NA. About a week ago, I saw a hilarious vod of Naama vs IdrA on Metalopolis where Naama executed a 1 base BATTLECRUISER build against IdrA, and easily won. This got me thinking and questioning how viable it could be on certain maps. It's a straightforward, sloppy, fun build that can be used for close air TvZ. This is just a quick, simple guide for a quick and simple build. I've only tried it a few times, and haven't lost yet(to low-mid masters), probably due to them not knowing how the hell to react. I've seen hydras, corruptors, and generally everything that marine tank turns to goo.
The strength of this build comes in a few different forms. The first is the repair ability. You can send your BATTLECRUISER to harass, and simply pull it back to your base, repair it, and send it back. You never want to lose these BATTLECRUISERs, and you shouldn't.
The second strong point of this build is that the zerg players simply do not know how to react when they see the BATTLECRUISER. Sometimes they will try muta, sometimes hydra, sometimes corrupter. I think the best choice is queen + spores.
The third strong point is that you will be building up a marine/tank army on top of the BATTLECRUISERs. The zerg player will often prioritize the BATTLECRUISERs and just get rolled by your marine/tank push.
This build order is not exactly precise, and can vary a little bit depending on what you do whether its a 1rax bunker pressure, etc
Constant scv production, constant supply depots. only cut when your first bc is out, scvs are just as valuable as marines because of repair.
10- Supply depot 12- Barracks 13-Refinery 15 Orbital 15 Marine 16 Supply depot 17 Marine ~17-18 Factory at ramp 18-19 reactor on rax 18-19 second refinery
At factory completion, swap with barracks reactor and reactor out hellions. Also, add starport. Produce marines out of naked rax.
After 4 hellions out of the factory, swap the barracks onto the reactor. At starport completion, build fusion core immediately then tech lab on starport. At fusion core completion, start your first BATTLECRUISER(Yes!) ~Add another barracks as minerals permit, you could use an extra rax for marine production. Also, add a tech lab to your factory and begin tank production.
From here on out, you will have constant(ish) tank, marine, BATTLECRUISER production, any more information on build order is not necessary. If you don't have the gas for a tank due to your second bc, add in a hellion before building another tank.
You will make harass with your first bc, and make your push at around 11:30 with two BATTLECRUISERs, 2-3 tanks, a handful of marines, ~12-15 scvs and however many surviving hellions you have.(Preferably four)
You can refer to the replays for more specific timings. I didn't list exact supplies because I don't like that. Just make sure you don't supply block yourself. You need those one-basing mules, and don't want to delay production or supply drop. If you're supply blocked pretty bad, calling down supplies is not terrible, but that's a discussion for somewhere else.
This is the fun part of the build. It can be executed in many ways. When they see it
The Engagement
Since it begins as a standard reactor hellion opening, you want to keep your initial 4 hellions alive. Do not suicide them to kill drones. Simply poke in and out, and maintain map control, deny scouting, while denying creep spread.
Use your marines to deny overlord scouts. The less prepared they are for your initial BC, the more damage it will do. The more damage it will do, the stronger your push will be.
I only recommend this map for close air positions. With your first BATTLECRUISER, you want to be an abusive terran. Fly to their base, kill queens, kill drones, and fly back for repairs, then repeat. Believe it or not, queens can actually kite bc's on creep, so be ready for this. NEVER lose a bc.
When your second bc pops, it's time to all-in. Pull scvs, marines, tanks, bcs and hit the natural. Hard. Aim to have your siege mode complete as you arrive. Keep your bcs in front with scvs repairing. A lot of the time, you will enjoy a swift victory and a rage-quit from your opponent.
This is not a solid reactionary build. It is a one base all-in. I will only list what steps you need to take to stay alive from various things, but I will not cover everything, because it should be self explanatory(throw down a bunker, pull scvs to repair) Your hellions run into roaches If your hellions see roaches, immediately throw down 1-2 bunkers are your ramp and pull 6-8 scvs to repair. You should be fine, just don't let them bust your ramp or lings will stream in. 1 base baneling bust You should have scouted that he went 14/14 and has not expanded. Again, bunkers are good, hellions are good, and repair is good. It's even better if your reactor is inside your base. If not, you'll probably lose your reactor and a depot, and he will lose the game. If he 1 base baneling busts, do not carry on with this build. Instead, i would keep reactoring out hellions(probably 6), expand, and carry on standard. Just don't mine out of that second refinery for a bit.
This is a fun build. It can be pretty abusive, and shows that BATTLECRUISERs are actually pretty good and pretty hilarious. It's somewhat viable. I'm sure it can be easily countered, but I'm not going to talk about how, because then this build wouldn't be fun. Winning is fun. Having said that, I have yet to lose with it due to the generally confused zerg response and marine/tank/hellion/bc/scv all in. Replays follow.
Here are a few replays. They are not the most crisp execution possible. I have to sort through my games to find the rest, and will add more as I try it more! Enjoy.
