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edit : I guess my title sux, as my point is that bo3s at the very end of the tourneys are not enough, and not that their whole format is not good.
edit : I want to clarify that it's not a big deal, those tournaments are awesome already. My goal is not to say those tourneys are bad. Because they are good (more than good). I just want organizers to consider it and see if bo5 for semis and finals could fit in the current schedule.
And I'm not talking about group play, or extended series, but about the final brackets.
Let's take a look at NASL, Dreamhack, MLG, and to a lesser degree GSL :
- NASL :  North American Star League Season 1/Main Bracket
3 months of group play, then you travel to USA and you can go back home (and home can be 10000km away) with only one best of 3 played.
- MLG : 2011 MLG Pro Circuit/Columbus
2 days of intense group play, and again only best of 3s, grand finals included. The last few MLG finals had a duration of less than 30 minutes.
- Dreamhack : DreamHack Summer 2011
2 days of intense group play, then again single elimination best of 3s. Only the grand final is a best of 5.
The GSL is nearly ok, but it seems they'll have best of 3 round of 8 this season instead of best of 5, which would be a shame (edit : seems it's not true). The bo3 ro16 of the super tournament were already disappointing, the matchups were big and were deserving bo5.
Let's look at the TSL : bo3 for ro32, bo5 for ro16-8 then bo7 for ro4 and later. This is what makes a tournament epic.
I can't imagine that this "bo3 everywhere" policy is there for schedule reasons (edit : wrong). Yesterday, the DH could have had bo5 brackets and bo7 finals with the exact same schedule. The MLG has some wait time between games, so I don't think it's a schedule problem. I think the tournament organizers just didn't really think about how best of 3 finals anticlimactic, and even random, are.
My point is, I can't find any practical argument to defend those bo3 policies (I'm sure there are tho, but do they outweight the enormous cons ?), so please, Mr MLG, Mr DH and Mr NASL, give us real tournament formats ! We deserve them, your tournaments deserves them and the players deserves them.
TLDR : no more best of 3s final brackets of major tournaments, please.
edit : I'm only talking about final stages of the tournaments, where only a few matches are left to play and elimination is direct.
edit : interesting post by Wheat
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=9894982
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Russian Federation304 Posts
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agree i,d like to know the issues with the longer series, there must be a reason, schedules isnt a good one imho
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GSL is easily the worst in terms of commitment to what you get out of it. If you lose first (assuming you've already got into Code A/S) then you can't play again for a month. And you're in Korea. And you've probably already setup accomodation/whatever for that month. It really limits other tournaments you can compete in.
MLG is not single elimination. Its double. But it is all bo3 throughout, I wouldn't be adverse to seeing a change to that for finals, but it would screw up the extended series rule. On top of that, its a tightly run tournament, and has trouble keeping to time anyway.
Also, I think the GSL finals are proof that a bo7 does not = epic games. Some of the best matches in SC2 have been bo3's.
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My Counter Arguement
But you have to remember that MLG and Dreamhack are stamina events also so to add more to that could just be over exhausting and if you don't think so then try playing a mass amount of games over the course of 2 days and then playing even more games back to back. Might actually make you go insane. Bo5 Series are very very exhausting. MVP admitted to losing ot Tester in the GSTL because of how exhausted he was after playing the first 4 games. Now yes Tester did come out fresh but playing that many games back too back after already having 2 longs days of barely eating and sleeping may not give the best tournament results or games. Might see a lot of cheesing.
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I, too would love to see more games by these epic players!
Only.... I can imagine that these huge LAN tournaments are a major strain on the players.
At MLG, in particular, if you're rising through the open bracket, only to get seeded into the Loser's Bracket after group play, that's one HELL of a lot of games to play!
3 Days of games is exhausting enough, especially for those players who have jetlag because they flew half-way across the world, with only best of 3's. How much more so would they be if they were faced with playing an additional two games per round?
I can understand GSL upping the ro8 to bo5. I'm down for that, but these live tourneys.... I don't know...It would be more than ok by me, but only if the players overwhelmingly supported it.
I can't wait to hear from them.
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totally agree. Really anti-climactic when following MLG/DH specially in the group stages, all the excitment and tension. Seeing the playoff groups, getting my beer and sandwich ready. And then the whole thing is over in 20-30 minutes because of one way or another bo3.
Finals should ALWAYS be bo7. I can accept b05. Bo3 is a joke.
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I'm only talking about finals bracket tho. Yesterday, the Dreamhack (which was an awesome event, I'm not trying to say those events sux, I love them) ro16 and onward, which featured super strong players playing for high stakes, was bo3 only, which was super disappointing. How can a semi final be a best of 3 ?
In live events, those brackets are on the final day. In DH case, players have all the time to be in good form.
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I agree with you that NASL and MLG formats stink. NASL has way too many games which makes alot of them feel unimportant. MLG is the worst of all by having non seeded players having to play up to 3x as many games as seeded players. It also features the most stupid rule there is in the extended series rule. GSL sucks a little for having bo1 in the pool phase and having a dreadful up/down system, barrier to entry is way too high as players need to go through code A qualifier and code A to get there while even the worst code S players can hang around way too long, for example by both being picked by the code A winner (so one of the crappy players remains).
