On September 14 2011 17:01 Hexagecz wrote: I wa also in fear of laddering but now i dont give a shit on ladder i play to be better. gg after game. I found out that after i have lost my care about ladder points i can play normaly
Obviously you care, just not in the same way as before. I mean if you don't give a crap, why even bother? Finding good players to custom with would be better if that's the case, i would think.
customs are good for practicing builds, but to actually improve, not really. I mean one game is a bronze the next is a Grandmaster, are you really learning anything?
Obviously finding good practice partners is key to this, but if you do, i can't see a "ladderplayer" ever keeping up. Ladder is good practice for learning how to play against different styles, but as i've heard people say before, facing a strat on ladder and in a competitive game can be so harshly different that it might even hurt you in the end, if you think you can hold stuff off just because you've played against players that execute that strategy, but not as well as your current opponent.
MorroW actually stated something pretty darn close to exactly this when he lost the Assembly finals to ret. He had faced the strategy that ret applied in all games, they were just not as well executed, and thus MorroW thought he could hold it off (or bust through it) with less than actually possible.
Obviously this won't apply to every situation, but you get the point.
Not caring and just playing laddergame after laddergame to improve can easily get your own opinion about your play scewed, regardless of mindset. I've had this happen to me aswell, obviously not on the same scale, but to a notable extent.
I also believe that always trying to win is gonna get you to your goals the fastest, and not caring is pretty far from trying to be a winner. Instead of not caring, i think it would be more beneficial to care more, and try asking some opponents for advice, than just mindlessly playing ladder for improvement.
Now i'm not saying that's what anyone is doing, but that's the feeling i get when someone says they don't care. I might be more of a competitor than others, but not caring is never an option for me.
On September 14 2011 17:01 Hexagecz wrote: I wa also in fear of laddering but now i dont give a shit on ladder i play to be better. gg after game. I found out that after i have lost my care about ladder points i can play normaly
Obviously you care, just not in the same way as before. I mean if you don't give a crap, why even bother? Finding good players to custom with would be better if that's the case, i would think.
customs are good for practicing builds, but to actually improve, not really. I mean one game is a bronze the next is a Grandmaster, are you really learning anything?
Obviously finding good practice partners is key to this, but if you do, i can't see a "ladderplayer" ever keeping up. Ladder is good practice for learning how to play against different styles, but as i've heard people say before, facing a strat on ladder and in a competitive game can be so harshly different that it might even hurt you in the end, if you think you can hold stuff off just because you've played against players that execute that strategy, but not as well as your current opponent.
MorroW actually stated something pretty darn close to exactly this when he lost the Assembly finals to ret. He had faced the strategy that ret applied in all games, they were just not as well executed, and thus MorroW thought he could hold it off (or bust through it) with less than actually possible.
Obviously this won't apply to every situation, but you get the point.
Not caring and just playing laddergame after laddergame to improve can easily get your own opinion about your play scewed, regardless of mindset. I've had this happen to me aswell, obviously not on the same scale, but to a notable extent.
I also believe that always trying to win is gonna get you to your goals the fastest, and not caring is pretty far from trying to be a winner. Instead of not caring, i think it would be more beneficial to care more, and try asking some opponents for advice, than just mindlessly playing ladder for improvement.
Now i'm not saying that's what anyone is doing, but that's the feeling i get when someone says they don't care. I might be more of a competitor than others, but not caring is never an option for me.
Yeah you should definitely care about winning, I just feel like the priority should be given to IMPROVING. Practice partners are great although you have to get good at playing X v X rather than X v "Your practice partner." Ladder, has its limitations granted, but you should never have to fear or get anxious about laddering, or get so titled you go on a massive lose-streak. Mindset is just one part of getting better at starcraft and anything in general. Good points!
On September 14 2011 17:01 Hexagecz wrote: I wa also in fear of laddering but now i dont give a shit on ladder i play to be better. gg after game. I found out that after i have lost my care about ladder points i can play normaly
Obviously you care, just not in the same way as before. I mean if you don't give a crap, why even bother? Finding good players to custom with would be better if that's the case, i would think.
customs are good for practicing builds, but to actually improve, not really. I mean one game is a bronze the next is a Grandmaster, are you really learning anything?
