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Keep the discussion civil, please. |
United Kingdom3249 Posts
The following is a somewhat abridged version of a twitter exchange between Slasher, EGHuK, Totalbiscuit and others.
It started with Slasher bemoaning his fate as the victim of Reddit hate threads on the back of his comments about professional SC2 players taking the helm as analytical casters in large SC2 tournaments.
I have removed some of the twitter comments, namely all of the ones from 'random people' as well as ones that I deemed to be peripheral to the discussion. It is also more than likely that I have missed some tweets as re-manufacturing this conversation from Twitter's sadly lacking interface was not simple.
Via Twitter
Slasher wrote:
Wow I got two Reddit hate threads from my comments regarding players casting yesterday. Must say I like "Fuck Slasher... Seriously" better.
HuK wrote:
@Slasher well ur comments were pretty ignorant as usual. if players were smart tho most would transition to casters; its a better job
Slasher wrote:
@LorangerChris I doubt you watched the show so how would you know what I said, unless you're also basing off of misconstrued reddit posts
HuK wrote:
@Slasher so wat exactly did u say then unless what ppl have told me is wrong ?
Slasher wrote:
@LorangerChris Not gonna fit in tweets here honestly but what I said was that I would like to see us/eSports to get to the point that.
- we have a larger separation between between players and casters/journalists, which also lets each focus on their job better
- Artosis, Day, Tasteless, Apollo and Rotterdam are the best analytical casters, whats the last tournament any of them played?
HuK wrote:
@Slasher top lvl players by default are almost always going to be better analytical casters then any of those sorry
@Slasher and u have to remember opportunities like this is how people even became casters, like @callmetasteless
Slasher wrote:
@LorangerChris I think the opportunity @callmetasteless is great, but whats the last tournament he played in? Players are nice and want to
HuK wrote:
@Slasher @callmetasteless do u know the story of how @callmetasteless started casting?
Slasher wrote:
@LorangerChris yeah but im not disputing that, just that major tournaments (and i think MLG does it right) only uses casters, never players
@LorangerChris @callmetasteless support the community, help out when needed. This is all a future aspiration for professionalism.
HuK wrote:
@Slasher point is that right now most casters are overpaid, overpraised, and better treated then players, even though some are subpar tbh
Slasher wrote:
@LorangerChris yes, THAT is bullshit. Players need to be paid and more popular than the players .
HuK wrote:
@Slasher that being said casters know their worth more then players, are more business savvy as well; players are dumb that way
dApollo wrote:
@LorangerChris @Slasher though if a player wanted to transition over, they need to be gifted with speech/able to talk a lot with camera etc.
Totalbiscuit wrote:
@slasher @lorangerchris I tend to agree with HuK tbh and I wanted to talk about that more last night. Basically the 2nd generation of analytical casters will be pro-players either doing it part-time or having retired. The current generation of analysts are ex-broodwar pros or in the case of Apollo, ex-CnC pro. And yes, a player will almost always know more than an analyst when it comes to cutting edge gameplay knowledge and insight.
Slasher wrote:
@LorangerChris yeah but im not disputing that, just that major tournaments (and i think MLG does it right) only uses casters, never players
HuK wrote:
@Slasher and u have to remember opportunities like this is how people even became casters, like @callmetasteless
Slasher wrote:
@LorangerChris @callmetasteless support the community, help out when needed. This is all a future aspiration for professionalism.
HuK wrote:
@Slasher point is that right now most casters are overpaid, overpraised, and better treated then players, even though some are subpar tbh
Totalbiscuit wrote:
@LorangerChris @Slasher I wouldn't say most to be honest.
Slasher wrote:
@LorangerChris yes, THAT is bullshit. Players need to be paid and more popular than the players.
- The best analytical casters across all games were -former- pro players, as it should be. We'll need another ~7 years for players to retire.
- Er, of course the current top players are more knowledgeable when casting whatever game it is, but they are not 'casters' in my reference.
- Analytical casters aren't the same as play by play/host, which tends to be a tenured journalist (Bob Costas, Marv Albert, Gus Johnson).
- This is still the wild wild west. Multiple leagues, vastly different teams, no unified ruleset, no players union - Do as you please.
TLO wrote:
@LiquidSheth @LorangerChris @Slasher @dapollo haha good stuff! why not right?
LiquidSheth wrote:
Going to be casting some, and commentating. Why not be a player and a commentator?
RotterdaM wrote:
@Slasher @LorangerChris I'll be playing homestory cup qualifiers for what its worth it :
Sorry to anyone left off and sorry for probably missing some of the conversation. However, this should give a good representation of the conversation in general.
