I want to talk a little bit about the new unit they've shown for Heart of the Swarm, the Swarm Host.
This is the Swarm Host in action.
It's supposed to be the burrowed unit with an attack that we all wanted. I think this is great, but there are some things about it that concern me just a little.
It seems to me like the Swarm host is too much like other Zerg units. People have mentioned the Brood Lord. I think to some extent, the Brood Lord is pretty close to this in concept, but I thought of another unit: The Infestor.
The Infestor can burrow and launch Infested Terrans. Infested Terrans are a timed life unit, like the Locusts the Swarm Host launches.
The player can choose where to launch the Infested Terran as well, giving more control over it. You have the ability to launch one over a cliff or a building, whereas the Swarm Host will only be useful in an open area, because the Locusts (I assume) have to walk around everything.
You also get more control because you can choose when to build them and how many. The energy cost allows you to store up many and launch them all at once, or you can choose to use just enough to take out a dropship or something.
The Infested Terrans have a ranged attack so they can hit air as well as other units at a distance.
In addition, the Infestor can move while burrowed.
And we can't forget, the Infestor can unburrow and use some other very strong spells as well.
All in all, I think the Infestor just has much more utility as well as being able to do everything the Swarm Host does. It's not a very effective use of Infestor energy, so we don't see it in play.
So it's not like the two units (as well as the Brood Lord) can't exist side by side, because they can be used for different things, but I think it would be even better to change the attack of the Swarm Host in some way to make it less like the other units. More diversity would be more fun and interesting, good from a spectator perspective, etc.
I would say they're having a hard time balancing this unit between "Free Units = Too Strong" and "Low Damage Output=Too Weak."
I think this concept of throwing free units at the opponent works better on the Hive Tech units (Brood Lords,) because they can get away with having some ridiculous damage output as well.
With such long recharge time and low damage output, I don't really get the "swarm" feel I should. Dustin Browder says "Slow, methodical grind" but that doesn't seem to be consistent with "swarm" to me.
Obviously they will be adjusting all the numbers for balance, but I think adjusting it in a more extreme way, not just basic numbers, would be good.
I'm wondering if Locusts move faster on creep. Broodlings don't, but they hover off the ground. These guys look like they walk, so I would guess they do move faster on creep. That would be very interesting, it would make them stronger at defending than attacking.
I don't want to go into a lot of detail about the idea I had. It's just a way I thought in might make it better. Blizzard says they're open to suggestions, so since I did think of this, I guess I will post it on the bnet forums. I thought I'd share it here as well to see what everyone thought.
With the removal of the carrier, maybe it could be a little more carrier-like. The Locusts could be more locust-like, something like a melee Interceptor I guess.
They could fly out and stay until dying or the Swarm Host unburrows, and they could be replaces by an autospell like on the Carrier.
They should of course have a different flight pattern than interceptors, something less geometric, more swarm-like.
I guess there would be a maximum of 6, which is I think the number of holes on the back of the Swarm Host.
Whether or not you'd pay for them would depend. They could be free, and this would line up with the current Swarm Host (probably a good idea,) as well as make it less like the carrier. This is a lower tier unit, as well, and having them for free makes more sense. On the other hand, getting to dump some minerals here, where there is no larva cost, could be helpful. I'd probably make them stay free, though.
the broodlord and infestor are probably the two zerg units i like the most to use because they are fun, so i wouldn't mind having another unit that works in a similar way but has a different utility
I'ts not same role as infestor. You come near opponent base and burrow in range few of them and they will attack non-stop all the time forcing opponent to do something about it. But yeah there are little similarities.
I don't think the Swarm Host is redundant, but I do agree that it doesn't feel swarmy in the slightest. Big clunky units that shoot out glorified broodlings once every 15 seconds? How worthless. A Terran will wait for them to expire, scan, then stim, then destroy them. Tada, dead Swarm Hosts. I can see their defensive potential, or maybe nydus/drop harass, but as a siege unit it's pretty terrible.
To me they just launch the locusts way too slow. That terran could easily just move the tanks forward a little bit and scan to eliminate the swarm hosts. The terran has plenty of time in between volleys to get up there and deal with them.
On October 24 2011 23:51 jeeeeohn wrote: I don't think the Swarm Host is redundant, but I do agree that it doesn't feel swarmy in the slightest. Big clunky units that shoot out glorified broodlings once every 15 seconds? How worthless. A Terran will wait for them to expire, scan, then stim, then destroy them. Tada, dead Swarm Hosts. I can see their defensive potential, or maybe nydus/drop harass, but as a siege unit it's pretty terrible.
