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[Balance] creating my own PTR

Forum Index > SC2 Maps & Custom Games
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the p00n
Profile Joined September 2010
Netherlands615 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-05-06 03:46:00
May 06 2011 03:33 GMT
#1
Hello everyone,

I know that discussing balance is generally frowned upon and seen as a taboo topic. However, I was thinking of creating a custom map myself and implementing balance changes. This could be both fun and interesting and I would like to get the opinion of tl.net.

I will try to update this topic as much as possible (mainly by editing the OP) with the balance or game issues I have detected (by listening to what everyone has to say about the subject, mainly pro players) and present possible solutions. If most of the community can agree on some things, I can implement the changes in a custom map and we can all play some test games and see how it works out :-).

The reason I posted this in strategy discussion and not in custom maps is because I'm mainly focusing on strategy and not on the actual map design - I am probably going to copy an existing map (i.e. metalopolis) and tweak it slightly. I'm willing to invest plenty of time on this and don't want to dump a lot of content straight away, so I can focus on one thing at a time.

From what I've gathered, most people seem to feel that there is an issue with zerg early scouting. I have written something and would like your opinion on the matter. Be warned that this is obviously theorycraft and that I have no intention of convincing anyone of imbalance or balance, I simply want to improve my understanding of the game and would like to see what comes out of this thread and discussion, so please don't treat this like a monthly colossus-is-imba-thread or such. Please refrain from only posting your opinion without back-up (i.e. 'these are great changes' or 'nerf [x]? lol, you have no idea what you are talking about'). I also make some assumptions which I state as fact (simply because it doesn't flow very well when you have to read 'imo' every other sentence). Keep in mind this is all my opinion!

Part one:

Zerg

1) Poor scouting (mainly vs. Terran)

Zerg is a race that heavily relies on adapting and defending. The early game is especially volatile for zerg, having no general build that’s safe against most strategies. The lack of scouting is very noticeable in ZvT, especially against 1 base ‘cheese/all-in’ builds. A six or seven barracks build from 1 base (in vogue right now due to TLO’s recent usage in multiple tournaments) requires a completely different approach then, say, a 1 rax expansion, even though both look the same up to a certain point.

Generally, it can often be very hard to distinguish the early terran builds from one another. On most maps and in certain positions, you are able to get a read off by scouting the gases with your overlord, and you may even catch their production facilities and know exactly what they are doing at the cost of an overlord. However, this is not always possible. If you are able to get a solid read off by i.e. an overlord scout in 50% of your games, you will still be in the dark the other 50% of your games (i.e. when your opponent doesn’t forget to put a marine at the cliff, or raises his depot in time, …,).

Most tournaments and cups are played in a bo1, bo3 or bo5 format – losing one to three games can mean elimination from the entire tournament. If responding in a certain way to information you have collected throughout the game nets you a 65 to 75% winrate, this may still not be acceptable in a bo3 or bo5 format. Unlike in poker – where you play thousands and thousands of hands, meaning that even a consistent 55% winrate against a certain type of play is acceptable – you have only 2 to 4 games in a big starcraft 2 tournament setting, where you can easily lose the series even though you should win according to odds. This can be especially tricky when your opponent isn’t that great of a player and you are uncertain whether you have to attribute his low SCV count or not grabbing his gases at his natural to poor gameplay or a 2 base timing push.

Although this specific example is not the best, there are plenty of situations where you are forced to assume something from the information you are getting, which in many cases will most likely be [x] (~75%) but can also be [y] (~25%), and there is absolutely no way for you to tell without either cheating or being telepathic.

Possible solutions

• Give the overlords an ability that significantly boosts their speed (i.e. 1.88), but auto-destructs after a set period of time (i.e. 20 seconds). This ability could be named ‘overdrive’ or ‘helium inflation’ and may or may not require a small mineral cost. It may also require a certain amount of tech (i.e. a spawning pool) EDIT: this is an ability that can be activated on an individual overlord, obviously
• Reduce the Spine Crawler and Spore Crawler building time and root time. However, early pool Spine Crawler rushes in ZvZ may become too strong when the build time of the Spine Crawler is increased. Additional changes should occur to counteract this if this would turn out to be the case (i.e. giving workers 100% bonus damage against structures, which would also help against bunker rushes and photon cannons)
• Create better maps, allowing for an easier way to scout your opponent (it is fairly easy to scout the gas timings on close air shattered temple for example, due to the high ground behind the main) or circumventing the scouting issue in another way (i.e. by increasing the distance or terrain layout, making timings less effective).
Jayrod
Profile Joined August 2010
1820 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-05-06 03:48:36
May 06 2011 03:47 GMT
#2
I don't really think your reasons justify strategy forum post =/. This is most certainly a custom map topic.. not really sure what there is to discuss here.