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Interesting. I must say I personally side with HuK as well. Besides, where are we gonna find new casting talent if we don't let pros cast, anyway? That's how most of the current casters got into their position!
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Thank you for taking the time to organize this. But I do agree with HuK.
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Not sure if actually stupid, or just stubborn
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I fixed your OP so it doesn't become a burden to read, use quotes please
The following is a somewhat abridged version of a twitter exchange between Slasher, EGHuK, Totalbiscuit and others.
It started with Slasher bemoaning his fate as the victim of Reddit hate threads on the back of his comments about professional SC2 players taking the helm as analytical casters in large SC2 tournaments.
I have removed some of the twitter comments, namely all of the ones from 'random people' as well as ones that I deemed to be peripheral to the discussion. It is also more than likely that I have missed some tweets as re-manufacturing this conversation from Twitter's sadly lacking interface was not simple.
Via Twitter
Slasher wrote:
Wow I got two Reddit hate threads from my comments regarding players casting yesterday. Must say I like "Fuck Slasher... Seriously" better.
HuK wrote:
@Slasher well ur comments were pretty ignorant as usual. if players were smart tho most would transition to casters; its a better job
Slasher wrote:
@LorangerChris I doubt you watched the show so how would you know what I said, unless you're also basing off of misconstrued reddit posts
HuK wrote:
@Slasher so wat exactly did u say then unless what ppl have told me is wrong ?
Slasher wrote:
@LorangerChris Not gonna fit in tweets here honestly but what I said was that I would like to see us/eSports to get to the point that.
- we have a larger separation between between players and casters/journalists, which also lets each focus on their job better
- Artosis, Day, Tasteless, Apollo and Rotterdam are the best analytical casters, whats the last tournament any of them played?
HuK wrote:
@Slasher top lvl players by default are almost always going to be better analytical casters then any of those sorry
- @Slasher and u have to remember opportunities like this is how people even became casters, like @callmetasteless
Slasher wrote:
@LorangerChris I think the opportunity @callmetasteless is great, but whats the last tournament he played in? Players are nice and want to
HuK wrote:
@Slasher @callmetasteless do u know the story of how @callmetasteless started casting?
Slasher wrote:
@LorangerChris yeah but im not disputing that, just that major tournaments (and i think MLG does it right) only uses casters, never players
- @LorangerChris @callmetasteless support the community, help out when needed. This is all a future aspiration for professionalism.
HuK wrote:
@Slasher point is that right now most casters are overpaid, overpraised, and better treated then players, even though some are subpar tbh
Slasher wrote:
@LorangerChris yes, THAT is bullshit. Players need to be paid and more popular than the players.
HuK wrote:
@Slasher that being said casters know their worth more then players, are more business savvy as well; players are dumb that way
dApollo wrote:
@LorangerChris @Slasher though if a player wanted to transition over, they need to be gifted with speech/able to talk a lot with camera etc.
Totalbiscuit wrote:
@slasher @lorangerchris I tend to agree with HuK tbh and I wanted to talk about that more last night. Basically the 2nd generation of analytical casters will be pro-players either doing it part-time or having retired. The current generation of analysts are ex-broodwar pros or in the case of Apollo, ex-CnC pro. And yes, a player will almost always know more than an analyst when it comes to cutting edge gameplay knowledge and insight.
Slasher wrote:
@LorangerChris yeah but im not disputing that, just that major tournaments (and i think MLG does it right) only uses casters, never players
HuK wrote:
@Slasher and u have to remember opportunities like this is how people even became casters, like @callmetasteless
Slasher wrote:
@LorangerChris @callmetasteless support the community, help out when needed. This is all a future aspiration for professionalism.
HuK wrote:
@Slasher point is that right now most casters are overpaid, overpraised, and better treated then players, even though some are subpar tbh
Totalbiscuit wrote:
@LorangerChris @Slasher I wouldn't say most to be honest.
Slasher wrote:
@LorangerChris yes, THAT is bullshit. Players need to be paid and more popular than the players.
- The best analytical casters across all games were -former- pro players, as it should be. We'll need another ~7 years for players to retire.
- Er, of course the current top players are more knowledgeable when casting whatever game it is, but they are not 'casters' in my reference.
- Analytical casters aren't the same as play by play/host, which tends to be a tenured journalist (Bob Costas, Marv Albert, Gus Johnson).
- This is still the wild wild west. Multiple leagues, vastly different teams, no unified ruleset, no players union - Do as you please.
TLO wrote:
@LiquidSheth @LorangerChris @Slasher @dapollo haha good stuff! why not right?
LiquidSheth wrote:
Going to be casting some, and commentating. Why not be a player and a commentator?