This one is against a lower level, and more of just a demonstration of a poor reaction (died to the first BC)
This is just a more refined demo against AI. If you want more exact build orders, check here.
On February 06 2012 20:29 Mahtasooma wrote: Funny thing is: IdrA actually scouted this way WAY early and didn't react to it AT ALL. Like... not a single bit. I assume he assumed that the Terran would cancel his build because IdrA scouted it. But... well, he didn't.
He thought there wouldn't be any ground units with this all-in. You can tell because he made at least 9 queens, and almost no zerglings.
On February 06 2012 14:30 krooked wrote: I tried it close by air on meta. Won easily and I got a lot of hate from the opponent. I don't like to get yelled out so won't be using it much more
A lot of zergs just call out Terran for the hell of calling out Terran. It's gotten better recently, but just yesterday I got a game on ladder where the Zerg was hyper-aggressive, but never really droned a lot. So, I eventually managed to push with marine/tank and a metric ton of banked minerals.(I wasn't playing great at the time; I was just on a losing streak.) He BM'd me before quitting.
Note that this is on NA ladder, I would assume people are more BM here.
Zergs call out a Terran because we feel fragile, and we are fragile, in the matchup. Our marine-killing unit dies with the marines and costs gas. Terrans can build expansions in the safety of their base, then float out, drop mules, and have another marine army. Seige tanks can split bases, making it impossible to reinforce against an army that can't be whittled down, but needs to be overrun.
Terrans have 18 unit/building upgrades, zergs have 12. Two of those essentially give zergs a dropship. Terrans have more spells, more casters, more units, more upgrades.
Case in point? A battlecruiser. Take a standard play, add a battlecruiser, it works. Try the same with a zerg unit. Add two ultralisk into the mix, or two broodlords. It doesn't work. Zerg, for the most part, can't be cute. They have to play standard, they have to simply overpower you and choose where and when to engage.
At the highest levels, where everyone knows their timings, it pretty much works. But my point is, Terrans have a lot more options to subtly change their play, taking a standard composition and tweaking it, slightly, making it hugely more effective. Zergs just don't have that chance, not in the same way.
Not saying its unwinnable. But I think there's a problem when one race has 1/3 more options than another. It leads to a situation where the less diverse race just gets "figured out" and winning becomes much more difficult.
Baneling-queen-ling beats this. Throw some brofestors in also also why no have spores at front if you kill the scv you win, banes are also good vs marine.
I am loving this info! I know nothing of the tvt or tvp match up.
However, I wonder if it would be possible to drop the tanks, Get another star port, and use all the gas on just BC's, and just the extra min on marine and helion????
On February 06 2012 22:46 IOvEggY wrote: Baneling-queen-ling beats this. Throw some brofestors in also also why no have spores at front if you kill the scv you win, banes are also good vs marine.
This. Naama was just joking around with that build. I have no idea how idra managed to lose that game, i'm sure he would win if that happened again.
Back when they first buffed BC speed I would do a 2 BC all in on the PTR. It was 2 BCs plus marines and hellions and I think it hit around 10-10:30. It worked against the noobs but anyone smart enough to build ling bane just crushed it.
The third strong point is that you will be building up a marine/tank army on top of the battlecruisers. The zerg player will often prioritize the battlecruisers and just get rolled by your marine/tank push.
In my humble opinion. the above is not "the third strong point" - it is THE strong point. As I see it, the reason this build works is not that it is a "battlecruiser build" - the reason it works is that it's NOT a battle cruiser build, but rather a battlecruiser flavored 1-1-1-ish/multicomp build. The thing is that the BC presence and harass screws with the zerg mind enough to make them forego proper scouting and be defenseless against the marine/tank component of the push. It's like when someone (not that it ever happened to me *cough cough*) gets contained by hellions and forget (ie do not have multitasking/calm/presence of mind enough) to scout the T follow up and lose to banshees or marauders or tanks or whatever EVIL ways the T decided to go after hellions. The BC picture is too large in the mind of the zerg and other threats get dwarfed. Probably because the BC are less frequently seen.
Ah well something like that.
Disclaimer: Having said that, I guess people would lose to pure BCs too. TT
On February 06 2012 08:57 Wortie wrote: I serously don't want this to be popular, please remove this thread. I just watched the vod and it seems like another good terran all-in. My only thoughts are: I have to learn to deal with this shit too???
On February 07 2012 00:26 zasta wrote: Aahahahah brilliant! I'm so glad you warned me of this :D
If I ever scout a fusion core like that I'm going to be ready with neural parasite. Battlecruiser/ling/bling works quite well against marine tank.
I don't think you can get NP in time for 'dem BC's. Counter is stated earlier in the thread as ling/queen with optional bling.
ling/bling queen really isnt even an optimal "hard" counter. by that i mean itll come down to where your spores are, where the battlecruisers are, how well you micro, and if siege mode is done. at worst for terran they wont be able to keep thier scvs with their battlecruisers.
and infestors won't get out in time to do anything.
