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Quite a few people have been disagreeing with the science of this thread. This is not the place to debate how scientific this theory is. TL is not a place to create scientific articles, but a place scientific articles. Everyone should understand solid science is done in scientific journals and not forum post. If you truly desire to put together arguments based upon science, the cite scientific psychology journal ect that disagree with these concepts. However, simply putting up ad hominem attacks and a few opinions about why you disagree with these is nothing more than hypocritical. The argument in this thread is entirely based upon the science in the Book Mindset and the research of Carol Dweck, who has a PH.D from yale and teaches their I believe. Here are some studies I am referring you too if you'd like to evaluate these claims more closely. However, Railing against how unscientific an article on a Starcraft 2 forum, its pretty pointless. I don't have the time to write a scientific study nor would people actually dispute it in a scientific way if i did. Here are some sources you can look at if you are interested below. However, I would guess a lot of people getting mad at this thread aren't taking a critical look at their selves, and are continuing the cycle of blaming everyone but themselves for their ladder fear and perceived inferiority or superiority.
For those that are more interested in the science.
Deiner, C. I., & Dweck, C.S. (1978). An analysis of learned helplessness: Continuous changes in performance, strategy and achievement cognitions following failure. Journal of Personality and Social Psychology, 36, 451-462.
Deiner, C. I, & Dweck, C.S. (1980). An analysis of learned helplessness: (II) The processing of success. Journal of Personality and Social Psychology, 39, 940-952.
Dweck, C. S. (1975). The role of expectations and attributions in the alleviation of learned helplessness. Journal of Personality and Social Psychology, 31, 674-685.
Dweck, C. S. (1999a). Caution-praise can be dangerous. American Educator, 23(1), 4-9.
Dweck, C. S. (1999b). Self-theories: Their role in motivation, personality and development. Philadelphia : The Psychology Press.
Dweck, C.S., Chiu, C., & Hong, Y. (1995). Implicit theories and their role in judgments and reactions: A world from two perspectives. Psychological Inquiry, 6, 267-285.
Dweck, C. S., & Reppucci, N. D. (1973). Learned helplessness and reinforcement responsibility in children. Journal of Personality and Social Psychology, 25 , 109-116.
Manner up plz.
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On September 12 2011 04:08 cydial wrote:http://ehcg.djgamblore.com/index.phpNotice how after Idra (21) the next closest American is Select... at 41... Everyone else is a foreigner.... o.0
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On September 12 2011 04:16 RedDragon571 wrote:
Quite a few people have been disagreeing with the science of this thread. This is not the place to debate how scientific this theory is. TL is not a place to create scientific articles, but a place scientific articles. Everyone should understand solid science is done in scientific journals and not forum post. If you truly desire to put together arguments based upon science, the cite scientific psychology journal ect that disagree with these concepts. However, simply putting up ad hominem attacks and a few opinions about why you disagree with these is nothing more than hypocritical. The argument in this thread is entirely based upon the science in the Book Mindset and the research of Carol Dweck, who has a PH.D from yale and teaches their I believe. Here are some studies I am referring you too if you'd like to evaluate these claims more closely. However, Railing against how unscientific an article on a Starcraft 2 forum, its pretty pointless. I don't have the time to write a scientific study nor would people actually dispute it in a scientific way if i did. Here are some sources you can look at if you are interested below. However, I would guess a lot of people getting mad at this thread aren't taking a critical look at their selves, and are continuing the cycle of blaming everyone but themselves for their ladder fear and perceived inferiority or superiority.
For those that are more interested in the science.
Deiner, C. I., & Dweck, C.S. (1978). An analysis of learned helplessness: Continuous changes in performance, strategy and achievement cognitions following failure. Journal of Personality and Social Psychology, 36, 451-462.
Deiner, C. I, & Dweck, C.S. (1980). An analysis of learned helplessness: (II) The processing of success. Journal of Personality and Social Psychology, 39, 940-952.