Obviously finding good practice partners is key to this, but if you do, i can't see a "ladderplayer" ever keeping up. Ladder is good practice for learning how to play against different styles, but as i've heard people say before, facing a strat on ladder and in a competitive game can be so harshly different that it might even hurt you in the end, if you think you can hold stuff off just because you've played against players that execute that strategy, but not as well as your current opponent.
MorroW actually stated something pretty darn close to exactly this when he lost the Assembly finals to ret. He had faced the strategy that ret applied in all games, they were just not as well executed, and thus MorroW thought he could hold it off (or bust through it) with less than actually possible.
Obviously this won't apply to every situation, but you get the point.
Not caring and just playing laddergame after laddergame to improve can easily get your own opinion about your play scewed, regardless of mindset. I've had this happen to me aswell, obviously not on the same scale, but to a notable extent.
I also believe that always trying to win is gonna get you to your goals the fastest, and not caring is pretty far from trying to be a winner. Instead of not caring, i think it would be more beneficial to care more, and try asking some opponents for advice, than just mindlessly playing ladder for improvement.
Now i'm not saying that's what anyone is doing, but that's the feeling i get when someone says they don't care. I might be more of a competitor than others, but not caring is never an option for me.
Yeah you should definitely care about winning, I just feel like the priority should be given to IMPROVING. Practice partners are great although you have to get good at playing X v X rather than X v "Your practice partner." Ladder, has its limitations granted, but you should never have to fear or get anxious about laddering, or get so titled you go on a massive lose-streak. Mindset is just one part of getting better at starcraft and anything in general. Good points!
If you fear, or get anxious about your laddering, maybe competition is not the place for you? (not saying you specifically, but people in general) Imagine how you would feel if you ever were in a real competitive game if you can't even gather the courage to ladder. Maybe you should revisit and review your reasons for even playing the game in the fashion you are at the moment?
It might just be me who has alot of friends in sc2, but i can easily pick out atleast two players of each race that would be worthy opponents for me to practice and improve with. Also sticking to either customs or ladder exclusively i don't think would be beneficial, i think your tactical "core" should come from customs, and you use ladder for mostly mechanical improvements, and to keep up with the current trends.
Practicing only on ladder could possibly skew your own understanding of your skill, for both obvious, and previously stated reasons. (poorly executed strategies, major leaps in opponent skillevels from game to game, and loads of other things)
Practicing only through customs could leave you behind the current meta-game trends, and as practicing with someone else mostly focuses on your tactical play, your mechanics could suffer, depending on how you and your partner go about training.
I just typed what i was thinking, didn't read through it, sorry if i made no sense at all.
On September 14 2011 17:01 Hexagecz wrote: I wa also in fear of laddering but now i dont give a shit on ladder i play to be better. gg after game. I found out that after i have lost my care about ladder points i can play normaly
Obviously you care, just not in the same way as before. I mean if you don't give a crap, why even bother? Finding good players to custom with would be better if that's the case, i would think.
customs are good for practicing builds, but to actually improve, not really. I mean one game is a bronze the next is a Grandmaster, are you really learning anything?
Obviously finding good practice partners is key to this, but if you do, i can't see a "ladderplayer" ever keeping up. Ladder is good practice for learning how to play against different styles, but as i've heard people say before, facing a strat on ladder and in a competitive game can be so harshly different that it might even hurt you in the end, if you think you can hold stuff off just because you've played against players that execute that strategy, but not as well as your current opponent.
MorroW actually stated something pretty darn close to exactly this when he lost the Assembly finals to ret. He had faced the strategy that ret applied in all games, they were just not as well executed, and thus MorroW thought he could hold it off (or bust through it) with less than actually possible.
Obviously this won't apply to every situation, but you get the point.
Not caring and just playing laddergame after laddergame to improve can easily get your own opinion about your play scewed, regardless of mindset. I've had this happen to me aswell, obviously not on the same scale, but to a notable extent.
I also believe that always trying to win is gonna get you to your goals the fastest, and not caring is pretty far from trying to be a winner. Instead of not caring, i think it would be more beneficial to care more, and try asking some opponents for advice, than just mindlessly playing ladder for improvement.
