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Active: 1391 users

Ladder fear and The Korean Enigma explained.

Forum Index > SC2 General
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RedDragon571
Profile Joined March 2011
United States633 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-09-07 03:20:04
September 06 2011 23:42 GMT
#1
Hi, EffOrt here, Not the real one (the real one sold his soul to the devil for sc1 skills at the cost of looking like an alien.)

Ladder Fear/anxiety and the Korean superiority complex?
Biology, Psychology and science in general can explain almost everything in the world around us or at least be applied to it. This post will attempt to explain a theory of some of the biggest stigma's in the starcraft 2 scene.

1. Korean's are in general better than everyone followed by European's (scandanavians) which are both much better than North Americans.

[image loading]


2. Ladder Fear is rampant and common.

Some Stats about Ladder Fear/anxiety:

there are approximately 150 threads mentioning ladder fear on TL.

Current Season player numbers:
352,000 NA
116,000 Kr+tw
281,000 EU

*Sc2Ranks

Season 1 and Season 2 Percentage drop between season 1=current, 2=current

823799 NA 628046 NA s1NA: 57% s2NA: 44%
499751 Kr/tw 270220 KR/tw s2Kr/tw: 76% s2KR: 43%
621059 EU 541202 EU s3EU: 54% s2EU: 48%

*http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=248519

You can see that Starcraft 2 has lost well over a million active players due to ladder fear, lack of continuing interest, other games and other misc reason:

Most of those 1v1 players were lost in the gold to bronze league region:

Starcraft 2 is a difficult game with a relatively steep learning curve (it's nothing compared to BW) and more players simply don't or can't put in the time or effort to improve and stick with it. Ladder fear/anxiety among other things is killing E-sports.. In fact there are plenty of people that just play customs and team games, but the number of non 1v1er's has substantially increased. How many of you have friends that played 1 v 1 that don't anymore.

Korean/Swedish Domination and ladder fear have something in common?


There is an excellent book out there by Carol Dweck called Mindset.

http://mindsetonline.com/

At first you might see this book and think, ohhh this is some straight up Oprah-like self help crap, but actually It's written by a psychologist exploring the human mind and moreover the mindset of a person. The short summary of it all is that some people depending on their upbringing develop fixed mindsets and some develop growth mindsets. Now its more complex than that because some people have different parts of their personality that are growth AND fixed.

Fixed Mindset:


How many of you grew up being told you were talented or intelligent. Fixed mindsetters believe your qualities are innate and you are either born talented or not.How many of you grew up being told you were below average, slow or just plain dumb. Fixed mindset people told they were gifted or above average, were the people in high school who did well in elementary in middle school but as school got tougher they struggled or just simply didn't even try. Fixed mindset people being told they were below average tended to be the people who had no confidence in their selves and dropped out of school or just made it by almost failing. Many fixed mindset people went to college and never learned how to study, (why would they need too, their gifted right?) and as a result did poorly. A lot of fixed mindset people are only good at things they take an interest or curiosity too, and many coast by on that. Others are fueled off of pure competition in a constant race to One-up or best those around them.

Growth Mindset:

Growth mindset were the people who didn't always seem to be particularly gifted but always worked extra hard. These people may have failed the first test's of a class but always tried to improve and would bounce back and make the B or A. Growth mindset people are driven by the challenge and work in itself, the results are not so much important as the physical act of challenging and improving. These were the people who worked hard to get where they are and never waste a spare moment to improve.

Mindset factors:
http://michaelgr.com/2007/04/15/fixed-mindset-vs-growth-mindset-which-one-are-you/

Fixed mindset:


You avoid challenges because you don't want to risk your status as a good player or a talented individual. You probably screw around in 1 v 1's with your friends trying a retarded strategy or a flashy build, because if you played standard and lost, that might mean people think your a noob. You give up on any sort of goals or test because your worst fear is failure.