On February 06 2012 17:33 amostan wrote: Just wanna point out that Naama went gas first - fastest reactor helion. Nice post! Would love to try this out considering how much i dislike playing close air vs Zerg on Meta. Cheers!
yup, fast hellions are good too. I prefer rax first, the gas seems to line up better. Also you can build the rax at the cliff, lift it to the low ground and do some 1-2 marine bunker pressure. Every little thing counts. You want to be an annoying ass Terran. They defend the bunker pressure.. "what a relief." then your hellions go in and roast some shit. Then they see a battle cruiser and question your sanity.
On February 07 2012 00:26 zasta wrote: Aahahahah brilliant! I'm so glad you warned me of this :D
If I ever scout a fusion core like that I'm going to be ready with neural parasite. Battlecruiser/ling/bling works quite well against marine tank.
I don't think you can get NP in time for 'dem BC's. Counter is stated earlier in the thread as ling/queen with optional bling.
ling/bling queen really isnt even an optimal "hard" counter. by that i mean itll come down to where your spores are, where the battlecruisers are, how well you micro, and if siege mode is done. at worst for terran they wont be able to keep thier scvs with their battlecruisers.
and infestors won't get out in time to do anything.
Incorrect. The Terran ground army isn't big enough to deal with mass ling bling. The ground army just gets crushed and then all the zerg needs is queens and spores to defend while he counters. This isn't a viable build at the master league level.
IMO a 2 BC all in is more viable against Protoss, although still easily countered if the Protoss player knows what he's doing.
On February 07 2012 00:26 zasta wrote: Aahahahah brilliant! I'm so glad you warned me of this :D
If I ever scout a fusion core like that I'm going to be ready with neural parasite. Battlecruiser/ling/bling works quite well against marine tank.
I don't think you can get NP in time for 'dem BC's. Counter is stated earlier in the thread as ling/queen with optional bling.
ling/bling queen really isnt even an optimal "hard" counter. by that i mean itll come down to where your spores are, where the battlecruisers are, how well you micro, and if siege mode is done. at worst for terran they wont be able to keep thier scvs with their battlecruisers.
and infestors won't get out in time to do anything.
Incorrect. The Terran ground army isn't big enough to deal with mass ling bling. The ground army just gets crushed and then all the zerg needs is queens and spores to defend while he counters. This isn't a viable build at the master league level.
IMO a 2 BC all in is more viable against Protoss, although still easily countered if the Protoss player knows what he's doing.
idk, stalkers do alright against battle cruisers. And the toss should never lose a stalker. When it's health gets low, it can just run away. Battle cruisers can't exactly chase them down. Maybe with smart positioning(tanks protecting bcs from stalkers) it could work, but I don't really see it.
This sounded so good in theory but in practice it did not work at all. People in Platinum counters this perfectly, first they mass queens, they mass expand and go mass corruptor/queen ling/bling and then corrupter/broodlord.
Sometimes I am surprised that you can get away with so much stuff at master level that you immediately are punished for at lower levels. Or maybe you need really good micro to pull this off.
I will need the Totalbiscuit seal of approval before I accept this guide as a legitimate BC rush guide. Anyways, this looks like a seriously powerful tactic that will most likely get figured out pretty darn quick. You guys might want to kill a bunch of noobs on the ladder real quick before some pro stomps it at a lan tournament.
On February 06 2012 08:57 Wortie wrote: I serously don't want this to be popular, please remove this thread. I just watched the vod and it seems like another good terran all-in. My only thoughts are: I have to learn to deal with this shit too???
On February 07 2012 06:20 MockHamill wrote: This sounded so good in theory but in practice it did not work at all. People in Platinum counters this perfectly, first they mass queens, they mass expand and go mass corruptor/queen ling/bling and then corrupter/broodlord.
Sometimes I am surprised that you can get away with so much stuff at master level that you immediately are punished for at lower levels. Or maybe you need really good micro to pull this off.
Post a replay and let's see if they countered you, or you just didn't execute it properly.
When my lower league friends complain that something they did PERFECTLY didn't work out, I ask for the replays and invariably find out they were 1-3 mins late (75%), or had 20 supply less (20%), or TOTALLY botched the micro (5%).
I guarantee you if you cleanly execute this it will crush anyone below diamond. I mean if you come and they have TWELVE SPORZ LUL in each base, then feel free to expand twice and take the game long, but if they do standard platinum macro play and you hit the timings of this build, you will win.
I am not saying this build is good or bad or viable at high levels - I ain't tried it. But I know the timings and you will raep gold/plat. IF you execute it to the letter.
LOL okay I just tried this out on a custom game against a low Platinum zerg, and i totally roflstomped him. He had no idea what was coming, I think he expected some one-base mech or big marine-tank push. I'll upload the replay as soon as my replay uploads start working again^^
It's a lot of fun. I ran a few more games with it and added some replays to the original post. To those questioning the viability and claiming that it is not viable at masters level.....it kind of is, just check the first few replays. It's fun until it's figured out. I'll upload more if I play some more.
