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Keep the discussion civil, please. |
On November 30 2011 09:22 Nemireck wrote:Show nested quote +On November 30 2011 08:46 Zzoram wrote:
Wouldn't MLG be so much better if instead of pairing Day9 with djWheat (who barely knows the game), he got paired with championship bracket players that were either not playing yet, or already eliminated? If say, Idra vs MC was casted by Day9 + Ret + Naniwa, HerO vs Leenock was casted by Day9 + Socke + Idra, and MVP vs MMA was casted by Day9 + DeMuslim + Thorzain? Day9 could provide the color commentary, and the two players, one of each race representing the players in the game being casted, could provide the insightful high level analysis and current metagame explanation.
That seems to me like it would be the ideal future of casting. 1 full-time caster that's play-by-play and humor combined with 2 guest high level players for the analysis and so we can get to know the players better so the players can get more fans. 1) The players should be paid for their services if they take on a casting role during a tournament. 2) If an active player is going to take on any form of casting role, they should be eliminated from the tournament. I don't know if you understand just how much of a hassle it would be for the players to have to run around in between games to cast other games. A lot of the time these guys are doing everything they can just to find 10 minutes to eat their LUNCH in between games. I actually question just how many players would actually WANT to be involved in the casting during a tournament that they're playing. 3) Slasher is arguing for the exact same thing that many people in this thread continue to point out. That former players should be filling the casting jobs. That's how it's done in pro-league, and that's how it should be done. Where I would disagree with him is the situation where a player was eliminated earlier in the tournament, or doesn't have any more scheduled games for the day. Then let's get the player on there if they want to! But that said, when was the last time you saw Jaedong, Flash or Bisu cast a live game? 4) During the specific conversation being discussed, Mr Bitter wasn't specifically arguing that active players should be casting the games live. His specific point was that a player or two should be "on the couch" for the analysis between games. Which I think is a fantastic idea. Sports programs use active coaches and players all time for half-time analysis, which is essentially what "the couch" was being used for. It's noteworthy though, that sports programs do this during the playoffs, and they only bring on coaches and players that have already been eliminated from competition. You're not going to get Derek Jeter on your show to do half-time analysis on Tuesday, when he has a game coming up on Wednesday. But if it's the second-round of the playoffs and the Yankees were bumped in round 1. It's absolutely a legitimate possibility.
Good points. I think this would be an acceptable middle ground.
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There are a lot a figures in the whole E-Sports community that are true ambassadors of the art of gaming and people that can only do us good based on their role, performances and professionalism.
However, it saddens me to see the other side of things, and unfortunately, it's exactly the "dark side" that will keep E-Sports from taking the next step. I just listened to a group of personalities of the game counting down to shout out loud "F*CK Slasher" and encouraging the community to do the same via the social networks.
Not to take any sides here, but these case is a pure example of the broken train that is the E-Sports community at the moment. Having guys using the expression "f*cking baller" in a broadcast is not going to attract new populations. Having shows were casters go 100% of the time talking like they were off the record is not helping either.
Until the most notable personalities of the game take a more responsible and professional approach to things, there's not going forward.
Sad... but true.
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Casting requires a completely, COMPLETELY different set of skills than playing. Also, everyone seems to keep forgetting just how small a percentage masters and higher ranked people are compared to the entire SC fan and playerbase, and realistically, NO ONE who is below high masters will benefit from extremely precise metagame analyses and predictions much more than he will from "MACRO BETTER PLX KTNXBAI".
It may be hard to comprehend because TL's kind of an "elite" environment (and I mean that in the absolutely best possible way, in fact, I'd say that that "elitism" is exactly what lets TL shine and be the best goddamn community in the universe  ) where the average skill level is probably way, WAY above a "common" average SC2 player, but the truth is, like TB said, people who demand high level analysis both in Starcraft and in other sports ARE more or less a niche audience. The fact that we (the TL community) have extremely high standards - the exact thing that makes TL special - means that we often forget we are the huge minority, at least purely number-wise.
It may be COOL for your average Silver, Gold, even a Diamond league player to hear and know about all that stuff, but he won't have much use for it, and for literally >95% of people, entertainment value is the #1 factor when watching streams. If you can mix both it and high level analysis (Tastosis, Day9), more power to you, and those casters truly are the best of the best, but if you have to pick, I'd say MOST people (not necessarily saying "most people from TL", mind you) would go with entertainment value.
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I actually don't think players know more about the game than casters. I feel that is a common misconception. Casters see thousands of games from a top-down perspective. Players have only their limited experience.
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This seems like a stupid topic for Slasher & Huk to throw back and forth at each other via twitter. but i guess that's what twitter was created for.
