EPTOn November 01 2011 12:28 GentleDrill wrote:
Well I sifted through the whole thread and it was underwhelming: I found only one post I hadn't already seen when I skimmed through. And many of them seem to be based around extrapolation rather than detailing specific experiences from whatever games they managed to play. I might as well post them all though.
+ Show Spoiler [Morrow's post. He's not so…] +
+ Show Spoiler [Disarm22's small post] +
+ Show Spoiler [Kylstron's posts, not all of the…] +
+ Show Spoiler [Uberism] +
+ Show Spoiler [Jecht, don't think he was at Bli…] +
I was hoping more than 3 out of the 25,000+ who attended Blizzcon might have posted in this thread to offer some more meaty opinions, but oh well. Now I wish I could better remember what was said about it on SotG. Sorry this isn't more useful or interesting.
Well I sifted through the whole thread and it was underwhelming: I found only one post I hadn't already seen when I skimmed through. And many of them seem to be based around extrapolation rather than detailing specific experiences from whatever games they managed to play. I might as well post them all though.
+ Show Spoiler [Morrow's post. He's not so…] +
On October 25 2011 01:51 MorroW wrote:
i think this unit seems to be really cool and good
1: siege unit
the fact that they live so long period of time and dont need a target to shoot out thees guys (infact its "built" from the swarm host allows it to have the greatest "range" in the game.
you can slowly break down defenses being on a very far distance so tanks cant kill you, plus its on the ground so vikings cant kill you too
2: meatshield
i think this unit creates much potential for just saving time and making it harder to break down the zerg. maybe its very difficult to break down spine crawlers, hydras and infestor if these locusts creep sprinting in and soaking up damage much like the broodlord acts in this situation. but again since its a ground unit that burrows, costs less and is lower tier with a far longer range. maybe it will do the job better than the broodlords as far as "blocking" the opponents army goes
3: cost efficiency in the stalement late game scenario
kinda goes back to my first point but i just wanna point out this in the late game abit. imagine the late game scenario where neither one of the players want or can attack.
this is the only single unit that can slowly break down the enemy. you might say infestors infested terran can do the same but ghost raven and even siege tank range might be too big of a threat.
ofcourse the borodlord cant poke at this defense as well from terran becaues of the vikings and ghosts.
get enough amounts of locusts to actually reach the terran, (might only need 1 swarm host per siege tank in this scenario) then slowly damage him from a far distance without being in danger at all. this could change the basic concept of zvt lategame and might force terran to be the aggressor when you reach high enough numbers of these guys
ofcourse these are all just ideas and speculations but i think theres potential for this unit that no other unit has for zerg, even for any race.
the "attack range" combined with spawning free units makes it really unique, on top of being tier 2 where a special unit like this "belongs" in tier 3 (like the broodlord)
the weakness of the unit is obvious tho. straight up engagements it might not be cost efficient to use, its slow movement and the constant need of being protected by other units as it seems to be very fragile alone
i think this unit seems to be really cool and good
1: siege unit
the fact that they live so long period of time and dont need a target to shoot out thees guys (infact its "built" from the swarm host allows it to have the greatest "range" in the game.
you can slowly break down defenses being on a very far distance so tanks cant kill you, plus its on the ground so vikings cant kill you too
2: meatshield
i think this unit creates much potential for just saving time and making it harder to break down the zerg. maybe its very difficult to break down spine crawlers, hydras and infestor if these locusts creep sprinting in and soaking up damage much like the broodlord acts in this situation. but again since its a ground unit that burrows, costs less and is lower tier with a far longer range. maybe it will do the job better than the broodlords as far as "blocking" the opponents army goes
3: cost efficiency in the stalement late game scenario
kinda goes back to my first point but i just wanna point out this in the late game abit. imagine the late game scenario where neither one of the players want or can attack.
this is the only single unit that can slowly break down the enemy. you might say infestors infested terran can do the same but ghost raven and even siege tank range might be too big of a threat.
ofcourse the borodlord cant poke at this defense as well from terran becaues of the vikings and ghosts.
get enough amounts of locusts to actually reach the terran, (might only need 1 swarm host per siege tank in this scenario) then slowly damage him from a far distance without being in danger at all. this could change the basic concept of zvt lategame and might force terran to be the aggressor when you reach high enough numbers of these guys
ofcourse these are all just ideas and speculations but i think theres potential for this unit that no other unit has for zerg, even for any race.