Had this done to me. Didn't work so well when I got 6 queens up versus his bcs, then sniped them all with corruptors thentransitioned into broods. BCs suck pretty hard for map control if you can get the creep out.
Î had this done to me a few days ago... I was very confused at first, but corruptor + mass speedling with some banes worked pretty well. Then again I wasn't up against a pro doing this build.
Also I think a quick switch to massling with baneling bust would hit you pretty hard with this.
IdrA lost because he simply played waaaaaaay to greedy, droning up to 57 against a 1 base play. He should have been producing units slightly after he saw the fusion core and I feel as though he would have held it rather easily. But, Naama exploited IdrA's greedyness and thats the way the cookie crumbled.
I've been thinking of trying out terran a bit lately, and this build doesn't exactly make me less inclined to do so. Ho ho. But it's a dangerous path to walk ofc. Must... resist... 1 base... all in....
Has anyone considered the possibility of using this against other races? Maybe it's not just an occasional all-in, but a future standard opening! ahaha joking obviously.. but seriously, could it work vs T and P?
On February 08 2012 02:29 PickledNoob wrote: Has anyone considered the possibility of using this against other races? Maybe it's not just an occasional all-in, but a future standard opening! ahaha joking obviously.. but seriously, could it work vs T and P?
Vs. Terran: Gonna go with no. First off, its much more difficult to straight up deny scouting to a terran. You can wall-off and shoot down overlords, and a zerg is in the dark and must prepare for multiple threats (and I don't think preparing for a BC all-in is very prevalent in their minds). But if I see that you're on 1 base and aren't doing anything that I can draw conclusions on, I'm scanning you. If they have vikings (And it's not unreasonable to see them when the starport is scouted) they can abuse their range to hit the battlecruisers. What I mean is that with corruptors, the reason the build seems to work is that they're forced to close on the battlecruiser, in a position where the marines can run up and kill them. Vikings can stay back while you try to seige up, and stop the battlecruiser from poking in, reducing it to a weakened marine/tank all-in.
Vs. Protoss: Depends how they decide to react. Zealot/Void Ray might be good against it (can't say without reps) but I'm pretty sure stalkers are the first (and likely wrong) decision most 'Toss would jump to. Stalkers are versatile, but can't really out-damage mass-repair on battlecruisers, not to mention that the DPS from your Marine/Tank force will crush the stalkers as soon as they try to close on the BCs.
Very cute build; I love that builds like these exist, not only because they're fun, but they add on to the list of things Zerg are scared of and might overreact to.
I'm pretty sure this has no way of working against any race except zerg since it exploits their early game anti air handicap. Terran would be able to scout this with a comsat once they see that you have no forces and just stomp you with bio. Toss just need stalkers.
On February 08 2012 02:29 PickledNoob wrote: Has anyone considered the possibility of using this against other races? Maybe it's not just an occasional all-in, but a future standard opening! ahaha joking obviously.. but seriously, could it work vs T and P?
I think a P that relies on stalkers could probably stop the BCs and then play standard, and a T that goes medivacs at all will be able to make a coupla vikings pretty easily, but i don't know. It could still work
I have a crazy idea that might work. I checked out the timings in the naama vs idra VOD.
What if, after (or before) the techlab on the Starport has been made, you make a Medivac. This might add a couple seconds, but based on the timings on the replay there's enough resources and Starport idle-time available to do it.
When the Battlecruiser pops, set the Medivac to follow it to the Zerg base. Of course the Medivac will be filled with 8 SCVs to repair the BC. So when the BC gets to the Zerg base, the SCVs are unloaded. This will give the BC much more sustainability around 8:50. If a large group of lings or roaches come to attack the SCV, load them into the vac and let the BC repel them, then unload and continue to harass.
Much like Blazinghand's ThorShip post, the BC will not necessarily kill the opponent right away, but it will disturb their production and economy for a stronger 11:00 push.
On February 08 2012 08:15 RukKus wrote: I have a crazy idea that might work. I checked out the timings in the naama vs idra VOD.
What if, after (or before) the techlab on the Starport has been made, you make a Medivac. This might add a couple seconds, but based on the timings on the replay there's enough resources and Starport idle-time available to do it.
When the Battlecruiser pops, set the Medivac to follow it to the Zerg base. Of course the Medivac will be filled with 8 SCVs to repair the BC. So when the BC gets to the Zerg base, the SCVs are unloaded. This will give the BC much more sustainability around 8:50. If a large group of lings or roaches come to attack the SCV, load them into the vac and let the BC repel them, then unload and continue to harass.
Much like Blazinghand's ThorShip post, the BC will not necessarily kill the opponent right away, but it will disturb their production and economy for a stronger 11:00 push.