DH was pretty good though, lots of spare time for the players, almost continuous games and quite a fair system by having good pools and then knockout play without having too many uninteresting matches. Knockout system could use Bo5 from ro8 or ro4 instead of only the finals but it wasn't too bad imo. Casting the games consecutively instead of being on this by the hour schedule would be slightly better imo as it makes it a bit more fun to watch directly but then again this way it was easy to tune in for one specific match if you liked to.
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You forget that DH and MLG are 3 day events and the schduel is really tight sometimes
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Totally agreed.
Although it would eat up all of my free time to watch everything 
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I think when a MLG rep (either Lee or Sundance) talked on SOTG about maps and such, they had a real concern about big maps taking too long. Image, a truly epic game om TDA takes atleast 30 minutes, maybe 45. Add 5-10 minutes between maps for setting up stuff, players getting something to drink etc. Then you need a commercial maybe. That's allmost 1 hour pr. map for a BO3. Okay we allmost never see 30-45 minutes games, but if we get a BO5 or BO7 final, i think it's safe to assume that atleast 2 are gonna be that with the rest averaging 15-20 minutes. That's still allmost 2.5 - 3 hours of a final. If DH had a 3 hour SC2 final, the 2-3 hour CS final that was comming up after it, was going late...
I think it's safe to assume it's all because of scheduling. Is it good? No a BO5 final would atleast be good, but scheduling doesn't allow for it.
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i think bo3 is fine until ro4, then for the semi finals and final i'd like to see more than bo3 ! And i also think guys are underestimating the scheduling problem, imagine how a bo5 TvT can screw the schedule if played to early in the tournament :D
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BO3s allow for squeezing 4 match-ups for a single broadcast, that's why GSL keeps it for ro16. It's the difference between 4 days of bo16 rather than 8 days. Remember how bad the bo7 semifinals were?
BO3 in NASL octofinals is necessary because the first round need to be squeezed within the first day of the lan. All players deserve a day to prepare for their ro8 matchup and there's no way to extend the venue rental.
MLG final is not a single bo3, it is either a bo7 extended series or two sets of bo3, in case the lower bracket player won the first set. How else would you design a final in a double-elimination bracket?
Taking a minute to think about limitations a admin have to work with, then you'll understand why decisions are made like this.
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totally aggree, DH seems to be the ones doing the best job with it as a lan.
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As a spectator, I disagree. Matches feel drawn out and tedious if nothing exciting happens, and more games played adds to that feeling. Bo3 is enough to actually give some good games, and it will never really feel tedious if one player outclasses the other. Watching a slow 4-0 grand finals in GSL with one player severely outclassing the other is not really fun. I find it more interesting to actually watch more matchups rather than more games in one matchup, i.e. I'd rather watch Player A vs B and C vs D and E vs F in Bo3s than just A vs B and C vs D in Bo5s.
Double Elimination is also quite bad from a spectator perspective. When you get to the finals you either need to have extended series, a 1-0 lead for the person coming from the winner bracket, or a double BoX in the event that the person from the loser bracket wins the first set of matches. It really just provides anticlimax, "Oh wow he won that 3-0! ...... but now he has to win again! >_>"
I prefer the Single Elimination Bo3 all the way until a Bo5 finals. But preferrably group play until the quarters if not even the semis.
Though I can def. understand that players want as many chances as possible to prove themselves and reduce the "randomness" of having a bad draw and meeting a tough opponent early on.
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I think Dreamhack should go for BO5's in the Playoffs and have them all on Monday? I did not really "get" the Deal with having the finals on Monday when you still mainly have BO3's.
Even with the full RO16 on Monday this could work out timewise?
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I like the single elimination format, because it gives each series more weight. do or die! sometimes it can be unlucky, but that`s something everybody has to deal with. The same can happen in tennis, soccer, basketball and so on. I would also go this far and say eSport is in a better position than real sport, because there are more tournaments and if some player gets unlucky in one tournament he can redeem himself (often) within weeks.
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On June 21 2011 21:06 Primadog wrote:
BO3s allow for squeezing 4 match-ups for a single broadcast, that's why GSL keeps it for ro16. It's the difference between 4 days of bo16 rather than 8 days. Remember how bad the bo7 semifinals were?
BO3 in NASL octofinals is necessary because the first round need to be squeezed within the first day of the lan. All players deserve a day to prepare for their ro8 matchup and there's no way to extend the venue rental.
MLG final is not a single bo3, it is either a bo7 extended series or two sets of bo3, in case the lower bracket player won the first set.
Taking a minute to think about limitations a admin have to work with, then you'll understand why decisions are made like this.
I took that minute, but still don't understand. (I can understand the GSL case, which is a minor concern)
What I can't understand is DH semi finals with a 25 minutes duration or MLG finals with a 30 minutes duration. It's the final match of the weekend, there is no schedule constraints anymore.
In NASL case, your saying that the format of a 100k tournament will place broadcasting constraints over fairness constraints, which I strongly disagree with. The players know their ro8 matchup several weeks in advance.
edit : again, lot of players are missing the point, I'm not against direct elimination, I'm against stupid best of 3s in the LATE phase of tournaments.
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EPT