My thoughts: Cool.
Ravomat
Profile Joined September 2010
Germany422 Posts
May 06 2011 03:49 GMT
#3
its not your job to balance this game. blizzard already has tools that are way better than a custom map to test stuff. if you want to help balancing make a reasonable post somewhere on the bnet forums and hope blizzard reads it and decides that this is something they want to try.

there is just no point in having such a map.
the p00n
Profile Joined September 2010
Netherlands615 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-05-06 03:52:13
May 06 2011 03:51 GMT
#4
I don't really think your reasons justify strategy forum post =/. This is most certainly a custom map topic.. not really sure what there is to discuss here.


If a mod feels the same way they can move it to the custom map section. I feel like it bears little resemblance to most topics in the Custom Map section of the forum, as those are mostly about map specific features regarding terrain.

That being said, I'm going to go to bed now, so my lack of replying can be explained by this. I will reply to most posts tomorrow.
Ravomat
Profile Joined September 2010
Germany422 Posts
May 06 2011 03:57 GMT
#5
you dont even try to defend your idea. what the hell?
Samhax
Profile Joined August 2010
1054 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-05-06 04:16:36
May 06 2011 04:01 GMT
#6
well i will give you my toughts. For me there is no scooting issue with zerg. I think it's a game design problem. The reason why 1 base all-in are very strong is because :

-Strong macro mechanic for every races (queen, mules, chrono), you can product a shit ton of units from one base because of this. When you see for example the polt build or the clossi build in pvp it's obvious and ridiculous how many units you can produce just from 1 base.

-hard counter design in units, if you don't have the perfect counter to the mix of units, you will die badly. For example hellion blue flames, if there is 6+ hellion in the field, they can kill an infinite amount of zerglings, if you don't have roaches or a wall of with queens and spine, you die. There is many example with all the 1 base all-in that Terran have, you have to make the perfect unit mix to not die.

That's the 2 reason why 1 base timing are effective in this game, not a problem of scoot. Hiding buildings/denying scoot have always been part of the RTS genre. It was like that in bw too and there is no problem in this game about 1 base all-in in the early game.

But i think Dustin Browder said something about that, he wanted a game where the players are always on their toes from the beginning to the end of a game. So it's a design choice...

Conclusion: i don't think giving maphack to zerg is a good solution :p
Saracen
Profile Blog Joined December 2007
United States5139 Posts
May 06 2011 04:15 GMT
#7
No this definitely belongs in the custom map section.
ETisME
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
12715 Posts
May 06 2011 04:19 GMT
#8
On May 06 2011 13:01 Samhax wrote:
well i will give you my toughts. For me there is no scooting issue with zerg. I think it's a game design problem. The reason why 1 base all-in are very strong is because :

-Strong macro mechanic for every races (queen, mules, chrono), you can product a shit ton of units from one base because of this. When you see for example the polt build or the clossi build in pvp it's obvious and ridiculous how many units you can produce just from 1 base.

-hard counter design in units, if you don't have the perfect counter to the mix of units, you will die badly. For example hellion blue flames, if there is 6+ hellion in the field, they can kill an infinite amount of zerglings, if you don't have roaches or a wall of with queens and spine, you die. There is many example with all the 1 base all-in that Terran have, you have to make the perfect unit mix to not die.

That's the 2 reason why 1 base timing are effective in this game, not a problem of scoot. Hiding buildings/denying scoot have always been part of the RTS genre. It was like that in bw too and there is no problem in this game about 1 base all-in in the early game.

But i think Dustin Browder said something about that, he wanted a game where the players are always on their toes from the beginning to the end of a game. So it's a design choice...