RotterdaM wrote:
@Slasher @LorangerChris I'll be playing homestory cup qualifiers for what its worth it :
Sorry to anyone left off and sorry for probably missing some of the conversation. However, this should give a good representation of the conversation in general.
Personally, I am curious to see where this goes.
_____________________
Not part of the OP
HuK has a fair point, there is a lot of emphasis on the casters, I don't know much they get paid, but they are perhaps overpraised or even overacknowledged on whether a game is good or not.
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United Kingdom3249 Posts
Thank you very much for cleaning up my original post Torte de Lini; it reads much better presented in this way.
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edit:
I think with the game being a lot easier to follow and with less narrative needed from the casters, casters should be emphasized a lot less.
As Ex-Pros retire we'll see better casting, yes.
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Well, I can't see a lot of people not siding with HuK, it just seems so much more logical.
Maybe, when more top tier players have retired, we might see a more strict separation between players and casters because there could be a bigger talent pool with deeper knowledge to choose from. Right now, though, gifted analysts are just so rare that an articulate player who's willing to commentate should be more than welcomed because he provides extraordinary analysis we rarely ever get to hear from others.
A separation at the moment just doesn't make sense to me.
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So this is basically a discussion about what qualifies someone to be an "analytical" caster and players casting, right? I have to be honest and say I'm not following this discussion and the fact that it's being held on twitter just makes the debate seem more cluttered to me. If someone could point out Slasher's actual stance on this subject to me in more than 150 characters it would be greatly appreciated.
Anyway, with my marginal understanding of what this is all about I'll just stick to believing this concept:
A caster, whether he/she is analytical or hyping in nature, should be eloquent and understandable in the language he/she is casting in. The language should be somewhat moderated to suit the audience (since one of the casters duties while casting is to keep the audience entertained) and the information a caster relays to the audience should not be longwinded as to stick with the flow of the game. These are the main traits a good caster should posses in my humble opinion.
If I'm correct in believing the original point was that players should leave casting to the casters I'd have to agree to a certain degree. If during a tournament a player wants to occupy himself with casting other matches I'd personally refuse him. Most of the bigger events probably made some effort in acquiring a set of casters who have the skill (in casting) to match the tournament. If for some reason it would be needed to fill a caster slot on very short notice I would probably prefer another caster present over a player. I'm not of the opinion that players are unsuitable for casting, but merely that they might not be able to uphold ALL the standards I personally set for casters.
That said, I am fully aware of the way Tasteless rolled into casting, and I know that some pro out there might walk down that same road one day, but that doesn't mean it is the go-to solution. Any player who wants to develop his casting skills for whatever reason he/she deemes worthy should definitely give it a shot. A major tournament however is not a place I would start. Take TLO for example. He filled in for Tasteless during Dreamhack and brought a lot of knowledge to the castingdesk that gave a better view of a pro-gamer's mindset. However since English is not his native language he sometimes had trouble finding the right words to express his thoughts. This might not seem that troubling since he was still somewhat entertaining as a caster, but it made me, and probably many more, focus a bit too much on what was being said and not enough on what was actually happening.
Since I'm kind of trailing from my point I'll stop with my conclusion: "The players of today are the casters of tomorrow. Even the smartest man needs to learn how to teach before he can pass on his wisdom, the same goes for casting."
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I wish this Slasher Guy would do less things that cause so much annoying Drama.
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Slasher is wrong and he seems like he's scared he'll be out of a job soon. His whole rant sounded more like caster protectionism because of fear of players making them obsolete.
Remember Homestory Cup? That was AWESOME and the casters were almost exclusively players in the tournament itself. They just know the game better than any of the full time casters. Besides, it's not like they are cheating by being a caster, they were going to watch the games anyways, and they can't tell anyone in-game anything either, so there is no reason why a player should be banned from casting while they are an active player, even within the same tournament, assuming they aren't busy playing.
What's pathetic is how so many full time casters STILL don't even know the hotkeys to the different information tabs, and often have no clue about the tournament format of the tournaments they cast. They are mostly the opposite of being more professional than players, which goes against Slasher's argument for professionalism.
Fans also really like players casting, and it's one of the very few things a player can do other than win a tournament to get noticed. As it stands, nobody even knows who most of the players are because the camera is always on the casters. I watched some Broodwar the other day, and the camera is basically never on the casters. Immediately after a win, all it does is show the players' faces to show their emotion, then their ceremonies, etc. In SC2, often times immediately after the game we just get to see the casters until the next game. We're lucky to even see the players at all before the finals.
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Huk wins the argument. Just look at the Proleague - all the casters are former pros. The Proleague is a real esports organization, and they use former pros as casters, virtually exclusively.