the "attack range" combined with spawning free units makes it really unique, on top of being tier 2 where a special unit like this "belongs" in tier 3 (like the broodlord)
the weakness of the unit is obvious tho. straight up engagements it might not be cost efficient to use, its slow movement and the constant need of being protected by other units as it seems to be very fragile alone
+ Show Spoiler [Disarm22's small post] +
On October 25 2011 08:43 Disarm22 wrote:
i played with the swarm host at blizzcon, it was fun but to be honest i was expecting something more original. it just didnt excite me too much and i found it kinda boring. its simply a burrowed broodlord of sorts. im more pleased with the other zerg and multiplayer changes
i played with the swarm host at blizzcon, it was fun but to be honest i was expecting something more original. it just didnt excite me too much and i found it kinda boring. its simply a burrowed broodlord of sorts. im more pleased with the other zerg and multiplayer changes
+ Show Spoiler [Kylstron's posts, not all of the…] +
On October 25 2011 23:51 Klystron wrote:
When I played around with them, Host Swarmers felt pretty solid, but the more I think about it, the more I realize that they felt about the same way that Broodlords feel, except that they come out a lot sooner.
I do agree that they are too close to a Broodlord in function and role. A t2-2.5 ranged aoe unit would have been better.
I really think that zerg needs something different at t2-2.5, but I think that there is still room for the host swarmer at t3.
When I think of locusts I think of a flying swarm of bugs that covers and consumes everything. I think that it would be better if the Host Swarmer was closer to a cross between a Brood Lord and a Carrier with flying, free locusts, that died after a short time.
When I played around with them, Host Swarmers felt pretty solid, but the more I think about it, the more I realize that they felt about the same way that Broodlords feel, except that they come out a lot sooner.
I do agree that they are too close to a Broodlord in function and role. A t2-2.5 ranged aoe unit would have been better.
I really think that zerg needs something different at t2-2.5, but I think that there is still room for the host swarmer at t3.
When I think of locusts I think of a flying swarm of bugs that covers and consumes everything. I think that it would be better if the Host Swarmer was closer to a cross between a Brood Lord and a Carrier with flying, free locusts, that died after a short time.
On October 31 2011 05:21 Klystron wrote:
What do you mean that it doesn't overlap with the Broodlord? It does the exact same thing as the Broodlord. The difference that you point out is that the Broodlord is actually a lot better because it will always do damage, unlike the Swarm Host.
What do you mean that it doesn't overlap with the Broodlord? It does the exact same thing as the Broodlord. The difference that you point out is that the Broodlord is actually a lot better because it will always do damage, unlike the Swarm Host.
On October 31 2011 06:09 Klystron wrote:I was at blizzcon, I actually tested these things. I can tell you that they perform almost exactly like broodlords.
For both units the primary means of dealing damage is through spawned units.
You are trying to argue that because the specifics of the unit are different that they have completely different roles and uses, which is not the case. Both units are siege units that attack through spawned units. The difference is that Broodlords are much better at this role than Swarm Hosts because Broodlords will always do damage, Swarm Hosts won't do any damage if the locusts die before being able to attack.
Also, Dustin Browder said that the intended role of the Swarm host is to break an enemy base, not just contain them.
For both units the primary means of dealing damage is through spawned units.
You are trying to argue that because the specifics of the unit are different that they have completely different roles and uses, which is not the case. Both units are siege units that attack through spawned units. The difference is that Broodlords are much better at this role than Swarm Hosts because Broodlords will always do damage, Swarm Hosts won't do any damage if the locusts die before being able to attack.
Also, Dustin Browder said that the intended role of the Swarm host is to break an enemy base, not just contain them.
On October 31 2011 06:48 Klystron wrote:
Broodlings aren't made irrelevant by things shooting at them because they spawn on their targets. Locusts aren't particularly fast and will die before they can reach their targets if there is enough stuff shooting back at them. Think zealots with no charge. This is something that is very noticeable when they go up against things like shredders backed up by siege tanks. Or when they go up against a stalker/colossi death ball. I tested them against both of these things and was underwhelmed by the results. Until you get like 8-10 of these things out the locusts just die before they can do any damage.
Broodlings aren't made irrelevant by things shooting at them because they spawn on their targets. Locusts aren't particularly fast and will die before they can reach their targets if there is enough stuff shooting back at them. Think zealots with no charge. This is something that is very noticeable when they go up against things like shredders backed up by siege tanks. Or when they go up against a stalker/colossi death ball. I tested them against both of these things and was underwhelmed by the results. Until you get like 8-10 of these things out the locusts just die before they can do any damage.
On October 31 2011 07:08 Klystron wrote:I agree that zerg needs a siege unit before the 15 minute mark, I think it is great that Blizzard recognizes this problem and is trying to fix it.
