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On October 25 2011 00:41 NuKedUFirst wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2011 23:50 ProxyKnoxy wrote:
Imagine Swarm host/infestor/brood lord.... *shivers* I think that that is the problem. Infested Marines, Broodlings and Superbroodlings cost nothing and can destroy so so much :/ Sure you can argue the tech and the unit cost of their hosts but when in battle your trading these "fake units" for units that take up supply and cost to build. idk.
Think of it this way:
The cost to effectiveness of the zerg investment in said unit increases the longer it is around dealing un-answered damage to the opponent.
If an infestor is able to endlessly spawn infested terrans that you fight with your army, then yes it is getting a LOT more bang for it's buck due to all of the 'free' units it's making. However, if you snipe off said infestor after it sends out 4 infested terrans you kill, it suddenly was nowhere near cost effective. The same thing goes for the swarm host, if you let them sit there sending waves and waves of units at your army without countering and killing them, then yes you deserve to lose. This is giving the initiative in the zerg's hands at more points in the game then WoL, where after getting to mid-game they were lacking.
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I dozed off just now and had a beautiful dream.
In it, Swarm Hosts had a spell / cooldown ability to spawn larvae instead of Locusts.
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if you dont burrow/attack them simultaneously you will reduce redundandence cause they will block each other otherwise (melee prob.. just more at the same spot wont do more damage etc) .every few seconds a small wave potentially causing siege splash ... and maybe it gets harde for the tanks/marines to unsige scan stim kill etc... maybe you can force an all-tank-unsiege cause they cant risk loosing marines tanks etc ...
this would be a chance to "A-Move in" .... just like a smaller, little slower, less aggressive effect you have when broodlords first arrive at the front/siegeline and without vikings you see them often unsiege and retreat till vikings or they go all in stim and try to kill you...
just my newbie thoughts....
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Yeah i think broodlords and swarmhost are bascially the smae jsut one is stronger but more time and tech expensive, a siege unit is nice but they dont need to add more "free" creeps to zerg imo.
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On October 25 2011 00:25 Eviscerador wrote:
I don't see the point, so zerg have BL in lair and it is bad?? in which way? They are like free units to tank the first salvo round of anything, and to fuck with firing AI. From each shot you will be receiving two free units with 87 HP and 10 damage, that is like 150 minerals worth of zerglings (not to talk about 3 larva)
They look great. Lurkers in the other way, just feel old. Come on, I don't want SC1 with better graphics, I wan't a different game.
I completely agree. If I wanted lurkers I would go back to BW. A new game is a new game with new stuff ESPECIALLY with an expansion. Not a remade brood war.
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Swarm host is awesome with ling/mutalisk/swarmhost.
Simply because in the open, the SH can be used to force an engagement while the lings flank and mutas either reinforce or go straight for the mineral line.
I don't see why anyone says they are redundant.
They are awesome. Drawing fire against marine/tank/medivac, they more than pay for themselves. Since in sufficient numbers, marines would waste stim and medivac energy just to hold the line.
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Point of the swarm host is to fortify positions. This count be either defensively... or similar to tanks sieging outside your base to contain.
I think whether it fulfils this role or not will depend on the lifespan of the broodlings that pop out. If they live long enough to wait for the next set, it should be fine. But if there is a window where enemies can just run in and snipe them all it's pointless. Especially since they're probably armored and will die in 2 seconds to marauders.
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The Swarm Host is obviously not anti bio-ball, because I don't think the Locusts would do anything to a decent ball of marines that is being healed by medivacs and we already got banelings and infestors for that. So why not give it the broodling attack the queen had in sc bw?
If you could burrow and one-shot kill units like tanks, marines etc I think it'd be much more useful and also add a new level of micro to the game.
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On October 25 2011 00:45 StarBrift wrote:Show nested quote +On October 25 2011 00:25 Umpteen wrote:On October 25 2011 00:23 StarBrift wrote:On the same note you could say that the new hydralisk is redundant becuase its now going to be a roach with more dps that costs more and you get later (obv you can't burrow it and it has less hp). And since nobody has been saying the hydra is redundant, I guess your point is proved... People saying it's redundant does not make it true. The hydra has never been redundant. It has been unusable because of its speed but it has very different purposes from a roach. The hydra/roach army is vastly different from a mass roach army. A hydra/ling army is vastly different from a roach/ling army.
Sorry; I was (mostly) being flippant 
Still, it's true that people have gone to almost any lengths to avoid building Hydra, because there's always something you'd rather have if you can possibly manage it.
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On October 25 2011 00:48 MarbleGuest wrote:Show nested quote +On October 25 2011 00:25 Eviscerador wrote:
I don't see the point, so zerg have BL in lair and it is bad?? in which way? They are like free units to tank the first salvo round of anything, and to fuck with firing AI. From each shot you will be receiving two free units with 87 HP and 10 damage, that is like 150 minerals worth of zerglings (not to talk about 3 larva)
They look great. Lurkers in the other way, just feel old. Come on, I don't want SC1 with better graphics, I wan't a different game. I completely agree. If I wanted lurkers I would go back to BW. A new game is a new game with new stuff ESPECIALLY with an expansion. Not a remade brood war.
If I wanted marines, I would go back to BW, OH WAIT, the actually got BETTER in this game!
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On October 25 2011 00:51 DoomsVille wrote:
Point of the swarm host is to fortify positions. This count be either defensively... or similar to tanks sieging outside your base to contain.
I think whether it fulfils this role or not will depend on the lifespan of the broodlings that pop out. If they live long enough to wait for the next set, it should be fine. But if there is a window where enemies can just run in and snipe them all it's pointless. Especially since they're probably armored and will die in 2 seconds to marauders.