Huk go on <whatever slashers show is called> and debate him. Or slasher go on SOTG and debate Huk there. It doesn't matter how much you know. It matters how well you can convey that information. Honestly TB is not a great caster/analysis (he even admits that); but he knows how to talk to a crowd and keep things entertaining. And what's the purpose of esports? 1) give a platform for participants to compete against one another to win cash and prizes. 2) give a platform for spectators to be entertained.
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On November 30 2011 09:35 kiy0 wrote:
There are a lot a figures in the whole E-Sports community that are true ambassadors of the art of gaming and people that can only do us good based on their role, performances and professionalism.
However, it saddens me to see the other side of things, and unfortunately, it's exactly the "dark side" that will keep E-Sports from taking the next step. I just listened to a group of personalities of the game counting down to shout out loud "F*CK Slasher" and encouraging the community to do the same via the social networks.
Not to take any sides here, but these case is a pure example of the broken train that is the E-Sports community at the moment. Having guys using the expression "f*cking baller" in a broadcast is not going to attract new populations. Having shows were casters go 100% of the time talking like they were off the record is not helping either.
Until the most notable personalities of the game take a more responsible and professional approach to things, there's not going forward.
Sad... but true.
Swearing reeks of immaturity and is perceived as such by the rest of society but this is the internet, it'll take a long time to get people to clean up their language and be truly professional.
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nothing like stirring up some controversial junk to increase viewership of his own show..................
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All this talking about lesser ranked players being less able to understand more analytical commentary is really a misconception, for me. There are a lot of players (me included, I most say), that aren't in Masters or GM but understand the game a lot, due to the huge amount of hours invested watching the game. We only don't have the mechanical ability to reproduce these strategies.
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On November 30 2011 09:41 Lore-Fighting wrote:
I actually don't think players know more about the game than casters. I feel that is a common misconception. Casters see thousands of games from a top-down perspective. Players have only their limited experience.
I think just the inverse of that is true.
In order to be a good player, you not only have to watch a ton of games from the top down perspective, but you have to watch them with huge personal interest. For casters, stating the concepts and problems is enough. For players, understanding the concepts and solving the problems means they keep their job. Players watch tons of replays with no energy spent on how their talking about the game will provide entertainment for a crowd, it is purely studious. Players will have first hand experience on the possibilities, limitations, and nuances in all circumstances- the caster's perspective is limited to top down, the player has extensive experience with both.
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On November 30 2011 09:47 Kamikazess wrote:
All this talking about lesser ranked players being less able to understand more analytical commentary is really a misconception, for me. There are a lot of players (me included, I most say), that aren't in Masters or GM but understand the game a lot, due to the huge amount of hours invested watching the game. We only don't have the mechanical ability to reproduce these strategies.
That's what every lower league player thinks about themselves and it's very rarely true. If you really have a good understanding of the game, you can easily hit Masters with ~40 APM, no problem. It's easy for everyone to be an armchair general, but when you actually have to remember to, for example, scout at a right time, and know EXACTLY how to react without Artosis explaining it to you, then it becomes a problem. At below high masters, building that Barracks 5 or even 10 seconds too late doesn't mean jack shit.
Nothing to do with mechanics, everything to do with decision making and actually understanding the game.
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HuK wrote:
@Slasher point is that right now most casters are overpaid, overpraised, and better treated then players, even though some are subpar tbh
This point really annoys me tbh, when I watch a cast from a large tournament that is paying its casters a salary and the caster knows wayyyy less then me and most masters players be in it an analytical or a play by play roll I feel pissed that they have done nothing in terms of working at learning the game to get that amazing opportunity.
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It seems like every other week Slasher gets pissed about something. But that's why he has a show!
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Huk says casters are overpaid and treated better than players, eh?
So what about that whole life changing money we kept hearing about when he went to EG? What about how in every interview he talks about how he's babied so he can completely focus on the game? Grass is greener on the other side I guess. If you're a player, you should be focusing on how to win. Not worrying about who's casting and who isn't.
Unless this whole SC2 as an eSport is a total farce and is all about the money instead of being the best.
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On November 30 2011 09:47 Kamikazess wrote:
All this talking about lesser ranked players being less able to understand more analytical commentary is really a misconception, for me. There are a lot of players (me included, I most say), that aren't in Masters or GM but understand the game a lot, due to the huge amount of hours invested watching the game. We only don't have the mechanical ability to reproduce these strategies.
Not to don the robe and gavel, but I strongly suspect that if you put the effort in to try to execute, you'd come to find that you don't actually understand nearly as much as you think you do.
In bw, I thought I understood, but didn't play enough. Understanding sc2 quite a bit better and looking back, I realize that I actually didn't know shit about bw.