I used to do that in a Tvt build. I built a medivac out of naked starport, switchdd to tech lab and shuttled 8 scvs over then 8 marines and the bc. I think the problem in a tvz is that lings would quickly take care of the scvs with just an a-move(prioritizing repairing units). It's a good thought though, and a medivac could be worth it for your ~1130 push. This build is really gas starved though.
As far as using this in tvt-- I believe that a competent Terran that is not doing a far fetched build should have the infrastructure to deal with this much more easily than a Zerg player.
It's a nice all in, however i dislike that you don't want to tell zergs how to beat this, makes me think that you use this every TvZ and you just don't want to lose and have easy wins.
On February 08 2012 10:00 NozliW_ wrote: It's a nice all in, however i dislike that you don't want to tell zergs how to beat this, makes me think that you use this every TvZ and you just don't want to lose and have easy wins.
I play random, so I don't favor any race.. and have discussed the counter throughout the thread^^ a few extra queens, a few extra spores, and no crazy overreaction(mass corruptor).
You can deal with this in plenty of different ways, all are valid.
They key as with most any terran 1 base build that involves pulling a lot of SCV's, is that you need a baneling nest and banelings to do at least decent damage.
I did a really defensive, slow 3 rax. (thought he was 1 - 1 - 1 drop w/banshee) Basically i just made a shit ton of marines and mauraders and then waited in my base while having vision outside just in case he was going to siege me or something. In came the battlecruisers, and I looked at his overall composition and just started laughing hysterically.
...and then stimmed and the bcs died along with everything else =\ caught him unsieged.
On February 14 2012 03:31 Angel_ wrote: someone did this to me in tvt today.
I did a really defensive, slow 3 rax. (thought he was 1 - 1 - 1 drop w/banshee) Basically i just made a shit ton of marines and mauraders and then waited in my base while having vision outside just in case he was going to siege me or something. In came the battlecruisers, and I looked at his overall composition and just started laughing hysterically.
...and then stimmed and the bcs died along with everything else =\ caught him unsieged.
Rushing for BCs vs P or T is probably pretty bad in almost all games because their standard units can fire vs air. The only reason this works vs Z is that they lack anti air at the start. I remember that some Ts even tried to go with some sort of viking rushes vs Z back in the good old days when scrap station was still in the map pool.
On February 06 2012 08:57 Wortie wrote: I serously don't want this to be popular, please remove this thread. I just watched the vod and it seems like another good terran all-in. My only thoughts are: I have to learn to deal with this shit too???
On February 14 2012 21:08 ODKStevez wrote: No reason to close the thread but yes, another build to add to the guess list when you can't scout terran =[ Oh god.
Are you guys really serious? It's close air positions, you can either sac an overlord or expect an all-in when you dont see an expo by 6 mins....I mean, really - its only close air positions that it's viable anyways.
However, I think its a decent strat, might have to give it a shot in the near future, especially since late game terran is going to be non-existant soon. Also, I would all-in Idra every single time I met him on the ladder just so that I can see him rage quit If he cant make 55 drones before 6 mins then its obviously an abusive OP terran strat, rofl!
On February 14 2012 03:31 Angel_ wrote: someone did this to me in tvt today.
I did a really defensive, slow 3 rax. (thought he was 1 - 1 - 1 drop w/banshee) Basically i just made a shit ton of marines and mauraders and then waited in my base while having vision outside just in case he was going to siege me or something. In came the battlecruisers, and I looked at his overall composition and just started laughing hysterically.
...and then stimmed and the bcs died along with everything else =\ caught him unsieged.
Rushing for BCs vs P or T is probably pretty bad in almost all games because their standard units can fire vs air. The only reason this works vs Z is that they lack anti air at the start. I remember that some Ts even tried to go with some sort of viking rushes vs Z back in the good old days when scrap station was still in the map pool.
Peace Dan
I started doing 1-1-1's against Toss with BC's instead of Banshees just for fun a while go and haven't lost yet in ~8 tries . Feels worse then the standard 1-1-1 since i hit with 2 BC's , 2-3 Tanks and well Marines its pretty delayed but can work if he doesn't know BC's are coming or reacts totally stupid. Pretty sure a Blink build would insta kill me though ^^.
On February 14 2012 03:31 Angel_ wrote: someone did this to me in tvt today.
I did a really defensive, slow 3 rax. (thought he was 1 - 1 - 1 drop w/banshee) Basically i just made a shit ton of marines and mauraders and then waited in my base while having vision outside just in case he was going to siege me or something. In came the battlecruisers, and I looked at his overall composition and just started laughing hysterically.
...and then stimmed and the bcs died along with everything else =\ caught him unsieged.
Rushing for BCs vs P or T is probably pretty bad in almost all games because their standard units can fire vs air. The only reason this works vs Z is that they lack anti air at the start. I remember that some Ts even tried to go with some sort of viking rushes vs Z back in the good old days when scrap station was still in the map pool.