You avoid obstacles because you view personaility and talent as a fixed thing. Everytime you lose you blame an external force, Protoss, Zerg or Terran OP. This is likely why imbalance is a hot topic, wouldn't it be so nice to be able to blame something other than ourselves for the mistakes. You constantly need to validate yourself because your subconscious urges to live up to your own perceived gosu-ness.

effort and hardwork, wtf, only people who don't have the talent need that. You should be able to do something effortlessly if your truly talented. didn't you see how easy MVP made it look to destroy MC, he's amazing, he's korean, he was born with the RTS gene. People with fixed mindsets don't believe in effort and hardwork or PRACTICE, for that matter because they believe if their truly talented they won't need to practice to succeed. This sounds crazy until you realize what your subconsciousness is actually telling you. I dont need better mechanics, I can beat GM players with my 60 apm, you don't need apm to be good, its all a bunch of junk after all some players only have 100 apm and do fine. While Your average korean progamer has flawless mechanics and and a solid 250 apm.

People with fixed mindsets hate critisicm, they look at criticism as an insult to their innate abilities. A threat to their Gosu status. You become defensive, you don't listen and you always believe your way is the best.

Success with other - Jealousy and ad hominem (people bashing) is common when other encounter success. you become jealous and enraged at the thought of someone being better than you, a ridiculous thought in itself. Ladder BM is so common, usually entwined with blaming some strategy or aspect of game design rather than accept that you got outplayed. If your beaten it was luck, If some player wins a tournaments its because he abused a strategy, if an up an coming player beats your hero is because hes abusive or just lucky. How many people resort to calling Incontrol "incholesterol" or a "noob". Honestly they are jealous he has a beautiful woman (anna prosser) can bench twice their weight, is a witty and salaried player on EG, a head community figure and a very good player.

Wow, anything sound familiar. Odds are if you have a fixed mindset you probably can easily point out these flaws in players like Idra, combat-ex, darkforce or SJTerran. However those with very fixed mindsets will be the last to see these traits in themselves.

Growth Mindsets:

Only a fixed mindset person would believe if they have a fixed mindset that they are doomed to live in their own self fulfilling prophecy. Truth is anyone can change their mindset to a growth mindset, However it takes alot of hard work, not the forte of those with a FM.

IQ test are commonly referred to as a way to evaluate someones intelligence. However did you know that they were invented in the 1800's by a Frenchman as a way to evaluate progress in Parisian schools. That's right if you were a student in Paris you would take a IQ test at the beginning of the year and the end of the year to figure out how much you learned. YOU CAN BECOME MORE INTELLIGENT BY LEARNING AND PUTTING FORTH EFFORT TO ACCOMPLISH YOUR GOALS!????

Growth mindset factors:


You embrace challenges and you are starved to find players to stomp you repeatedly so you can improve. You understand that you must lose, you must suck, You must be in a low league before you can get to a higher league. You must lose before you can win.

you love obstacles, you love to see a strategy that trainwrecks your's. you want your vulnerabilities laid bare and your game-plan demolished, so you can figure out what you were doing that wasn't working. You are not discouraged by failure and you infact look forward to it. Next time your in ladder, try telling your opponent to play his best and absolutely destroy you, and WANT it. You realize that your self-image has nothing to do with whether you win or lose, or what your win loss ratio is on ladder.

Hard work and effort are necessary to master anything and in order to win mlg or have a solid build you will test your build order against different timings for hours and you ENJOY it. You've dotted every T and crossed every I, and you know your responses to 4 gates, stargate all ins, forge fe's, chargelot ht, dark templar, mass vr, collosi, blink stalker 1/2base ect. You practice not because you know you will be gosu if you do it, but because you like to test yourself against any and all challenges.

you love criticism and feedback, you ask other players to look at your replays and take every recommendation and logically evaluate it. You never get mad when someone tells you your build is awful, you simply ask them what can I do to improve it. You don't mind when your clan mates inform you of every mistake you make. Then you start to become critically aware of the difference between yourself and a professional player.

Your are inspired by the success of others, you get nerd chills when you see SlayerS_MMA and Boxer break out crazy blueflame helion strategies. As a Zerg player you are in awe of MVP's meticulous 3 base doom pushes. You love to see Stephano grow as a player and you can't wait to see what Nestea breaks out in the round of 4. When your clanmates or friend get a promotion your are truly happy and excited. You want to inpsire others in your clan, among your friends or even in the sc2 community so that they can grow with you.


