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Keep the discussion civil, please. |
On January 05 2012 01:24 MorroW wrote:
i think casters also get generally more paid because there are very few casters out there, while on the other hand if u look at players, there are like 100 times more of them.
so tournament organisators obviously want, the best players and the best casters. but since there are so few casters out there, these are much harder to grab than great players.
and because there are so few good casters out there, they can pretty much ask for a shitload of money from the tournaments for them to actually cast it.
when you watch football, theres not a whole lot of explaining needed to do by the casters. the viewers pretty much can see whats going on with their own eyes and be amazed by the players and teams.
but in sc2, since this game is alot more complex than football or any other sport, the caster role is suddenly alot more important. the viewers in general prefer great casters casting good players rather than good casters casting great players for this reason.
when you think about it it makes complete sense that the casters make alot more money than the players in general. weather its ideal or not is a different story.
I think that these 3 paragraphs are the most logical and reasonable answers on why casters make more money at this current juncture. SC2 is new "sport" for a lot of people myself included. Traditional sports I grew up and played in my youth basketball,baseball,football,hockey etc. I could talk your ear off about why this linebacker was able to blitz in untouched doing a stunt or how to explain by the motion of a pitch whether it was a curve or slider etc.. and technically be a "commentator". With SC2 people like myself dont always understand the timings of builds the reason player x reacts to what he scouts at the 5minute mark from player y. So a caster who is able to dumb it down for us noobs is absolutely necessary. The more you watch/listen the more you learn
I would only imagine in a few years that the roles will be reversed as they should be. Players seem to work very very hard for years to fine tune their builds and execution. And I get it why some are mad that they can go to a tournament and win it but they don't get half as much as the person who just commented their games. Unfortunately it has to be this way for the time being.
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On January 06 2012 02:08 TotalBiscuit wrote:I deserve it. But I don't regret it. That was more satisfying than it had any right to be. User was temp banned for this post.
On January 06 2012 02:12 TotalBiscuit wrote:
Please give me a ban as well btw. I do deserve it and clearly broke the forum rules on multiple occasions. Don't want any special treatment.
Can anyone reading this not instantly see something horribly wrong here? This is just laughable coming from someone that is supposed to be considered "professional". If anything hes just revealing his true nature, as a large attention starved sweaty man child, who places all his self worth in a community that largely loathes him for his inability to recognize what he is seeing on his computer screen. The only thing entertaining about you is how you think you are worth something in someone elses eyes besides your own.
Please mods, no special treatment! I did what I did because im professional and it was satisfying, not because I have anger problems and am approaching my mid-life crisis.
P.S. you are large
edit: I want steff to meet you at a lan and be a 7 foot tall body builder so when he comes up to you, you can give the same look to him as you give while you are scrambling to find the closest morsel of food at 3am, a look of pure frantic excitement as you look around for the closest exit. Just imagining all 300 pounds of you moving that fast brings a smile to my face.
User was temp banned for this post.
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Honestly, I don't care about some "analytic" caster that still gets everything wrong half the time, but is too arrogant to know or acknowledge it. And I don't need a caster that tells me how bad a player that could destroy him 100/100 times is or how stupid that build that he (the caster who is probably high diamond) couldn't even pull off was. I would prefer a guy with some charisma and charm like Husky, who still manages to "get it right" half the time and somehow manages to not talk shit on players or styles and end up looking stupid later in the match.
Also, I know four or five people wouldn't even care about competitive SC if it wasn't for Husky or HD. They bring outsiders in, and thus reap the rewards of that. I don't know why it's any concern of the players what anyone else makes, though. Who cares what someone else makes? How does that make what you make any less or more?