Now i'm not saying that's what anyone is doing, but that's the feeling i get when someone says they don't care. I might be more of a competitor than others, but not caring is never an option for me.
Yeah you should definitely care about winning, I just feel like the priority should be given to IMPROVING. Practice partners are great although you have to get good at playing X v X rather than X v "Your practice partner." Ladder, has its limitations granted, but you should never have to fear or get anxious about laddering, or get so titled you go on a massive lose-streak. Mindset is just one part of getting better at starcraft and anything in general. Good points!
If you fear, or get anxious about your laddering, maybe competition is not the place for you? (not saying you specifically, but people in general) Imagine how you would feel if you ever were in a real competitive game if you can't even gather the courage to ladder. Maybe you should revisit and review your reasons for even playing the game in the fashion you are at the moment?
It might just be me who has alot of friends in sc2, but i can easily pick out atleast two players of each race that would be worthy opponents for me to practice and improve with. Also sticking to either customs or ladder exclusively i don't think would be beneficial, i think your tactical "core" should come from customs, and you use ladder for mostly mechanical improvements, and to keep up with the current trends.
Practicing only on ladder could possibly skew your own understanding of your skill, for both obvious, and previously stated reasons. (poorly executed strategies, major leaps in opponent skillevels from game to game, and loads of other things)
Practicing only through customs could leave you behind the current meta-game trends, and as practicing with someone else mostly focuses on your tactical play, your mechanics could suffer, depending on how you and your partner go about training.
I just typed what i was thinking, didn't read through it, sorry if i made no sense at all.
Great points! only thing is disagree with is this
"If you fear, or get anxious about your laddering, maybe competition is not the place for you? (not saying you specifically, but people in general) Imagine how you would feel if you ever were in a real competitive game if you can't even gather the courage to ladder. Maybe you should revisit and review your reasons for even playing the game in the fashion you are at the moment?"
It's very fixed mindset to view people as "not competitive" or "anxious." I believe people can change if they make the effort to, to get over their ladder fear or get over their competitive phobias. Quitting or giving up is easy to do, but you'll never improve as a person if you give up on such simple stuff as starcraft. The stuff about practice partners and such is great though!
First off, great post/article. Do you think there also is a 'mixed' mindset that encompasses traits of both extremes or is there no middle ground when it comes to mindsets?
i love that article i adapt fast so it had huge impact on my life (not only in starcraft) cause month ago i was 99,9% fixed mindest, and now i'm slowly changing into growth one ^^ huge thx op
On September 14 2011 23:26 Harrad wrote: First off, great post/article. Do you think there also is a 'mixed' mindset that encompasses traits of both extremes or is there no middle ground when it comes to mindsets?
Yes, in reality everyone is mixed to varying extents, ton of middle ground!
On September 14 2011 23:37 NoDDiE wrote: i love that article i adapt fast so it had huge impact on my life (not only in starcraft) cause month ago i was 99,9% fixed mindest, and now i'm slowly changing into growth one ^^ huge thx op
I can say from similar experience that it is one of the most liberating things I have experienced, however, don't let limited progress set you back and make you give up. As long as you just keep going you can become better and better, the essence of a growth mindset! :D GLHF sir!
On September 07 2011 12:51 GosuNinja wrote: This was a very interesting and informing post. I wasn't aware of the different mindsets or that you could change them, I am definatly a fixed mindset!
Where do you even start to try to change your mindset?
Honestly it sounds crazy, but you have to talk to yourself, not out loud of course, but if it helps, why not.
Its hard but I found the best way is finding the voice/reasoning in your mind that:
Make excuses for what you can and cannot do, when you encounter a challenge or something difficult.
response: Tell yourself, that you are not limited by what people say you can and cannot do. If your not good at something its because you haven't had enough practice or you never really tried that. Attempt new things.
The part that tries to shelter your ego, by blaming something else other than yourself.
response: You lose a game or something goes wrong. Tell yourself its not luck, its not someone else, its not anything else. If you lost or something went wrong, there is always something you could have done better. Focus on that. If you lose or fail in some way. Don't concentrate or mull in your lose or failure, focus one WHAT YOU LEARNED from that experience. Reflect that because that happened you understand how to deal with that situation and you've grown.