Dweck, C. S. (1975). The role of expectations and attributions in the alleviation of learned helplessness. Journal of Personality and Social Psychology, 31, 674-685.
Dweck, C. S. (1999a). Caution-praise can be dangerous. American Educator, 23(1), 4-9.
Dweck, C. S. (1999b). Self-theories: Their role in motivation, personality and development. Philadelphia : The Psychology Press.
Dweck, C.S., Chiu, C., & Hong, Y. (1995). Implicit theories and their role in judgments and reactions: A world from two perspectives. Psychological Inquiry, 6, 267-285.
Dweck, C. S., & Reppucci, N. D. (1973). Learned helplessness and reinforcement responsibility in children. Journal of Personality and Social Psychology, 25 , 109-116.
Manner up plz.
Sorry, but no. You can't on the one hand claim that you have a scientific explanation for an observed phenomenon, and then on the other hand say that it doesn't need to be held up to the rigorous standards of science because it's on TL. If this isn't the appropriate forum for this discussion, then don't start the thread.
As it stands, what you have posted is not an "explanation" of anything, it is a weakly constructed hypothesis that falls somewhere between pseudo and actual science, but masquerades as the latter. Have you actually tested this hypothesis? No.
Do you have any evidence to support the foundations of your hypothesis? No.
Have you conducted any study (or can you cite any study) that shows that Koreans, Ukrainians, and Swedes are inherently of more "growth" than "fixed" mindsets (if there is even an appropriate means of quantifying those traits)?
And to actually test your hypothesis, are there any other countries with "growth" mindsets that are not successful at SC2?
Here's another hypothesis: Starcraft became more popular in some countries (partly due to wealth, partly due to an existing gaming culture, and partly just down to chance). In those countries where it became most popular, players tended to train harder. In some of those countries a culture of discipline led to more refined training methods, which created a positive feedback loop in terms of generating stronger competition. If this hypothesis plausible? At least as plausible as yours.
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Why is it that everyone blames ladder fear for the diminished playerbase? More importantly, why do people misinterpret this as a terrible thing?
The reason why people stop playing is because they find the game too difficult. When Starcraft II was released, it had already been very heavily hyped up in the gaming scene. Of course, a huge amount of players purchased the game on release, even those who knew nothing about the game whatsoever. After getting their butt kicked and realizing that the game was a difficult one to learn, they decided it wasn't worth the effort to play.
The diminishing playerbase is nothing more than the weeding out of new players without the commitment or motivation to learn such a complicated game.
Many people see this as a bad thing: the game is turning away new players, and the SCII community won't grow. This isn't true: a huge amount of people who don't actually play Starcraft watch and follow the SC scene. Though they lack the motivation to pick up this terribly difficult game, they still enjoy it enough to watch professionals play.
Though the playerbase is shrinking, the SCII community is growing.
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Why are 100% of the people leaving the game attributed to fear of laddering? Some people think the game sucks. Some people think RTS's suck. Some people don't have the motivation or drive to get a higher rank because they play for fun, and fun only. And most people will have left simply because they found a game they're more interested in or just don't have the time anymore.
Season one had the most players because it was new and shiny. And had a single player story line to keep RPers interested.
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I actually thought this was a decent write-up until I hit this part:
How many people resort to calling Incontrol "incholesterol" or a "noob". Honestly they are jealous he has a beautiful woman (anna prosser) can bench twice their weight, is a witty and salaried player on EG, a head community figure and a very good player.
LOL! Really? Are you some Incontrol fanboy that just wanted to throw this in? This part pretty much invalidates your post since it's not even tangentially related to everything else your post. The reason we hate Incontrol is because he's a two-faced whiner. He will complain about people talking shit about him on the forums and tell people to stop, then he'll go and laugh when he hears drewbie is going to Korea. He tells people to not restream NASL because they're killing e-sports then he'll go and restream GSL. He also talks all the time about how he's a pro player and how good he is yet he will go 0-5 at every MLG he attends and still throw his 4th place at Dallas in everyone's face. That is why no one likes him.