Koreans, Ukrainians and Swedes Dominate?


My theory is that the above countries are dominating the e-sports scene because of CULTURE. You are raised as a child in accordance with your culture and your culture in turn develops your mindset. MVP, White_RA and Naniwa are all formidable forces in E-Sports because they have growth mindsets. MVP doesn't 1-1-1 because he see's it as unfair and knows this strategy will be dealt with, so he opts to further develop his macro game and timings. Naniwa does not care any longer if he wins or loses, all he wants to do is become the best. White_ra embraces losing because he knows it will make his game more solid. Many people argue korean's are better than foreigners innately, but it is only due to their work ethic. EG_Huk is a prime example that with a good work ethic and a good training environment you can become as good as any korean, recently making it to the round of 8 in GSL. The secret to success and improvement in sc2 is not a secret at all, its a growth mindset and alot of hard work. Korean's dominate because they practice 60 hours a week, while foreigner's do not. In SOTG episode 47 you can see an empty EG training house at night with a Lone EG_Puma practicing behind incontrol's laughter and facial zoom-in's.

From someone who discovered I had a very fixed mindset, I have since been trying to change in order to keep from sabotaging myself with self fulfilling prophecies, it is very beneficial to try and change your mindset. It has had many benefits beyond just starcraft 2 including my professional and personal life. Also This is quite a long post, but I will say these concepts took me from a medicore diamond player to a mid-high masters players and I overcame my ladder fear. I want to lose now and as a result I've won much more (with alot of time and EffOrt ; ). So to all those with ladder fear and the pro's with korean superiority complexes, get a growth mindset and go practice, alot. One day you may too have top 3 control in the world. :D


"More GG, More Skill" - The Grandpa Toss himself, White_RA



[image loading]


garlicface
Profile Joined April 2010
Canada4196 Posts
September 06 2011 23:45 GMT
#2
Would've appreciated this post more if you didn't blast EffOrt in the first paragraph.
#TeamBuLba
kineticSYN
Profile Joined May 2011
United States909 Posts
September 06 2011 23:47 GMT
#3
decent writeup, but one of the things that immediately stood out...

huk did not make it to ro4 gsl lol, was ro8

the players lost per season is pretty insane stat to see
IMMvp #1 :)
Blazinghand *
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
United States25552 Posts
September 06 2011 23:49 GMT
#4
That's an interesting writeup. I do like the idea that understanding (and even embracing) your own badness is the key to getting better. A wise man knows his own foolishness. I appreciate the whitera quote too he is a baller
When you stare into the iCCup, the iCCup stares back.
TL+ Member
Ares[Effort] *
Profile Blog Joined February 2009
DEMACIA6550 Posts
September 06 2011 23:50 GMT
#5
I am the real Effort
Moderatorgold coin
RedDragon571
Profile Joined March 2011
United States633 Posts
September 06 2011 23:50 GMT
#6
On September 07 2011 08:47 kineticSYN wrote:
decent writeup, but one of the things that immediately stood out...

huk did not make it to ro4 gsl lol, was ro8

the players lost per season is pretty insane stat to see


Ohh indeed, that was top, mvp, july and polt. edited now!

Yeah its quite shocking to see how many people gave up, but can you blame them when theres so many other games with much more instant gratification?
RedDragon571
Profile Joined March 2011
United States633 Posts
September 06 2011 23:52 GMT
#7
On September 07 2011 08:50 Ares[Effort] wrote:
I am the real Effort


Rofl, i've gotten so much crap for this name, It used to be BugRancher, but I changed it to EffOrt to remind myself what it takes to get better.
RedDragon571
Profile Joined March 2011
United States633 Posts
September 06 2011 23:55 GMT
#8
Interestingly enough the post below this is about ladder anxiety :/
Sm3agol
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
United States2055 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-09-06 23:59:38
September 06 2011 23:55 GMT
#9
LOL. Oddly enough I run into to this same mindset in the amatuer-ish music community I know. I put in hours of practice every day, and work hard at it, and easily sound better than most of said people. And they just call me "ridiculously talented", and say stupid things like, "i could never be that good', etc. And I try to say thanks and be polite, but it's so, so, BS, and almost insulting to me.

