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Umpteen
United Kingdom1570 Posts
On October 25 2011 00:23 StarBrift wrote:On the same note you could say that the new hydralisk is redundant becuase its now going to be a roach with more dps that costs more and you get later (obv you can't burrow it and it has less hp). And since nobody has been saying the hydra is redundant, I guess your point is proved... | ||
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Baseic
Netherlands310 Posts
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NeonFox
2373 Posts
On October 24 2011 23:48 Alpina wrote: I'ts not same role as infestor. You come near opponent base and burrow in range few of them and they will attack non-stop all the time forcing opponent to do something about it. But yeah there are little similarities. While I agree, I don't see why I would get this unit over an infestor. And I'm all for mini zerg carriers! | ||
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BeeNu
615 Posts
On October 25 2011 00:25 Eviscerador wrote: I don't see the point, so zerg have BL in lair and it is bad?? in which way? They are like free units to tank the first salvo round of anything, and to fuck with firing AI. From each shot you will be receiving two free units with 87 HP and 10 damage, that is like 150 minerals worth of zerglings (not to talk about 3 larva) They look great. Lurkers in the other way, just feel old. Come on, I don't want SC1 with better graphics, I wan't a different game. Let me explain my problem with the SH. It's similar to the BL except BL does instant damage with it's attack and the broodlings can't be targeted till they are already in close proximity making them instantly effective in an attack even if the broodlings get instantly demolished. The locust on the other hand have the potention to be instantly gunned down theoretically without doing any amount of damage, it's a unit that comes after Infestation Pit meaning the enemy should already have a rather significant army and will more than likely be able to handle the Locusts without incurring any real damage. Secondly, the role of absorbing the first shots is fine and all but people already use Infested Terrans to do this so there is overlap with the role and the Infestor has more follow-up functions, it can fungal, it can harass all game and it can help in major battles, what can the Swarm Host do? I'm not necessarily against the idea of the Swarm Host, but from what I've seen I can't imagine it being at all useful unless there are significant changes. | ||
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CriscoTroll
24 Posts
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BeeNu
615 Posts
On October 25 2011 00:29 CriscoTroll wrote: mmkay, let's have balance discussions about units that don't actually exist and that none of us have ever tried to use, makes a lot of sense. I'm not discussing balance, I'm trying to figure out how this unit is supposed to be at all useful to the Zerg. | ||
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Gnight
77 Posts
On October 25 2011 00:13 ContactKilla wrote: Just imagine using it in a undefended expansion. If im too busy and my 4th is being attacked well fuck. Dont think of the unit, think of the possiblities. You can use this to block a ramp. ever think of that? Zerg will rather want to do a zergling runby on a undefended expansion, will do more damage and take it down way faster, really way faster. The time it will take for the a group of 3-4 swarmhosts to take down a expansion or do good harrass (worth their investment) after seeing this video is... well difficult to pull off. The speed of the spawns are not enough to be a real threat to workers, the fact they are not projectiles and melee makes it that they have to chase workers and on top of this comes the fact that the spawn rate is mind numbing slow. So the defending player has easily time to take workers to safety and get a small troop number there to take down the harrass before his expansion is been taken down. While a zergling runby can easily block the path of the workers, catch up to them and have the dps to quickly take down the base and run out (muta's sorta the same way, easy going in and easy going out), don't see that happening with the swarmhost. I honestly don't see this unit that viable as of now, in defense it may be a bit decent, but their spawnrate, the speed of the spawns and the fact they aren't projectiles while being melee hitters just makes it way too easy to avoid real damage from them. Massing them is a option, but wheter that is a good option or not depends on their cost and supply count they take. If this unit costs like 100 gass a piece and takes in 4 supply, then I don't see it being massed any time soon. Rather want some muta's to pick things off, or save the gass for infestors that have 3x times as many "attacks" that each can be used in different ways. So far no idea on their costs though, so that's just assuming