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On September 12 2011 00:31 1OneLovE wrote:
Good read, but how does one simply `get a growth mindset`? :o
You're born with it, or you're not.
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On September 12 2011 04:19 Skamtet wrote:o.0
What about number 11, HuK?
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On September 12 2011 04:16 RedDragon571 wrote:
Quite a few people have been disagreeing with the science of this thread. This is not the place to debate how scientific this theory is. TL is not a place to create scientific articles, but a place scientific articles. Everyone should understand solid science is done in scientific journals and not forum post. If you truly desire to put together arguments based upon science, the cite scientific psychology journal ect that disagree with these concepts. However, simply putting up ad hominem attacks and a few opinions about why you disagree with these is nothing more than hypocritical. The argument in this thread is entirely based upon the science in the Book Mindset and the research of Carol Dweck, who has a PH.D from yale and teaches their I believe. Here are some studies I am referring you too if you'd like to evaluate these claims more closely. However, Railing against how unscientific an article on a Starcraft 2 forum, its pretty pointless. I don't have the time to write a scientific study nor would people actually dispute it in a scientific way if i did. Here are some sources you can look at if you are interested below. However, I would guess a lot of people getting mad at this thread aren't taking a critical look at their selves, and are continuing the cycle of blaming everyone but themselves for their ladder fear and perceived inferiority or superiority.
For those that are more interested in the science.
Deiner, C. I., & Dweck, C.S. (1978). An analysis of learned helplessness: Continuous changes in performance, strategy and achievement cognitions following failure. Journal of Personality and Social Psychology, 36, 451-462.
Deiner, C. I, & Dweck, C.S. (1980). An analysis of learned helplessness: (II) The processing of success. Journal of Personality and Social Psychology, 39, 940-952.
Dweck, C. S. (1975). The role of expectations and attributions in the alleviation of learned helplessness. Journal of Personality and Social Psychology, 31, 674-685.
Dweck, C. S. (1999a). Caution-praise can be dangerous. American Educator, 23(1), 4-9.
Dweck, C. S. (1999b). Self-theories: Their role in motivation, personality and development. Philadelphia : The Psychology Press.
Dweck, C.S., Chiu, C., & Hong, Y. (1995). Implicit theories and their role in judgments and reactions: A world from two perspectives. Psychological Inquiry, 6, 267-285.
Dweck, C. S., & Reppucci, N. D. (1973). Learned helplessness and reinforcement responsibility in children. Journal of Personality and Social Psychology, 25 , 109-116.
Manner up plz.
"This is not the place to debate how scientific this theory is."
Are you kidding me? You're basically saying we're not allowed to refute your theory because this isn't the place to do so and we're not being scientific enough, despite the fact that you posted a supposedly scientific theory here without adhering to the strict standards you demand of us. You also keep telling us we are launching ad hominem attacks against you (which isn't true), and then proceeding to argue ad hominem yourself. Your last sentence before the citations is blatantly ad hominem, and you've repeated that point about 5 times now. You can't attack the personal motives of those arguing against you - that's ad hominem.
By the way, none of those citations have anything to do with Starcraft or Korean/Scandinavian cultures. You have not put in 5% of the effort required to demonstrate a connection between Korean/Scandinavian cultures and growth mindsets, among other things.
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Ares[Effort]
DEMACIA6550 Posts
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I don't think sub-master ladder players with "ladder anxiety" don't play because the VERY best of the best tend to be korean. Differentiating between euro/NA btw... not sure how I feel about that.
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I actually do want to see if a study can be done, to examine if certain people are born with a predisposition to have a growth mindset.
There's a belief that work ethic can be attributed to genetics.