ANYONE can be world class at anything they are not completely limited physically at. And mere mechanical limitations, aka, "I could never get 250 APM!!!" is not enough to limit you. Sure, you might not ever be legendary/dominant at anything, but you can become world class at anything if you just put the time and effort into it.

You want to be as good as MC/Ronaldo/Perlman? Practice 12 hours a day. And by practice, I don't mean do 4 v 4 ladder/trick shots/show-off pieces for 11 hours and actually grind practice games vs specific builds/practice penalty shots over and over/practice scales over and over. You don't want to practice that hard? Fine, it certainly isn't for everyone, but don't let me hear you spouting this "talent" bs until then.


/rant. Great article OP.

Also, about ladder anxiety and quitting. I'm one of those quitter statistics. I realized soon into playing SC2 that i could never devote enough time to actually be decent at it, aka, diamond/masters. So I started just playing for fun in team games, and while it still is fun, I found games like HoN were just a intesive, but yet at the same time still fun at even low levels. And you don't need to hours and hours of grinding to be good, you just have to consciously be trying to improve your game, and you will get better.
RedDragon571
Profile Joined March 2011
United States633 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-09-07 00:03:03
September 06 2011 23:57 GMT
#10
On September 07 2011 08:55 Sm3agol wrote:
LOL. Oddly enough I run into to this same mindset in the amatuer-ish music community I know. I put in hours of practice every day, and work hard at it, and easily sound better than most of said people. And they just call me "ridiculously talented", and say stupid things like, "i could never be that good', etc. And I try to say thanks and be polite, but it's so, so, BS, and almost insulting to me.

ANYONE can be world class at anything they are not completely limited physically at. And mere mechanical limitations, aka, "I could never get 250 APM!!!" is not enough to limit you. Sure, you might not ever be legendary/dominant at anything, but you can become world class at anything if you just put the time and effort into it.

You want to be as good as MC/Ronaldo/Perlman? Practice 12 hours a day. And by practice, I don't mean do 4 v 4 ladder/trick shots/show-off pieces for 11 hours and actually grind practice games vs specific builds/practice penalty shots over and over/practice scales over and over. You don't want to practice that hard? Fine, it certainly isn't for everyone, but don't let me hear you spouting this "talent" bs until then.


/rant. Great article OP.


Excellent, post, I'm glad to see people are reading and understanding this, I just hope it wasn't to dry to become a post with more reach. :D Thanks! Mindset psychology applies to much more than gaming for sure, its an epidemic in the developed world to have a fixed mindset, but look at our movies and role models. Superheroes, who happened upon some magic bullshit that instantly gave them their miraculous powers. If we had more movies and media which emphasized the developement of someone great, it would be better. Many of the greatest composers sucked ass at music and were never prodigies. They just kept working at it.

Edit: It does indeed take alot of time to stay in good shape at sc2. I think to maintain masters level you need atleast 2-3 hours a day in my experience.
DrBoo
Profile Joined April 2010
Canada1177 Posts
September 06 2011 23:58 GMT
#11
On September 07 2011 08:50 Ares[Effort] wrote:
I am the real Effort


Oh noes

Good article, I had no idea bout the fixed vs Growth mindset.
"DrBoo is an elaborate troll" -Pufftrees
RedDragon571
Profile Joined March 2011
United States633 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-09-07 00:05:47
September 07 2011 00:01 GMT
#12
On September 07 2011 08:58 DrBoo wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 07 2011 08:50 Ares[Effort] wrote:
I am the real Effort


Oh noes

Good article, I had no idea bout the fixed vs Growth mindset.