things. ^ ^ As a backup unit to a main army... it won't work either in my eyes. The zerg army is mostly mobile based (even more so when the hydra gets speed boost) and the swarmhost clearly isn't. Zerg isn't supposed to siege up with their whole army, they are in a constant move and therefor the swarmhost is most likely even less usefull being used in a army composition for a full-out battle. Setting them apart somewhere in the map (like one could do with the lurker) comes with a problem that, unlike the lurker, swarmhost don't do direct damage. They do damage "over time", well sort of that is, so running into them isn't a direct threat, it takes time and with the more time you give them, the more chance one actually get's damage done with it. But for them to be given time you have to back them up to keep them alive and protected. With that you limit the mobility of the zerg players other army units, which isn't what a zerg player 9/10 times wants, at least that's how I see it. In the end we will have to wait, but so far I think this unit will most likely see little to no real usage in the higher level play of sc2. | ||
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Fanov
Canada42 Posts
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Bagi
Germany6799 Posts
On October 25 2011 00:31 BeeNu wrote: I'm not discussing balance, I'm trying to figure out how this unit is supposed to be at all useful to the Zerg. Well, for starters you should stop assuming that the locusts aren't threatening because they currently don't really feel like it. This is only the first iteration of the unit and it will probably undergo many changes. Just assume that the locusts will be able to deal damage to a turtling opponent, thats the whole point of this unit. What comes to unit compositions, just imagine going lingfestor in HOTS. Good unit comp when you can catch your opponents army off guard, but cannot really attack a fortified base. Well it just happens that with infestors you get swarm host tech, and suddenly you have a way to put pressure on your opponent and force engagements that aren't ideal for him. | ||
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BurningSera
Ireland19621 Posts
On October 24 2011 23:59 Velr wrote: I somehow can't see a reason to every build one of these... Or think of a situation where i'm like "yeah... swarm hosts would solve that"... that pretty much summed up what i had in mind too. SH is (yet) another very non-zerglike unit. and i wonder how much food will they cost....because lets be honest we zerg has some food count issue. | ||
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Turbo.Tactics
Germany675 Posts
I had to laugh when Browder said "swarmy feelin" because this is nothing like a Hydra push in BW ZvP or Ling/infestor in Sc2 and I didn't get the swarmy feeling at all. Also slow and methodical grind of the Zerg race? I much rather have rushy agile burst dmg than this. The Swarmhost itself looks awesome but the way it functions now is designed poorly imo. It gets countered directly by the new Hellion Transformation and the last thing Zerg needs is slow low hp high cooldown dps... | ||
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StarBrift
Sweden1761 Posts
On October 25 2011 00:19 BeeNu wrote: I really dislike what I've seen of the Swarm Host so far and I really am struggling to see how it's supposed to be useful. The ONLY situation I can see it being useful is to cut off Terran reinforcements, that's it. But that's also something I can do just as easily with a small pack of Zerglings or Mutas. Any other potential function of the Swarm Host I think is currently being filled by the Infested Terran, like sure the Locust might do more damage and have more HP but like so what? That's still just filling the same role of Infested Terran except maybe slightly better? I really like all of the Zerg changes except for the Swarm Host, it just seems useless as hell to me. Funny how Blizzard removed Lurker for having a role barely similar to the Baneling and yet Swarm Host's functions are already filled by Infestor and Broodlord. What a joke. I guess what I'm really trying to say is I just want my Lurker back. They gave Terran their Firebat back why can't I have my Lurker??!! No. The cost effectiveness of 4 swarm hosts instead of 12 infestors is enough to make them a viable option vs tanks alone. The unit is a siege unit. It is used to start an engagement vs a stationary type of army such as a tankline. It's the optimal flanking tool. I don't know how much you played this game but in most games where a zerg tries to throw roaches into a tankline today they simply die. You have to attack while the tanks are unsieged. It's not even remotely possible to engage a tankline as zerg unless you have a clear food advantage or brood lords. This unit allows zergs not only to get a good flank at the start of a battle but it is also a great supporting unit that will help you survive UNTIL you get those broodlords