Peace Dan
I started doing 1-1-1's against Toss with BC's instead of Banshees just for fun a while go and haven't lost yet in ~8 tries . Feels worse then the standard 1-1-1 since i hit with 2 BC's , 2-3 Tanks and well Marines its pretty delayed but can work if he doesn't know BC's are coming or reacts totally stupid. Pretty sure a Blink build would insta kill me though ^^.
Hahaha, that sounds pretty badass! :D I guess it works pretty okay since your BCs are really damn hard to kill, forcing more stalkers aswell.. meaning more free kills for your tanks. Who knows, you might be on to something big here ;D
On February 06 2012 14:30 krooked wrote: I tried it close by air on meta. Won easily and I got a lot of hate from the opponent. I don't like to get yelled out so won't be using it much more
You must hate playing as terran then. I get hate no matter what I do, winning, losing, all-ining, macroing, microing... it's actually pretty comical now that I think about it haha.
But on topic, this'll be great, I have major trouble against zerg (for some reason lol), and maybe this will be a build that I can add to my repertoire. Thanks .
I had to offrace a bit as T just to try this. Unfortunately it turned out that I suck big time as T and my execution was so bad that even gold zergs seemed surprisingly prepared for it. Eh...
hey your guide says the push is at 11:30 but Naama moves out a little before 10 minutes and 2nd BC pops at 10 minutes. Game ends before 11:30. I know the time at which you reach your opponent is map dependent, but the 'move out time' shouldn't be
1. you should scout it and be on 2 base 2. its pretty easy to stop if you scout it queens and spores but the secondary all in is the hard part but if you kill everything but the BCs you are fine. You need lings and banelings (I presume).
I did hold this off but im not going to look for the replay. He didn't pull SCVs which if I remember the naama one he did so banelings would help in that case. Pure ling should hold it off if there are no SCVs. If they don't pull SCVs and try to macro out of it and you can't kill all or any of the BCs nydus or build hydra roach to kill them (this happened to me and yes I know hydra suck but against this build they are pretty good).
On February 06 2012 14:30 krooked wrote: I tried it close by air on meta. Won easily and I got a lot of hate from the opponent. I don't like to get yelled out so won't be using it much more
You must hate playing as terran then. I get hate no matter what I do, winning, losing, all-ining, macroing, microing... it's actually pretty comical now that I think about it haha.
But on topic, this'll be great, I have major trouble against zerg (for some reason lol), and maybe this will be a build that I can add to my repertoire. Thanks .
Indeed, it's best when someone totally botches his micro and then starts blaming some random unit "OP".
But yer, love all these hellion opening builds. Makes it really hard for the zerg to make any assumptions without scouting, and then scouting is a bitch with hellions out denying creep and slings. Would love to use BCs more.
I'm a top diamond terran on the EU server and I've been practising this build.
My own observations are as follows; on larger maps this build is difficult, but it still can work. Harassment is not really an option when you have so much distance between bases; so it is best to just move out with two BCs, a handful of Rines, and a tank or two. If your hellions are still alive, they will help.
The general reaction at this point from the Z is to mass zerglings to take out ground force and throw everything against the BCs. It is a great time to build your expansion & pump rines to defend!
Eventually I follow up with either more tank/rine play or... ravens. Yeah, ravens. You have a lot of gas leftover and corruptors are often the go-to for Z's who were planning to mass Mutas. Mass autoturret is great against these combos!
All in all I like this build. Hellions deny the creep and give him the wrong idea. The most difficult thing so far has been hiding the damn fusion core! It works even if it is spotted though.
While I love the idea of mixing in BCs against zerg I feel like so much of this build relys on the Zerg responding inappropriately. Now that this has been become at least a little bit more widespread zergs should understand better that spore/queen will fend off any real harass from the BCs and if they keep their normal ling/bling ground army strong they will stomp over a weak marine/tank push (because of the investment into BCs).
As a side note, has anyone tried mixing in BCs lategame against zerg, either as a counter to broodlords along with vikings or even against a mainly ground ultra/bling comp? Yamato cannon is pretty strong at picking off slowing moving BLs so I feel like it could be viable in less of an all-in setting. Of course this would require you to be on even economy with the zerg going into the late game.
On February 19 2012 04:55 HardCorey wrote: While I love the idea of mixing in BCs against zerg I feel like so much of this build relys on the Zerg responding inappropriately. Now that this has been become at least a little bit more widespread zergs should understand better that spore/queen will fend off any real harass from the BCs and if they keep their normal ling/bling ground army strong they will stomp over a weak marine/tank push (because of the investment into BCs).
As a side note, has anyone tried mixing in BCs lategame against zerg, either as a counter to broodlords along with vikings or even against a mainly ground ultra/bling comp? Yamato cannon is pretty strong at picking off slowing moving BLs so I feel like it could be viable in less of an all-in setting. Of course this would require you to be on even economy with the zerg going into the late game.