Well if you've had a fixed mindset all your life like me its quite liberating to find the voice in your head that makes excuses for everything. You can become a man of action rather than idle talk. Idra used to be one of my favorites players but now he just saddens me. I watch him ladder, and he loses, and rather than saying shit, i missed my timing he just says something like terran op, sc2 is bullshit. He won't stay at his level for much longer with that attitude. However maybe that will change when he goes to korea.
PepperoniPiZZa
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
Sierra Leone1660 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-09-07 00:04:51
September 07 2011 00:04 GMT
#13
Reminds me a little of this motivational video:+ Show Spoiler +


I wonder how many sc2 players really give it as much as they possibly can.
Quote?
lee365
Profile Joined December 2010
United States448 Posts
September 07 2011 00:06 GMT
#14
Great Article, I now know I have the most fixed mindset ever and I am going to do my best to change that.
Terran Fighting! NoSoupfOu.517
RedDragon571
Profile Joined March 2011
United States633 Posts
September 07 2011 00:07 GMT
#15
On September 07 2011 09:04 PepperoniPiZZa wrote:
Reminds me a little of this motivational video:+ Show Spoiler +
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4zZ62jNl2YI

I wonder how many sc2 players really give it as much as they possibly can.


LOL, brb im gonna go work out, awesome video!
RedDragon571
Profile Joined March 2011
United States633 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-09-07 00:07:56
September 07 2011 00:07 GMT
#16
On September 07 2011 09:06 lee365 wrote:
Great Article, I now know I have the most fixed mindset ever and I am going to do my best to change that.


This single response makes the hour i spent writing this post completely worth it.
julianto
Profile Joined December 2010
2292 Posts
September 07 2011 00:11 GMT
#17
I had a growth mindset when I started out as a bronze, but as I got promoted, I admit I've developed a fixed mindset. I think it's because it was so much easier to see why I lost, but now, it's like, "you've got to squeeze in more units".

I'm also relieved someone else related ladder fear to the fear of Koreans dominating foreign tournaments. Foreign pros/advocates should not think they've reached their limit, and remove Koreans from their tournaments because of that.
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
BabyToss!
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
Czech Republic588 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-09-07 00:14:40
September 07 2011 00:13 GMT
#18
Thank you for sharing this article, dear OP. I've found myself to be a typical example of 'Fixed mindset' by reading couple of definitions, although I'd argue couple of points against. But yeah, I hope with time, i'll be able to change it, even though I believe it's not uncommon knowledge that it's very difficult task to change one's mindset, especially if it was part of someone for so many years.

Would definitelly read again.
Nowadays a Filthy Casual | Follow your dreams |
RedDragon571
Profile Joined March 2011
United States633 Posts
September 07 2011 00:14 GMT
#19
On September 07 2011 09:11 julianto wrote:
I had a growth mindset when I started out as a bronze, but as I got promoted, I admit I've developed a fixed mindset. I think it's because it was so much easier to see why I lost, but now, it's like, "you've got to squeeze in more units".

I'm also relieved someone else related ladder fear to the fear of Koreans dominating foreign tournaments. Foreign pros/advocates should not think they've reached their limit, and remove Koreans from their tournaments because of that.


Yeah, korean's have the psychological edge, just because foreign pros think their better, its all bullshit. These foreign pro's have to just get over it, and practice as much as the korean's do, and then the playing field is leveled. Foreign players also do not actively try to improve their mechanics. Have you ever seen sjow against a korean, its disqusting watching sjows minerals go up to 900 just causes hes attacking. I increased my apm from 70 in beta in plat league to 200 or so nowadays. It just takes alot of work and focusing on working out anything that slows you down.
RedDragon571
Profile Joined March 2011
United States633 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-09-07 00:18:44
September 07 2011 00:15 GMT
#20
On September 07 2011 09:13 BabyToss! wrote:
Thank you for sharing this article, dear OP. I've found myself to be a typical example of 'Fixed mindset' by reading couple of definitions, although I'd argue couple of points against. But yeah, I hope with time, i'll be able to change it, even though I believe it's not uncommon knowledge that it's very difficult task to change one's mindset, especially if it was part of someone for so many years.

Would definitelly read again.


Story of my life, try that book i listed called Mindset by Carol dweck, some of the most valuable stuff I ever read. Remember not every part of your personaility in necessarily fixed, most people have alot of different growth and fixed parts. It does indeed take alot of work with a lot of remissions, but just never give up.
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