I'm not even sure if SH are that great at defending positions, because they add even more potential blocker for your lings and won't circumvent FF.
I would prefer Lurker by a mile for mapcontrol/defending. They would actually add something new to the Zerg arsenal instead of a poor mans Broodlord.
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Maybe this was already stated:
Think about using the Swarm Hosts and the Blinding Cloud of the Viper in conjunction.
This negates the problem with the Locust being killed before they can deal their damage.
Should be a pretty decent choke breaker combo.
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Also imagine this with infestors behind it. You cant just run up and snipe these things.
Also Im a terran player and I seem more optimistic about this than most zergs lol.
BroodLord Infestor is already super super strong.
Brood lord, Swarm , Infestor. This would be hard to counter.
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On October 25 2011 00:51 Umpteen wrote:Show nested quote +On October 25 2011 00:45 StarBrift wrote:On October 25 2011 00:25 Umpteen wrote:On October 25 2011 00:23 StarBrift wrote:On the same note you could say that the new hydralisk is redundant becuase its now going to be a roach with more dps that costs more and you get later (obv you can't burrow it and it has less hp). And since nobody has been saying the hydra is redundant, I guess your point is proved... People saying it's redundant does not make it true. The hydra has never been redundant. It has been unusable because of its speed but it has very different purposes from a roach. The hydra/roach army is vastly different from a mass roach army. A hydra/ling army is vastly different from a roach/ling army. Sorry; I was (mostly) being flippant Still, it's true that people have gone to almost any lengths to avoid building Hydra, because there's always something you'd rather have if you can possibly manage it.
Indeed, I am one of the biggest hydra haters out there. Really excited to see the new speed change though.
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I really hate that people are labeling it as "free units" cause it costs money to produce and each unit it produces has an approximate damage out put but not more than one at the same time. You dont say oh a seige tank can do "free damage" do you?
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I havn't really seen anyone discussing the scouting potential of the Swarm Host. Depending on the distance the locusts can travel before it despawns, It has some great scouting potential,
- Keep 4 or 5 in your base. Set rally points all over the map.
- Keep 1 hidden near enemy expantion. Rally to expantion.
- Keep 1 hidden near enemy base. Rally to front door.
The Swarm Host presents all kinds of possibilities to control the map and limit the enemies options.
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On October 25 2011 00:52 Jermstuddog wrote:Show nested quote +On October 25 2011 00:48 MarbleGuest wrote:On October 25 2011 00:25 Eviscerador wrote:
I don't see the point, so zerg have BL in lair and it is bad?? in which way? They are like free units to tank the first salvo round of anything, and to fuck with firing AI. From each shot you will be receiving two free units with 87 HP and 10 damage, that is like 150 minerals worth of zerglings (not to talk about 3 larva)
They look great. Lurkers in the other way, just feel old. Come on, I don't want SC1 with better graphics, I wan't a different game. I completely agree. If I wanted lurkers I would go back to BW. A new game is a new game with new stuff ESPECIALLY with an expansion. Not a remade brood war. If I wanted marines, I would go back to BW, OH WAIT, the actually got BETTER in this game!
We are not talking about the main core unit (lings and zealots remained the same, and improved)
Zerg got banelings which are way better than lukers in killing marines, are T1.5 and feel zergy.
Oh yes, marines with micro or tanks can counter them. And also do they with lurkers.
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On October 25 2011 01:03 Makura wrote:
I really hate that people are labeling it as "free units" cause it costs money to produce and each unit it produces has an approximate damage out put but not more than one at the same time. You dont say oh a seige tank can do "free damage" do you?
No but they mean that you'll be able to spawn the small creatures indefinitely, meaning in the end (considering it didn't die very quickly) the cost of making the spawner will have been cheaper than building the equivalent like for example 20 zerglings. If those small creatures die you will have lost nothing as it cost you nothing, that's what they're getting at. A siege tank is similar but it's firing, and it's not a creature being spawned.
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On October 25 2011 00:25 Eviscerador wrote:
I don't see the point, so zerg have BL in lair and it is bad?? in which way? They are like free units to tank the first salvo round of anything, and to fuck with firing AI. From each shot you will be receiving two free units with 87 HP and 10 damage, that is like 150 minerals worth of zerglings (not to talk about 3 larva)
They look great. Lurkers in the other way, just feel old. Come on, I don't want SC1 with better graphics, I wan't a different game.
And if that different game turns out worse because they didn't expand on previous ideas rather than replace them with stupid gimmicky shit?
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On October 25 2011 00:52 Jermstuddog wrote:Show nested quote +On October 25 2011 00:48 MarbleGuest wrote:On October 25 2011 00:25 Eviscerador wrote:
I don't see the point, so zerg have BL in lair and it is bad?? in which way? They are like free units to tank the first salvo round of anything, and to fuck with firing AI. From each shot you will be receiving two free units with 87 HP and 10 damage, that is like 150 minerals worth of zerglings (not to talk about 3 larva)
They look great. Lurkers in the other way, just feel old. Come on, I don't want SC1 with better graphics, I wan't a different game. I completely agree. If I wanted lurkers I would go back to BW. A new game is a new game with new stuff ESPECIALLY with an expansion. Not a remade brood war. If I wanted marines, I would go back to BW, OH WAIT, the actually got BETTER in this game!
I mean... If I wanted BW units I would play BW! Thus I serve play Protoss in SC2.
--not.
Marines, tanks, battlecruisers, zerglings, hydras, mutalisks... They are all from Starcraft 1 - and they play huge roles in the game. .______.
But more seriously, lurker + fungal growth would be ridiculously OP. That's why infestors make me a sad panda. ):
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EPT