Interprets every personal remark someone makes about you or something you do, as a comment on your person or pride. response: someone just said you supply block yourself all the time. You hear, your a shitty player and a fucking noob. What you should hear, I supply block myself alot, I need to change something in my play, I'm going to iron out my builds a bit more, and focus my next 10 ladder games on not getting supply blocked.
the part that tells you that you don't want to work or practice because you don't have to.
response: You hear, If i have to practice that mean's im not good. You should hear, I need to practice in order to get better, I am going to embrace this challenge and really get myself into this new build or look at some replays and write down some timing attacks to be safe against.
the part that makes you jealous when someone else is doing good, or the part that tries to constantly justify why other people are not better than you in some aspects, or why your a better overall person. Your friend makes master league and your still in diamond. You think, Jeez how'd he get into masters league I'm so much better than him, I beat him all the time. You should think, Wow im really happy my friend got into masters, I wonder what he improved to do it, maybe i can learn from him. I've got a masters practice partner awesome, Lets go run some practice games so I can refine my matchup.
Wow, thank you for this reply. I have been doing everything you posted right here, quite literally actually, and its working! I am actually feeling better about playing games now. I am also using this advice for my school work too. It really changes how i feel when i am doing it.
why saying europeans (scandinavians) ?`sure sweden etc is great but ukraine germany etc are pretty much on a near level, ukraine perhaps even better and there is no other super strong scan country beside sweden (and since scan. is part of europe no reason to name it)
On September 15 2011 14:33 CoR wrote: why saying europeans (scandinavians) ?`sure sweden etc is great but ukraine germany etc are pretty much on a near level, ukraine perhaps even better and there is no other super strong scan country beside sweden (and since scan. is part of europe no reason to name it)
so ... not that nice start of a nice read
In the past scandanavia has been dominating the EU sc2 scene, now its less so, and other countries like portugal, france and germany have solid players. It was meant to be a generalization, I wasn't trying to be too specific, sorry bro
On September 15 2011 14:33 CoR wrote: why saying europeans (scandinavians) ?`sure sweden etc is great but ukraine germany etc are pretty much on a near level, ukraine perhaps even better and there is no other super strong scan country beside sweden (and since scan. is part of europe no reason to name it)
so ... not that nice start of a nice read
In the past scandanavia has been dominating the EU sc2 scene, now its less so, and other countries like portugal, france and germany have solid players. It was meant to be a generalization, I wasn't trying to be too specific, sorry bro
I agree with the first guy. The actual advice for regular players is great but everything else is speculation at best and kinda ruins what cound have been a great OP in my opinion.
On September 15 2011 14:33 CoR wrote: why saying europeans (scandinavians) ?`sure sweden etc is great but ukraine germany etc are pretty much on a near level, ukraine perhaps even better and there is no other super strong scan country beside sweden (and since scan. is part of europe no reason to name it)
so ... not that nice start of a nice read
In the past scandanavia has been dominating the EU sc2 scene, now its less so, and other countries like portugal, france and germany have solid players. It was meant to be a generalization, I wasn't trying to be too specific, sorry bro
I agree with the first guy. The actual advice for regular players is great but everything else is speculation at best and kinda ruins what cound have been a great OP in my opinion.
Well, it is speculation, about the relation between korean players ladder fear and mindset, however the main point was to help people with mindset. Of course the korean culture part is all opinion, that's all, can I post my opinion on a forum TL ?
On September 14 2011 17:01 Hexagecz wrote: I wa also in fear of laddering but now i dont give a shit on ladder i play to be better. gg after game. I found out that after i have lost my care about ladder points i can play normaly
Obviously you care, just not in the same way as before. I mean if you don't give a crap, why even bother? Finding good players to custom with would be better if that's the case, i would think.
customs are good for practicing builds, but to actually improve, not really. I mean one game is a bronze the next is a Grandmaster, are you really learning anything?
Obviously finding good practice partners is key to this, but if you do, i can't see a "ladderplayer" ever keeping up. Ladder is good practice for learning how to play against different styles, but as i've heard people say before, facing a strat on ladder and in a competitive game can be so harshly different that it might even hurt you in the end, if you think you can hold stuff off just because you've played against players that execute that strategy, but not as well as your current opponent.