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Great write-up, i think that you're totally right on this one. All the North Americans doesn't seem to practice that much. If you look at DeMuslim, he's from England and he practices alot. He is getting vastly better by the day.
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On September 12 2011 04:16 RedDragon571 wrote:
... However, I would guess a lot of people getting mad at this thread aren't taking a critical look at their selves, and are continuing the cycle of blaming everyone but themselves for their ladder fear and perceived inferiority or superiority.
...
Manner up plz.
On September 11 2011 19:12 RedDragon571 wrote:
It seems the few that seem to rail out against this thread, are the ones that this is hitting too close too home.
You post crap like this and psychoanalyze InControl, a person you only know from posts and his shows online. And you totally ignore the posts that provide critique to your theory. Sound like you need to grow up and learn to handle criticism.
Like i said earlier in this thread. The lack of 1vs1 players has a much simpler explanation than your whole growth/fixed mindset thing. It's that most people play online games socially, and 1vs1 is not social. There's also the fact that everyone has different likes, playing to improve and work on your game might not be in the interest of the majority. Maybe people play games to enjoy themselves and just have fun with friends? Doesn't that sound more plausible?
As an example, look at LoL, Halo or CS. I'm pretty sure the reason those games have a shitload of players is due to the fact that you play them with friends and that they're much more social games. SC2 1vs1 has no interaction more than the exchange of words at the start and when you lose you instantly quit to join another game. I'm pretty sure alot of people are put off by that.
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If you dont like playing ladder because you are afrade to lose, DONT PLAY. It is litterally that simple. Dont feel bad for blizzard if you dont play their game. They cant force you to stay, and if you dont like this game then obviously they arent doing anything for you.
I recommend playing Tribes Ascend and diablo 3 when they come out. both look extremely good.
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I actually thought this was a decent response until I hit this part:
On September 12 2011 04:45 Robonord wrote:I actually thought this was a decent write-up until I hit this part: Show nested quote +How many people resort to calling Incontrol "incholesterol" or a "noob". Honestly they are jealous he has a beautiful woman (anna prosser) can bench twice their weight, is a witty and salaried player on EG, a head community figure and a very good player. LOL! Really? Are you some Incontrol fanboy that just wanted to throw this in? This part pretty much invalidates your post since it's not even tangentially related to everything else your post. The reason we hate Incontrol is because...
LOL! Really? Are you some Incontrol hater that just wanted to throw this in? This part pretty much invalidates your post since you hypocritically went off on a tangent to bash iNc while saying "we hate Incontrol" as if you are a representative for a group that spends their time hating on him.
If you had just left it at saying that going off on a tangent about incontrol ruined his credibility, it would have been fine, but instead you called him out on going on a tangent by praising incontrol, while you then go on an tangent and start bashing him when the details weren't necessary at all.
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On September 11 2011 13:47 LuciferSC wrote:Show nested quote +On September 11 2011 13:36 DyEnasTy wrote:On September 07 2011 09:04 PepperoniPiZZa wrote:Reminds me a little of this motivational video: + Show Spoiler +I wonder how many sc2 players really give it as much as they possibly can. So was he successful? Love the video, and sir, did u even watch the whole thing before u bothered replying? 'Work at it 'till you don't even care about the money, that's success'
why yes rude sir I watched the entire thing. I get the "inspirational" part. But did he achieve his goal? His first goal was to make money. What was it after that? His goal looked to be playing pro football, or was his goal just to do some cool exercises after?
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Its weird because i just came to the same conclusion not long ago, realising when i lose its because of me i need to get better if i cant even beat the people around me what hope have i got of beating the Pro's! practice practice practice
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Thanks for this thread. I'm one of those people who have had success in everything with minimal effort but that can only get me so far. I always gave myself reason to be unfocused and not work hard for anything. This gave me a lot to think about, and I'm working to change my mindset starting today so maybe you'll see more of me in the future.
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EPT