Late game battlecruisers is not really a great transition. You would have to build a fusion core, extra starports, and deal with the long build time. The Zerg can easily just pump a few extra corruptors to deal with it. Also, wouldn't bcs do terrible against ultras due to their armor? I guess they could Yamato cannon them, but overall I feel like relying on Vikings now that ghosts are useless is the way to go. It's just going to be difficult with the switching between broods and ultras. I feel like you would have to be way ahead to utilize bcs late game. And then you will be behind....because you invested in bcs and they got killed by corruptors. It's just not easy for Terran to make reactive tech switches. As reactive as it gets is throwing down tech labs and making ghosts, or adding starports for Vikings.
It's been 13 days since the OP, HardCorey, I don't think this is 'widespread'.
Besides; the zerg army can't really hurt a careful terran who continues to deny creep spread and a 3rd once the big reveal has been made. They will pre-occupy their time getting either corruptors or hydra - rarely do they go for enough Mutalisks. The worst you can expect for 3 mins after reveal is an effective surprise counter attack while your army sits near his base repairing or re-enforcing. You can also compliment the pressure with Viking overlord harass; or buildings local to the zerg (e.g. bunker/turret pressure) provided you watch for nydus or muta packs.
The only thing that makes this build better is to proxy the fusion core. Put it one of the other mains and your opponent will be shocked when he notices them ain't banshees killing his drones.
So just saw Rainbow do this on his stream as a replay, one base BC into mass blue flame hellion for map control then added on tanks and thors. Was ahead the entire game, I think i am going to try this out sometime. It just seems weak to some kind of roach ling baneling bust but who knows
On February 20 2012 12:45 FinestHour wrote: So just saw Rainbow do this on his stream as a replay, one base BC into mass blue flame hellion for map control then added on tanks and thors. Was ahead the entire game, I think i am going to try this out sometime. It just seems weak to some kind of roach ling baneling bust but who knows
Agreed about the roach/ling/bling bust part. I have a hard time seeing the BC kill stuff fast enough for you to survive. The Z should be able to just bust down your front door and kill your from inside, ignoring the BC hiting his forces.
On March 12 2012 02:31 LiLSighKoh wrote: Would this be viable not close air spawn?
I think so, just not as good. My initial bc usually hardly does any direct damage other than a queen or two and forcing a lot of spores and hopefully something stupid like hydras. That being said, it's very nice to be reckless with the bc, do a bunch of damage, pull it back, repair, repeat, and so on.
On March 12 2012 04:47 dotDash wrote: You can also proxy the port if you are a baller! xD
That could work well on Metropolis if you lift it to one of the islands, since it wouldn't delay the BC too much, though it has a possibility of being scouted by an overlord. Perhaps at one of the corners.....
The reason I'm bringing up Metropolis is because of the recent poll from Blizzard about adding in GSL maps to ladder, and Metropolis is second, with Daybreak in first place.
This is my new cheese of choice! It's hilarious how Zerg players respond to this build when they see it.
They initially say "wow, you're making BCs?" When I arrive at their base, they have made ~30 Hydras and nothing else. GG. So far 4/4 wins in low master league!
i played against this build today two times in a row and i held it with spores+4 queens and infestor, but they also had a couple of banshees with cloak mixed in. but yes it is a really good build against zerg because they just don't know how to respond.
On March 13 2012 00:55 Twisted450 wrote: i played against this build today two times in a row and i held it with spores+4 queens and infestor, but they also had a couple of banshees with cloak mixed in. but yes it is a really good build against zerg because they just don't know how to respond.
Cloak banshees are probably a waaaaay too big investment and will either cut out the tanks entirely or delay the attack by way to long time. Proper response is however as you said, few spores to survive and couple of queens.. do NOT overreact to the BCs basically.
On February 06 2012 14:30 krooked wrote: I tried it close by air on meta. Won easily and I got a lot of hate from the opponent. I don't like to get yelled out so won't be using it much more
On February 06 2012 14:30 krooked wrote: I tried it close by air on meta. Won easily and I got a lot of hate from the opponent. I don't like to get yelled out so won't be using it much more
Getting yelled at is the best part
Imo they have no right to get mad when killed by BCs! ^^
On February 06 2012 09:38 TranceKuja wrote: I am surpised that Idra did not react better. He scouted fusion core while it was building.
this. i dont play terran or zerg, but it looked like with getting that solid scout in he could have dropped a baneling nest, busted the front and owned everything inside. suiciding a second overlord would have given him enough info on how viable that would have been which was (very) at the beginning where there were close to no marines or tanks.
On March 12 2012 04:47 dotDash wrote: You can also proxy the port if you are a baller! xD
That could work well on Metropolis if you lift it to one of the islands, since it wouldn't delay the BC too much, though it has a possibility of being scouted by an overlord. Perhaps at one of the corners.....
The reason I'm bringing up Metropolis is because of the recent poll from Blizzard about adding in GSL maps to ladder, and Metropolis is second, with Daybreak in first place.