MorroW actually stated something pretty darn close to exactly this when he lost the Assembly finals to ret. He had faced the strategy that ret applied in all games, they were just not as well executed, and thus MorroW thought he could hold it off (or bust through it) with less than actually possible.
Obviously this won't apply to every situation, but you get the point.
Not caring and just playing laddergame after laddergame to improve can easily get your own opinion about your play scewed, regardless of mindset. I've had this happen to me aswell, obviously not on the same scale, but to a notable extent.
I also believe that always trying to win is gonna get you to your goals the fastest, and not caring is pretty far from trying to be a winner. Instead of not caring, i think it would be more beneficial to care more, and try asking some opponents for advice, than just mindlessly playing ladder for improvement.
Now i'm not saying that's what anyone is doing, but that's the feeling i get when someone says they don't care. I might be more of a competitor than others, but not caring is never an option for me.
Yeah you should definitely care about winning, I just feel like the priority should be given to IMPROVING. Practice partners are great although you have to get good at playing X v X rather than X v "Your practice partner." Ladder, has its limitations granted, but you should never have to fear or get anxious about laddering, or get so titled you go on a massive lose-streak. Mindset is just one part of getting better at starcraft and anything in general. Good points!
If you fear, or get anxious about your laddering, maybe competition is not the place for you? (not saying you specifically, but people in general) Imagine how you would feel if you ever were in a real competitive game if you can't even gather the courage to ladder. Maybe you should revisit and review your reasons for even playing the game in the fashion you are at the moment?
It might just be me who has alot of friends in sc2, but i can easily pick out atleast two players of each race that would be worthy opponents for me to practice and improve with. Also sticking to either customs or ladder exclusively i don't think would be beneficial, i think your tactical "core" should come from customs, and you use ladder for mostly mechanical improvements, and to keep up with the current trends.
Practicing only on ladder could possibly skew your own understanding of your skill, for both obvious, and previously stated reasons. (poorly executed strategies, major leaps in opponent skillevels from game to game, and loads of other things)
Practicing only through customs could leave you behind the current meta-game trends, and as practicing with someone else mostly focuses on your tactical play, your mechanics could suffer, depending on how you and your partner go about training.
I just typed what i was thinking, didn't read through it, sorry if i made no sense at all.
Great points! only thing is disagree with is this
"If you fear, or get anxious about your laddering, maybe competition is not the place for you? (not saying you specifically, but people in general) Imagine how you would feel if you ever were in a real competitive game if you can't even gather the courage to ladder. Maybe you should revisit and review your reasons for even playing the game in the fashion you are at the moment?"
It's very fixed mindset to view people as "not competitive" or "anxious." I believe people can change if they make the effort to, to get over their ladder fear or get over their competitive phobias. Quitting or giving up is easy to do, but you'll never improve as a person if you give up on such simple stuff as starcraft. The stuff about practice partners and such is great though!
"Maybe you should revisit and review your reasons for even playing the game in the fashion you are at the moment?" Was supposed to be the emphazised part, as beeing 'afraid' to que up can't be any fun at all, but surely its possible to overcome.
On September 21 2011 11:19 beachbeachy wrote: Inspiring post. This will help me solve my own mindset problems in all aspects of my life =)
Awesome, Thanks! Remember its not easy to change your mindset, nothing rewarding is very easy. It takes alot of catching yourself having bad habits
I admire what you're doing here and you have given great advice but you should watch out about sounding too optimistic about everything. There are things that are both easy and rewarding: watching movies, reading books, sex, eating... (I could go on for a long time). I, and I'm sure others, stop listening when people start breaking out a different cliche like "nothing rewarding is very easy" whenever they try to make a point. Please just stick to your own thoughts (because they are worthwhile) instead of going for the easy fix with cliches.
Nice post. I think I have a growth mindset. =) At least I never shy away from a 0-20 beatdown vs friends or online. They always run away and say they're bored when I start to learn to beat them. =)
Maybe it's all those years of my childhood slamming my head into a brick wall a.k.a. trying to beat those super hard NES games.
EPT
Finding good players to custom with would be better if that's the case, i would think.
?