I don't see them being that useful on their own like in the video but with a few units behind or maybe a couple of infestors for fungal that seems pretty scary to me.
i do not see any use for that unit. In that video there are 9 swarm hosts so 27 supply and 1800 minerals/ 900 gas. From what i see the damage is done more from the splash of the siege.
On October 24 2011 23:54 Monomate wrote: To me they just launch the locusts way too slow. That terran could easily just move the tanks forward a little bit and scan to eliminate the swarm hosts. The terran has plenty of time in between volleys to get up there and deal with them.
That is what i am afraid for as well. From the sounds it looked like the siege unit the zerg needed in mid game but it seems it will be used for something else since the dam worms are simply to slow, not to mention the range.
To be honest the "slow" spawn rate can be fixed by mannually burrowing your swarmhosts in groups of 2-3 instead of just burrowing them at the same time... giving you a steady line of locusts to attack.
and no... zerg doesnt need a carrier... the carrier was bad for 2 reasons.
1.incredibly hight tech cost.
2. took too long to get to it.
but on the other hand the swarm host takes way less time and costs way less so making it like a carrier attack wise would really just end up making zerg too much of a problem mid/late game (even more now that they have the vyper :X)
I dont really like it so far, particularly because I thought it'd spit out broodlings which travel faster. It doesn't seem like something I could put up on a ramp to defend a choke either, since they'd have to circle around and walk down the ramp themselves which was what I was hoping for in this unit, particularly the idea of shooting locusts off of a cliff and onto the approaching terran army, making tanks hit some of the marines and stuff.
Can't have it all I suppose but so far, unless these guys are somehow practical to mass up early, they dont seem very fun or interesting.
From the limited creativity my mind can muster, this doesn't really provide map control so much as a contain like in the video. Would like to see some pros try out different positioning to serve other roles though.
Reasons I think you are wrong about saying the SH is the same as the Infestor and / or the Brood Lord:
- The Infestor uses energy to create those Infested Terrans, which is a tactical choice as opposed to using Fungal Growth or Neural Parasite. - Infested Terrans can shoot into the air, Swarm Hosts can't. - Swarm Hosts can lock a position down without costing the player APM, the Infestor can only lock down a position for as long as it's energy lasts and costs the player APM. - Swarm Hosts are one Tier below the Brood Lord and countered in a completely different way. - Brood Lords are meant to be the end-game siege unit needed to break overly excessive defenses (of, for example Bronze players making 20 cannons), contradictionary the Swarm Host is designed to fight for board control in a different stage of the game (mid-game).
I do feel there can be some tweaking going on surrounding the Swarm Host's attack. Either make it a bit faster and weaker, or make it faster and stronger and make the Locusts cost a bit of minerals (but this will piss off all those Protoss Reaver lovers).
Its a weird unit. Does anyone know how long the locust lasts? Because they have a decent amount of hp, so they can tank pretty damn well, which makes up for the time between spawns. Maybe reduce the hp, but increase the spawn rate?
Also, why are people assuming that you'll just send a Swarm Lord in its own towards a base? Do people do that with siege tanks? Or do they have support for the unit, like Zerg players will do with this new unit. They'll have lings/roaches/whatever to support it (at least they should do)
On October 24 2011 23:51 jeeeeohn wrote: I don't think the Swarm Host is redundant, but I do agree that it doesn't feel swarmy in the slightest. Big clunky units that shoot out glorified broodlings once every 15 seconds? How worthless. A Terran will wait for them to expire, scan, then stim, then destroy them. Tada, dead Swarm Hosts. I can see their defensive potential, or maybe nydus/drop harass, but as a siege unit it's pretty terrible.
Get a couple banelings maybe? Its not like you will only have spawn host.
I think most of the redundancy is that these locusts aren't projectiles... Sieging an enemy is useless if they can shoot down these siege 'projectiles'. All it does is add a few more units to an attack, where you lose the food from these hosts in an attack. In order to actually give some map presence, these attacks need to be projectiles that can't be shot down (like tanks/broodlords)
It looks too phallic even for the race with spine crawlers spore crawlers and nydus.
I still think the lurker is better. Broodlords are good cos they do range damage and bug out the ai and lurkers impale things but swarm hosts just make suicide melee units.
EPT