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The simple truth of the matter is that tournaments are doing the right thing by overpaying the "celebrity" casters. SC2 is not entertaining enough by itself to support investing in the prize pool/players so the average game quality increases - no such investment will bring more viewers than shelling out 20k for Day9 or Tastosis. This can most easily be seen in the ESV Korean Weekly, which has better games than almost any foreigner-only tournament, but it's online and doesn't have popular casters, so it gets less viewers than the most popular player streams. Meanwhile, Day9 gets 16k viewers casting team monobattles or playing Skyrim.
Tournaments do what they should be doing, it's the viewers/scene that need to change. Alternatively, the game needs to become better, but we all know how probable that is given the HotS preview...
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The current set up has the casters being the face of the tournament, and I don't see that changing for quite some time. Players pop in and out during their matches, so even if a player goes to the final, he probably won't get more than 10% of the air time that a casters get. Meanwhile, a caster would probably get 30-50% of the air time that the entire tournament has.
If players would cast, in a large tournament, they would take time from resting, watching replays and basically getting ready for the next match. Furthermore, it makes it extremely difficult for the tournament organizer to get casters. Players A made it though, but Player B did not, and Player B is in a bad mood cause of bad loss, etc. Since you don't really know who is casting and who is not, the quality of the cast is not a known quantity. Even if you don't like TB, you know what you are getting. It would be a nightmare for organizers to attempt to get player-casters to work the schedule. Much easier to get casters to do that job.
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This is a crazy issue, I think in general everyone tunes in to tournaments for the players. On the other hand I'm sure there are others out there like myself who also will avoid a stream because of who's casting it, in the larger scope of things i agree with Huk the players would be far better casters, and the players don't get nearly the amount of respect and attention that they should.
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If organizations want to pay casters well, or not pay players well enough, it's entirely their perrogative to do so. It's not some sort of huge burden on the spectators that this is happening, so why bother even bringing it up?
Is it ideal for players? Probably not. But in the end, you gotta remember that all of this is revolving around a VIDEO GAME. Do I wish video games were as relevant as athletic sports? Of course I do! I love video games, and I don't play sports. But the fact remains, they aren't the same.
E-"Sports" is an entriely different beast altogether, and doesn't have to be modelled after existing paradigms because it is its own thing. Casters make more than players... it ain't ideal, but it's reality. No sense in getting riled up over it.
And anyone who argues that players wouldn't make better casters than non-players need to check themselves. It's practically axiomatic.
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It comes down to this: who is more important for the success of an event/esports? The players or the casters? The casters. Duh. Personally I can't stand watching games with bad casting, no matter who's playing. What's the worst part of any tournament? When they drag the socially awkward progamer teens out of their booths and shove them in front of a camera up on stage next to some rented big-breasted booth babe and shine a light in their face. Shit is awkward as hell. What's the best part? Whenever tastosis speak. I wouldn't watch starcraft2 games if it weren't for the casters. Throw money on them. They deserve it, they're the reason this whole scene exists. Not the guys who made a career out of playing video games all day
Disclaimer: not hating on progamers, just saying the casters are way more important and deserve their higher pay/status.
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And anyone who argues that players wouldn't make better casters than non-players need to check themselves. It's practically axiomatic.
Players may or may not make better casters than the casters themselves. If you've got a player who is a huge curmudgeon, with a high, nasally voice, and has the charisma of a dead goat, then he's not going to be a better caster. If you've got a player who is very charismatic, very passionate, and quite knowledgeable, than he might be a good caster. He might not be better, but he might be pretty damn good.
The problem with saying one group is "better" or will be "better" is in how you define better. Realize that your "better" is not my "better". You may love Artosis and hate Husky. I may despise Artosis and love Husky. (I like both of them). We both may hate Tasteless and some other guy loves him. (I like Tasteless). We will all have different reasons for why we like the one's we like. You like this guys humor and I like this guys casting voice. You like this guy's knowledge and I like this other guy's stories or attitude.