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On November 30 2011 09:47 Kamikazess wrote:
All this talking about lesser ranked players being less able to understand more analytical commentary is really a misconception, for me. There are a lot of players (me included, I most say), that aren't in Masters or GM but understand the game a lot, due to the huge amount of hours invested watching the game. We only don't have the mechanical ability to reproduce these strategies.
In part this is true, but in otherways it's not.
I was listening to Tyler talk about elfy vs idra post IEM on state of the game and his statements about how what elfy did wrong made me realise that I don't know shit.
But the otherside of that coin is that tasteless and artosis cast every code s game. They do not need to be code s level players because they watch and disucuss every single code s game. They are like a judging panel which every top tier player presents their best game to weekly. They probably have the best theoretical grasp of TvT in the western world.
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I love the fact that Slashers only argument for this debate was "separation of pros and commentators equals higher levels of professionalism", This is one reason I LOVE the fighting game community, they haven't been completely tainted by the push for PROFESSIONAL ESPORT GAMING 2K12.
That said slasher has done this since the dawn of time so I'm not sure why im suprised.
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On November 30 2011 09:53 Plague1503 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 30 2011 09:47 Kamikazess wrote:
All this talking about lesser ranked players being less able to understand more analytical commentary is really a misconception, for me. There are a lot of players (me included, I most say), that aren't in Masters or GM but understand the game a lot, due to the huge amount of hours invested watching the game. We only don't have the mechanical ability to reproduce these strategies. That's what every lower league player thinks about themselves and it's very rarely true. If you really have a good understanding of the game, you can easily hit Masters with ~40 APM, no problem. It's easy for everyone to be an armchair general, but when you actually have to remember to, for example, scout at a right time, and know EXACTLY how to react without Artosis explaining it to you, then it becomes a problem. At below high masters, building that Barracks 5 or even 10 seconds too late doesn't mean jack shit. Nothing to do with mechanics, everything to do with decision making and actually understanding the game.
Every example you used is related to mechanics. Mechanics isn't only high APM, it's my entire execution, timings, etc.
When I say "understand the game", is to know the reasoning behind the decisions, behind the movements in the battlefield, behind the build orders. As I said, it's to know, not to execute.
And, no, executing isn't only a matter of knowing when/how.
Just to clarify, I'm not saying that I have a great understanding of the game. Absolutely not! This is the reason (along with entertainment), that make me watch streams and VODs everyday. But, I really think my skill level when playing isn't directly related to my knowledge.
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On November 30 2011 09:56 Jerglings wrote:
Huk says casters are overpaid and treated better than players, eh?
So what about that whole life changing money we kept hearing about when he went to EG? What about how in every interview he talks about how he's babied so he can completely focus on the game? Grass is greener on the other side I guess. If you're a player, you should be focusing on how to win. Not worrying about who's casting and who isn't.
Unless this whole SC2 as an eSport is a total farce and is all about the money instead of being the best.
I think huk is talking about "players" not just himself. It's possible to do things like that.
You don't have to set your own house on fire before you're allowed to help your neighbour with their burning home.
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On November 30 2011 10:00 Kamikazess wrote:Just to clarify, I'm not saying that I have a great understanding of the game. Absolutely not! This is the reason (along with entertainment), that make me watch streams and VODs everyday. But, I really think my skill level when playing isn't directly related to my knowledge.
What I am saying is that people very often overvalue their knowledge when it's being handed to them on a silver platter. When Day9 says "yeah unsieging those tanks and pulling out right there is the exact thing XY needed to do", EVERYONE will say "yeah ofc that makes sense", but I can bet that if you took a random VOD of a, for example, GSL game you never saw before, paused and asked yourself "okay so what SHOULD this guy do now" , you would be either completely stumped or terribly, terribly wrong about what he actually does.
tl;dr it's easy to "understand" the game when someone is explaining it to you, not so easy when you actually have to make educated guesses and predictions using your knowledge.
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On November 30 2011 09:56 Jerglings wrote:
Huk says casters are overpaid and treated better than players, eh?
So what about that whole life changing money we kept hearing about when he went to EG? What about how in every interview he talks about how he's babied so he can completely focus on the game? Grass is greener on the other side I guess. If you're a player, you should be focusing on how to win. Not worrying about who's casting and who isn't.
Unless this whole SC2 as an eSport is a total farce and is all about the money instead of being the best.
Um he's basically the only player paid a good salary, other than maybe Idra.
He's not wrong to say players aren't treated well at tournaments. They don't even get a break to eat food or go to the washroom at MLG open bracket without risking disqualification. It's hard for players to play their best and compete if they're hungry and have to pee.
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EPT