out (or ultras probably in HOTS). Swarm host gives an incentive for the protoss / terran army to actually back off and it can hold a position for a long time. This is something that a lurker would never add to sc2. Lurkers were great in bw bcause zerg had no other units like it. In sc2 the combination of banes and fungals have taken the lurkers role. This unit is clearly anti tank and in some cases probably anti mass immortal. Imagine doing the spore trick to get about 20 extra food in your max army. Then you spend that food on swarm hosts. Assuming they are 2 food each (might be 3) you will get 20 locusts added tio your maxed army every 10 seconds. That is a pretty fearsome situation. Also can you guys imagine swarm hosts in combination with infestors? You can burrow the swarm host and then as the locusts pop you run in with infestors and put up infested terrans while flanking with your entire army. That is going to be some real Julyesque sauron style zerg. I see the swarm host as a defensive unit (and tankline pushing unit) used mostly to survive until you can get the real lategame units out. It is not too strong but its useful and probably needed. The only thing I'm a little worried about is their speed. Lurkers, while obviously needing to get closer, had the very fast runspeed unburrowed so that if you saw you were losing a fight you can preeemtively take your lurkers and run back to a base or to reinforcements. This can never be done witht eh swarm host. I would like it if when you saw that you were starting to lose the fight you could unburrow your swarm hosts and start running home. Zerg has no unit retention what so ever except for speed roaches and I dunno about getting this unit if it's dead int he water once the army dies. All depends on unit cost of course. | ||
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Jermstuddog
United States2231 Posts
That seems to be the real issue: why would you get a swarm host when you already have lings? | ||
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NuKedUFirst
Canada3139 Posts
On October 24 2011 23:50 ProxyKnoxy wrote: Imagine Swarm host/infestor/brood lord.... *shivers* I think that that is the problem. Infested Marines, Broodlings and Superbroodlings cost nothing and can destroy so so much :/ Sure you can argue the tech and the unit cost of their hosts but when in battle your trading these "fake units" for units that take up supply and cost to build. idk. On October 25 2011 00:36 BurningSera wrote: that pretty much summed up what i had in mind too. SH is (yet) another very non-zerglike unit. and i wonder how much food will they cost....because lets be honest we zerg has that some food count issue. Isn't zerg supposed to be a swarm race?.. Set up 4 swarm hosts.. every 15 seconds 2 90hp melee units go flying out.. so 8x90hp units tanking damage every 15 seconds and are free to just launch at the army while zerg is doing other shit around the map. | ||
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Mutaahh
Netherlands859 Posts
and maybe nerf with costs of unit (but dunno now) You can use the units as a constant free scout on the map. Irritating the other player, needs them to find hosts on the map with scan OR that flying detector which i cant remember the name of. I think they need to spawn 3-4 locusts a swarm host, to make them better. OR the HP/strenght needs to be increased (workers shoudn't be able to own them) | ||
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Shiladie
Canada1631 Posts
- Locusts can cliff-hop and have the leap ability that those lings in HotS single player have. This would allow them to siege from high/low ground similar to any other siege unit, and would allow them to actually engage with larger armies I originally thought that burrowing them all at the same time to send in waves would be the best, as each wave would do more damage due to more attackers then, but I think burrowing them staggered, so that there's a constant stream of units with no break would be the best option, as they are less clumped up for tanks, and it never gives the opponent a defined "counter attack now" timing. | ||
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Paladia
802 Posts
It's basically like an everlasting zealot stream. | ||
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Arceus
Vietnam8333 Posts
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StarBrift
Sweden1761 Posts
On October 25 2011 00:25 Umpteen wrote: And since nobody has been saying the hydra is redundant, I guess your point is proved... People saying it's redundant does not make it true. The hydra has never been redundant. It has been unusable because of its speed but it has very different purposes from a roach. The hydra/roach army is vastly different from a mass roach army. A hydra/ling army is vastly different from a roach/ling army. | ||
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Crovea
Denmark100 Posts
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