Now, if you mean by "better": "more popular and successful". Then it gets tough. Following the model of other professional sports, retired players will become the more popular and successful casters. Many of them will be more popular and successful as casters than they ever were as players. Some of the greatest players will be called terrible "casters" and won't be popular at all. But this is not like other sports. Even a non-professional player can still play the game at a higher level than 90% of his potential audience with this game (I think Husky is diamond, that's higher than most).
Basically, the point is: some players will definitely be casters. The most skilled and knowledgeable player may not necessarily be the best caster. Everyone's definition for "best caster" is different. Stop trying to force everyone into your own way of thinking. There is no one objectively best type of caster.
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On January 06 2012 06:26 Rob28 wrote:
And anyone who argues that players wouldn't make better casters than non-players need to check themselves. It's practically axiomatic.
Basically the same kind of thinking that says that someone who's good at math is also automatically good at teaching math. Doesn't work that way.
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On January 06 2012 06:32 Osmoses wrote:
It comes down to this: who is more important for the success of an event/esports? The players or the casters? The casters. Duh. Personally I can't stand watching games with bad casting, no matter who's playing. What's the worst part of any tournament? When they drag the socially awkward progamer teens out of their booths and shove them in front of a camera up on stage next to some rented big-breasted booth babe and shine a light in their face. Shit is awkward as hell. What's the best part? Whenever tastosis speak. I wouldn't watch starcraft2 games if it weren't for the casters. Throw money on them. They deserve it, they're the reason this whole scene exists. Not the guys who made a career out of playing video games all day
Disclaimer: not hating on progamers, just saying the casters are way more important and deserve their higher pay/status.
Frankly, people who have attitudes like you are the problem imo. Don't take that as a slight, you are entitled to your opinion, I just think if the majority of people are like you SC2 will always be a niche game. People don't watch football games for the casting. If SC2 really wants to be a sport the primary draw has to be the gameplay and players not the casters. Hell I think Moletrap is terrible but I still watch GSL games that he casts because I want to see the games and players.
A large part of the reason casters are the big draw is a failure on the casters to tell a story about the players, help us get to know them better, tell us what their stats are on that map and against that race should be the bare minimum. Yet they rarely if ever do this (Wheat is really the only one I see doing this on a regular basis). If the casters build up the players and their personalties better than the players and the gameplay can be competing draws with caster appeal.
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On January 06 2012 05:20 Mewnfare wrote:Show nested quote +On January 06 2012 02:08 TotalBiscuit wrote:On January 06 2012 02:07 Xxio wrote:
Bans incoming. I deserve it. But I don't regret it. That was more satisfying than it had any right to be. User was temp banned for this post. Show nested quote +On January 06 2012 02:12 TotalBiscuit wrote:
Please give me a ban as well btw. I do deserve it and clearly broke the forum rules on multiple occasions. Don't want any special treatment. + Show Spoiler +
Can anyone reading this not instantly see something horribly wrong here? This is just laughable coming from someone that is supposed to be considered "professional". If anything hes just revealing his true nature, as a large attention starved sweaty man child, who places all his self worth in a community that largely loathes him for his inability to recognize what he is seeing on his computer screen. The only thing entertaining about you is how you think you are worth something in someone elses eyes besides your own.
Please mods, no special treatment! I did what I did because im professional and it was satisfying, not because I have anger problems and am approaching my mid-life crisis.
P.S. you are large
edit: I want steff to meet you at a lan and be a 7 foot tall body builder so when he comes up to you, you can give the same look to him as you give while you are scrambling to find the closest morsel of food at 3am, a look of pure frantic excitement as you look around for the closest exit. Just imagining all 300 pounds of you moving that fast brings a smile to my face.
What's up with all the low post count people bashing on TB in this thread lol. Go argue somewhere else
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i have no problem with casting progamers, more the better.
i'm more worried about casters continuing to cast while i think they dont deserve the job (wrong info, bias, bad casting habits), regardless of their status.
i'm not talking about HD or husky type, they're doing their own thing but when you're casting for GSL/MLG/DH or some other organization, there should be standards on "good caster" based on their knowledge and personality, not on popularity.