I had honestly no idea who slasher was, except as a guy affiliated with MLG, but after seeing some of his stuff, I understand the hate. I can barely stand TotalBiscuit, honestly - he is so wrong, so much of the time. In the recent Dreamhack, his stream was only watchable due to Apollo. But at least TotalBiscuit has some understanding of SC2, he knows that he doesn't know much, and he defers his co-casters like Apollo or Tasteless.
The act of casting is difficult and energy-intensive, but lots of people can do it, including pro-players. Its not like there's a professional school-of-casting where people learn to be so great at casting that everyone else sucks in comparison. The difference is small. The difference in game knowledge between pro players and a gold-ladder caster is enormous. I'd gladly trade that small difference of caster fluency and smoothness for a huge jump in caster accuracy and insight.
I think the current setup is pretty good. Have a play-by-play caster to fill the airtime, and have the analyst/color caster control the camera and provide the in-depth analysis. The play-by-play caster needs lung capacity, dramatic bombast, and enough game knowledge to function, while the analytical caster should be a former/current pro with the knowledge to direct the viewers attention at key points and key decisions that players are making. But it would still be best if both casters were former pros, ala Tastosis.
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Huk wins the argument. Just look at the Proleague - all the casters are former pros. The Proleague is a real esports organization, and they use former pros as casters, virtually exclusively.
Many real sports leauges like NFL, NHL, etc (For america at least) are old pros/coaches commentating the game. Esports should be the same way, they have the most insight why not use it.
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Well the casters are the face of e sports right now, and I think they serve a very important role. Not knowing how much they are paid it is a bit hard to make judgement, but i think casters being paid what they are now is fair enough
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Is this caster centered thing something from the west only? or does it also apply to Korea?
I have no clue on the Korean community, to be honest, but from watching various tournaments, I got to the conclusion:
caster are sitting central on the main stage, booths are off to the side => western tournament (mlg, nasl, dh, ipl)
booths are located centrally on the main stage => korean tournament (i.e. = GSL)
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Casters are pretty damn important in game like Starcraft. During 1 average game of 15minutes, 10 minutes passes by without anything really important and cool going on in a game and casters are there to make these 10 minutes interesting. Without good casters even the best games aren't as good.
I know for sure that I'd rather watch tastosis/day9/any great caster cast some random master ladder games than some really bad caster casting Huk's games.
So yea, since casters are so important for enjoyment of this game I don't think players should be so much above casters at all.
Of course, I'm talking just about really good casters that invest a lot of time in it, not random casters around.
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On November 30 2011 08:18 Xanatoss wrote:
I wish this Slasher Guy would do less things that cause so much annoying Drama.
His show actually covers a lot of ESPORTS news and has guests that generate excellent discussions. It's a shame that one easily misconstrued and ambiguous comment like this get people up in arms and blind them to the other content that comes out of his show. It's such an inane topic anyway.
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-- changed mind on this, play-by-play full-time casters have their value --
The current crop of casters are entirely made up of people not good at the game, and who therefore are wrong about so much of the things they say about the game, and who barely take their job seriously because they can't even remember the hotkeys for the resource tab and production tab. It's more about making jokes and either hyping up a player ridiculously or tearing down a player to the extreme. It would benefit their cast to add guest players to provide better analysis.
Players can be funny AND analytical, and with a rotation of players doing the casting, all the players will gain exposure and popularity so they can start to develop a fanbase.
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On November 30 2011 08:24 shindigs wrote:Show nested quote +On November 30 2011 08:18 Xanatoss wrote:
I wish this Slasher Guy would do less things that cause so much annoying Drama. His show actually covers a lot of ESPORTS news and has guests that generate excellent discussions. It's a shame that one easily misconstrued and ambiguous comment like this get people up in arms and blind them to the other content that comes out of his show. It's such an inane topic anyway.
The point is I really dont bother about Slashers ambitions but everytime I read his name its connected to either a very controversial discussion or plain stupid drama. And I get really tired of this.
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On November 30 2011 08:24 JustPassingBy wrote:
Is this caster centered thing something from the west only? or does it also apply to Korea?
I have no clue on the Korean community, to be honest, but from watching various tournaments, I got to the conclusion:
caster are sitting central on the main stage, booths are off to the side => western tournament (mlg, nasl, dh, ipl)
booths are located centrally on the main stage => korean tournament (i.e. = GSL)
In Korea, all the casters were former pro players that achieved significant success, and the emphasis is definitely on the players not the casters. The camera spends way more time on the players than they do in Western events, which are almost entirely caster dominated.
You can watch several MLG's and at the end of the day, have no idea what Slush or Sjow look like despite consistent moderate performance. However, if they were casting during their off times, we would know who they are and provide better analysis than any of the full-time casters.
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EPT