However, I don't agree with the way that Blizzard is implementing the fix. The Swarm Host is literally an earlier broodlord, which is great and all, but taking an existing unit, nerfing it, and putting it lower in the tech tree is the wrong way to go about it.
The swarm host does not address a lot of other problems that zerg has. This thing can't attack anything up or down a cliff. It uses melee units, which means that it requires already precious melee range real-estate. And it still doesn't address the issue that zerg completely lacks a ranged splash unit.
If the swarm host is exactly what zerg needs, then why not just nerf the broodlord and make it only require a spire?
Are you really trying to tell me that you can make a better judgement call concerning the usefulness of a new unit after watching a 5 minute video? I was there, I played the freaking game, and I don't know all the possible uses for this thing or exactly how it can be used. The one thing that I can tell you is that from my experience, is that it is the same exact concept as a broodlord, but at a lower tech tier.
However, I don't agree with the way that Blizzard is implementing the fix. The Swarm Host is literally an earlier broodlord, which is great and all, but taking an existing unit, nerfing it, and putting it lower in the tech tree is the wrong way to go about it.
The swarm host does not address a lot of other problems that zerg has. This thing can't attack anything up or down a cliff. It uses melee units, which means that it requires already precious melee range real-estate. And it still doesn't address the issue that zerg completely lacks a ranged splash unit.
If the swarm host is exactly what zerg needs, then why not just nerf the broodlord and make it only require a spire?
Are you really trying to tell me that you can make a better judgement call concerning the usefulness of a new unit after watching a 5 minute video? I was there, I played the freaking game, and I don't know all the possible uses for this thing or exactly how it can be used. The one thing that I can tell you is that from my experience, is that it is the same exact concept as a broodlord, but at a lower tech tier.
+ Show Spoiler [Uberism] +
On October 31 2011 11:31 uberism wrote:
Played with this unit at blizzcon and they are extremely strong.
They will rape PFs, chokes and any other turtling antic you can think of. Just 10 swarm hosts and you will not be able to turtle guaranteed. These things do 20dmg fully upgraded at an insane attack speed and will regenerate as soon as the last batch dies.
Played with this unit at blizzcon and they are extremely strong.
They will rape PFs, chokes and any other turtling antic you can think of. Just 10 swarm hosts and you will not be able to turtle guaranteed. These things do 20dmg fully upgraded at an insane attack speed and will regenerate as soon as the last batch dies.
+ Show Spoiler [Jecht, don't think he was at Bli…] +
On October 31 2011 20:07 Jehct wrote:At least try the unit in the HOTS custom map before commenting on it's usefulness. These things do huge damage to a planetary - like 5 will bring a planetary to half health assuming no repair/support; any kind of fortified, immobile position inevitably takes huge damage. Their dps/health is seriously impressive when you consider the cost.
Of course if you move in on 8 cannons with 1 swarm host it won't work; try 6 swarm hosts and that base will go down (eventually), much like siege tanks.
The lack of immediate damage does a good job of keeping different races different. In it's current form the swarm host just feels/looks cool; I'd be sad to see it go. Compared to lurkers in BW the two units fill totally different roles, and if the lurker replaced the swarm host it wouldn't really be a lurker anymore =(
[...]
The simulation in the shredder thread looked super inaccurate and buggy - at any given time only about a third of the locusts that should have spawned were out (ie. it was closer to the damage of 3-4 swarm hosts).
Of course if you move in on 8 cannons with 1 swarm host it won't work; try 6 swarm hosts and that base will go down (eventually), much like siege tanks.
The lack of immediate damage does a good job of keeping different races different. In it's current form the swarm host just feels/looks cool; I'd be sad to see it go. Compared to lurkers in BW the two units fill totally different roles, and if the lurker replaced the swarm host it wouldn't really be a lurker anymore =(
[...]
The simulation in the shredder thread looked super inaccurate and buggy - at any given time only about a third of the locusts that should have spawned were out (ie. it was closer to the damage of 3-4 swarm hosts).
I was hoping more than 3 out of the 25,000+ who attended Blizzcon might have posted in this thread to offer some more meaty opinions, but oh well. Now I wish I could better remember what was said about it on SotG. Sorry this isn't more useful or interesting.
On the contrary, it is extremely interesting. It's great to hear opinions from people who have actually played with the unit, as they have a far better insight into how the unit actually feels/plays.
I think people need to chill out a bit. Several who have actually used the unit have said that they think it should be useful, and people need to remember that there's still months of tweaking and balancing to go. The unit has great potential.