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On January 06 2012 07:25 Linwelin wrote:Show nested quote +On January 06 2012 05:20 Mewnfare wrote:On January 06 2012 02:08 TotalBiscuit wrote:On January 06 2012 02:07 Xxio wrote:
Bans incoming. I deserve it. But I don't regret it. That was more satisfying than it had any right to be. User was temp banned for this post. On January 06 2012 02:12 TotalBiscuit wrote:
Please give me a ban as well btw. I do deserve it and clearly broke the forum rules on multiple occasions. Don't want any special treatment. + Show Spoiler +
Can anyone reading this not instantly see something horribly wrong here? This is just laughable coming from someone that is supposed to be considered "professional". If anything hes just revealing his true nature, as a large attention starved sweaty man child, who places all his self worth in a community that largely loathes him for his inability to recognize what he is seeing on his computer screen. The only thing entertaining about you is how you think you are worth something in someone elses eyes besides your own.
Please mods, no special treatment! I did what I did because im professional and it was satisfying, not because I have anger problems and am approaching my mid-life crisis.
P.S. you are large
edit: I want steff to meet you at a lan and be a 7 foot tall body builder so when he comes up to you, you can give the same look to him as you give while you are scrambling to find the closest morsel of food at 3am, a look of pure frantic excitement as you look around for the closest exit. Just imagining all 300 pounds of you moving that fast brings a smile to my face.
What's up with all the low post count people bashing on TB in this thread lol. Go argue somewhere else
Maybe they thought they could poke his ego, which worked.
And if you look at HSC, most of these guys don't even speak English as their native language, and don't cast, and are doing a much better job than a lot of "professional" casters do. It's much more enjoyable to have players giving insight and assuming you can use your own eyes. They make the content, and they can provide the entertainment both in the game and outside it through commentary as well.
What's even better is when you get someone like Thorzain getting asked a question about the game, and saying "sorry, I was too busy focusing on observing".
That's what you ideally should have IMO. People who know how to observe well, people who know things about the game.
And you can't say Cloud poking fun at Goody all series long in the TvT just cased in HSC wasn't entertaining.
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some analytical casters take it too far, Apollo for example. I want to watch the game and not listen to him predict every movement and action of the players. He always says what the players should be doing or what they are gonna do and they always prove him wrong. analytical caster need to cast the game and not predict it and show off their "knowledge" of the game.
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But when Apollo is doing that he IS casting the game. Unfortunately for us the fact that Apollo casts top players means they aren't going to do the most obvious tech route/build order being read by the casters (which is read better by their opponent but hopefully not way better). If Apollo was put in a situation where the players he's casting aren't top level, they'll be less creative with their builds, know less smooth transitions/tech routes etc.
I'd rather a caster be smart enough to deduce what a player could do from what he sees and be wrong when the player tricks him (and maybe his opponent), then the caster just not guess at all and commentate worker harassment or talk about other nonsensical shit that isn't relevant past the next 3 seconds. So many casters seem like they're afraid to stop talking. Casters please, you can shut up sometimes. You're paid to talk just like players are paid to play, but they don't queue for ladder in between games to show the crowd their fancy new cheese.
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On January 06 2012 05:14 lvent wrote:Show nested quote +On January 05 2012 01:24 MorroW wrote:
i think casters also get generally more paid because there are very few casters out there, while on the other hand if u look at players, there are like 100 times more of them.
so tournament organisators obviously want, the best players and the best casters. but since there are so few casters out there, these are much harder to grab than great players.
and because there are so few good casters out there, they can pretty much ask for a shitload of money from the tournaments for them to actually cast it.
when you watch football, theres not a whole lot of explaining needed to do by the casters. the viewers pretty much can see whats going on with their own eyes and be amazed by the players and teams.
but in sc2, since this game is alot more complex than football or any other sport, the caster role is suddenly alot more important. the viewers in general prefer great casters casting good players rather than good casters casting great players for this reason.
when you think about it it makes complete sense that the casters make alot more money than the players in general. weather its ideal or not is a different story.