My standard infestor/ling/bling shut this down pretty easy, but my opponent's control was hilariously poor. I don't think he was used to micro-ing BCs lololol. Mass muta/mass hydra is like the worst thing you could do, just go nuts with spines/spores/queens. This is sooooo all-in by terran, just hold any way possible.
can you write up a Battlecruiser rush guide for TvP too? never seen a replay or VOD of that yet butI imagine it would be funny to see how protoss would react to that focusing 100% on the BC while you get a bio or mech army behind it.
On April 05 2012 19:40 c_kAelle wrote: can you write up a Battlecruiser rush guide for TvP too? never seen a replay or VOD of that yet butI imagine it would be funny to see how protoss would react to that focusing 100% on the BC while you get a bio or mech army behind it.
It's not anywhere near as good for P since they can just produce slightly more stalkers instead of zealots. Z is forced to commit to early game AA where P gets it by default.
On April 05 2012 19:40 c_kAelle wrote: can you write up a Battlecruiser rush guide for TvP too? never seen a replay or VOD of that yet butI imagine it would be funny to see how protoss would react to that focusing 100% on the BC while you get a bio or mech army behind it.
It's not anywhere near as good for P since they can just produce slightly more stalkers instead of zealots. Z is forced to commit to early game AA where P gets it by default.
It could work in some funky 1-1-1 though, as mentioned earlier in this thread (I believe).
I just had some insane flashbacks. One being idra kiting a BC back around sc2 launch with a queen until spores got up on Blistering Sands. Others arent dramatic, just me BC rushing because nothing says I don't care about your AA more than a yamato blast to the face.
Has anyone tried this build since the queen buff? Since nearly every zerg is going mass queens opener, the first BC invariably deals little to no damage (usually only 1 ovie kill) which invariably puts you significantly behind when it comes to your 2 BC push...
I think this works better as a follow up to a 1 rax expand on a map like shakuras.
You can get the 1 rax expand easily on that map and then follow with quick gasses and easily hide the starports somewhere in your enormous main. You can then support 3 Star Battlecruiser quickly
On May 21 2012 17:52 Daniel C wrote: Has anyone tried this build since the queen buff? Since nearly every zerg is going mass queens opener, the first BC invariably deals little to no damage (usually only 1 ovie kill) which invariably puts you significantly behind when it comes to your 2 BC push...
Well the queen buff only affects it's ground attack, so that doesn't affect BCs. Assuming that the queen buff is inducing Zerg players to produce more queens at the beginning in general, then it still doesn't affect the first BC harass that much, since the extra queens should be out in front of the natural spreading creep. This strategy never really relied on doing that much damage with the harass, the harass is more intended to make you opponent panic and scramble to put together an ill-fitting defense.
On May 21 2012 19:24 EneMecH wrote: I think this works better as a follow up to a 1 rax expand on a map like shakuras.
You can get the 1 rax expand easily on that map and then follow with quick gasses and easily hide the starports somewhere in your enormous main. You can then support 3 Star Battlecruiser quickly
The whole point of the 1 base BC build is timing. Hitting the timing around 8:30-9:00 ensures that your Zerg opponent will have very little in the way of lair tech units to be able to respond (though arguably, the best response to a 1 base BC all-in doesn't rely on lair tech at all, just queens, lings, and roaches). Hitting a later timing with more BCs could work, but your opponent is more likely to have adequate defenses by that point (more queens, more roaches, and corruptors), thus making the all-in much more difficult.
On February 07 2012 06:20 MockHamill wrote: This sounded so good in theory but in practice it did not work at all. People in Platinum counters this perfectly, first they mass queens, they mass expand and go mass corruptor/queen ling/bling and then corrupter/broodlord.
Sometimes I am surprised that you can get away with so much stuff at master level that you immediately are punished for at lower levels. Or maybe you need really good micro to pull this off.
Post a replay and let's see if they countered you, or you just didn't execute it properly.
When my lower league friends complain that something they did PERFECTLY didn't work out, I ask for the replays and invariably find out they were 1-3 mins late (75%), or had 20 supply less (20%), or TOTALLY botched the micro (5%).
I guarantee you if you cleanly execute this it will crush anyone below diamond. I mean if you come and they have TWELVE SPORZ LUL in each base, then feel free to expand twice and take the game long, but if they do standard platinum macro play and you hit the timings of this build, you will win.
I am not saying this build is good or bad or viable at high levels - I ain't tried it. But I know the timings and you will raep gold/plat. IF you execute it to the letter.
Your missing the point... If they overreacted and got too many spores/queens marine tank would just smash that. The battlecruiser makes them think its all their getting. The bigger threat is the ground army.. Look at the video of idra vs naama idra deflected the first bc harass by kiting on creep with 3 queens. Unless he was saying mass queens was beating marine/tank + bc then yes, something is clearly wrong.
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Thanks for the vod, I added it to the replays section.
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