I think that these 3 paragraphs are the most logical and reasonable answers on why casters make more money at this current juncture. SC2 is new "sport" for a lot of people myself included. Traditional sports I grew up and played in my youth basketball,baseball,football,hockey etc. I could talk your ear off about why this linebacker was able to blitz in untouched doing a stunt or how to explain by the motion of a pitch whether it was a curve or slider etc.. and technically be a "commentator". With SC2 people like myself dont always understand the timings of builds the reason player x reacts to what he scouts at the 5minute mark from player y. So a caster who is able to dumb it down for us noobs is absolutely necessary. The more you watch/listen the more you learn I would only imagine in a few years that the roles will be reversed as they should be. Players seem to work very very hard for years to fine tune their builds and execution. And I get it why some are mad that they can go to a tournament and win it but they don't get half as much as the person who just commented their games. Unfortunately it has to be this way for the time being.
I totally agree with Morrow on this. You see there's this belief that you need Artosis or Day9 to be at event, for it to be successful, because no one comes close to their casting abilities in this small pool of casters we have. I feel this should change as the sports grows older and we get more people becoming dedicated caster. Instead of events going, Eh let's just be safe and fly those guys from korea to cast, they'll be like Eh, doesn't so and so live right across the corner? Let's get him to do it!
I also think the caster bashing here is bullshit, if you're unhappy with the caster you should give constructive feedback to him in his thread, not go on about how 'fake' he is or him being in it just for the money.
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You can hate TotalBiscuit all you want, but he did bring new adience to SC2. I know a few people who are very casual at SC2, and they all prefer TB's commentary over Day9's (I tried to make them watch dailies, but they didn't like to watch "that nerdy face" all the time). I personally would much prefer watching TB with analitical co-caster. In fact, my favorite comba is Day9+Husky (I think not enough people appreciate how good they mesh together)
You can also riot about the top caster's payings all you want, but casters do bring audience to tournaments. At this point we have high level tournaments too often, and it comes to quality of casting and production when I have to choose which I will follow. Hell, MLG might be at the worst time of day for me, but I would be most excited by it, if it has Day9+Husky and Tastosis at the same time, as both pairs are really great to watch.
Homestory Cup is great to watch pro players having fun and getting to know them better. It's great for getting more game knowledge. It's great for seeing more players in the spotlight on the stream. But it cannot be a recipe for every tournament. When I linked a HSC stream to one of my friends, he said "Who are these ugly non-expressive people on the stream?" (Yes, he is a fan of TotalBiscuit. And Idra. You can't really call any of them non-expressive, do you?)
Fact is, most pro players have steady income from their team's payment and occasional tournament winnings. Caster have only occasional payoff by a tournament. It's not really tournament's task to bring steady income to all the participating players. The tournaments should however bring enough exposure to participants, and they also need to pay their casters.
Now, what I'm trying to say, is there really is no reason why you should make all that fuss about tournaments paying casters this and players that. It's a competitive enviroment! There are much more tournaments that any player can really participate in. It's up to player and his management to decide which tournaments are good for their exposure (again, for player's team it's not about the winnings, it's about exposure). It's up to caster to decide if tournament pays good enough to come and stay sleep deprived for 3-4 days. All of it is not up to people who have nothing better to do than argue on forums. Tournaments understand this, and they do what they need to attract good players and good casters.
It might actually be a good idea for tournaments to have additional paid streams with analytical casters only (and yes, players would be great at this, fuck Slasher*). But this is still a niche demand in terms of viewers, no matter how many TB hate forum posts are there.
* See, I actually have something on actualy topic of this thread, unlike most posts there!
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Guess why foreigners still watch Brood War games (Hint: It's not because of the Korean casting)
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EPT