Conclusion: i don't think giving maphack to zerg is a good solution :p

isn't that why Zerg needs better scouting? given how much of all on terran can throw and Zerg is a reactive race
其疾如风,其徐如林,侵掠如火,不动如山,难知如阴,动如雷震。
Samhax
Profile Joined August 2010
1054 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-05-06 04:32:48
May 06 2011 04:30 GMT
#9
On May 06 2011 13:19 ETisME wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 06 2011 13:01 Samhax wrote:
well i will give you my toughts. For me there is no scooting issue with zerg. I think it's a game design problem. The reason why 1 base all-in are very strong is because :

-Strong macro mechanic for every races (queen, mules, chrono), you can product a shit ton of units from one base because of this. When you see for example the polt build or the clossi build in pvp it's obvious and ridiculous how many units you can produce just from 1 base.

-hard counter design in units, if you don't have the perfect counter to the mix of units, you will die badly. For example hellion blue flames, if there is 6+ hellion in the field, they can kill an infinite amount of zerglings, if you don't have roaches or a wall of with queens and spine, you die. There is many example with all the 1 base all-in that Terran have, you have to make the perfect unit mix to not die.

That's the 2 reason why 1 base timing are effective in this game, not a problem of scoot. Hiding buildings/denying scoot have always been part of the RTS genre. It was like that in bw too and there is no problem in this game about 1 base all-in in the early game.

But i think Dustin Browder said something about that, he wanted a game where the players are always on their toes from the beginning to the end of a game. So it's a design choice...

Conclusion: i don't think giving maphack to zerg is a good solution :p

isn't that why Zerg needs better scouting? given how much of all on terran can throw and Zerg is a reactive race


No i would prefer better defensive tools like reduce on spine crawler build/burrow time. Like i said, i don't think it's good for the sake of the game to give maphack to zerg in the early game.
Jubio.xl
Profile Joined January 2011
United States28 Posts
May 06 2011 04:54 GMT
#10
I still feel that zerg has a variety of unexplored options to see what their opponent is doing.
But on topic, i feel that if one person flips a coin, there should be a benefit if they do win the toss.
Bad game design i guess so, but thats just how it works. You cant let a zerg know whats going on every single game for only an overlord imo.
LOL late game terran I "Manner cc is a must, but as a ceremony it was not quite enough, manner cc needs to have at least 5 SCVs doing it" - FBH I Savior broke my heart ;_;
Samhax
Profile Joined August 2010
1054 Posts
May 06 2011 05:13 GMT
#11
On May 06 2011 13:54 Jubio.xl wrote:
I still feel that zerg has a variety of unexplored options to see what their opponent is doing.
But on topic, i feel that if one person flips a coin, there should be a benefit if they do win the toss.
Bad game design i guess so, but thats just how it works. You cant let a zerg know whats going on every single game for only an overlord imo.


In a perfect world with a perfect designed game, flip a coin and win the toss will give you an edge in the midgame from where you can recover if you are good enough to outplay or outsmart your opponent later. But actually you just die in a world of pain or it's impossible to recover, ofc there are few exceptions. That's why people are not happy with the state of the game.
FinestHour
Profile Joined August 2010
United States18466 Posts
May 06 2011 07:48 GMT
#12
Just seems like a trap thread to me
but idk
thug life.                                                       MVP/ex-
adso
Profile Joined March 2011
718 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-06-17 13:54:35
May 06 2011 09:41 GMT
#13
the p00n
Profile Joined September 2010
Netherlands615 Posts
May 06 2011 12:52 GMT
#14
@samhax: I see where you are coming from, which is why I added multiple solutions (one being faster burrow of spines and reduced build time). We could also increase the cost for activating the ability, so it's not only 'for one overlord'.

@adso: I feel the same way, but there is little I can do.
Cheerio
Profile Blog Joined August 2007
Ukraine3178 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-05-06 13:25:15
May 06 2011 13:18 GMT
#15
is there any way to programm the map so that you can choose different balance options before the game starts?
Samhax
Profile Joined August 2010
1054 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-05-06 15:20:03
May 06 2011 15:18 GMT
#16
There is one change i would like to see, nerf the income at the beginning of the game. Saturation on a mineral line 16 workers instead of 24 workers.

with this change, timing attacks from one base will be less effective.
taran
Profile Joined July 2010
Finland49 Posts
May 06 2011 15:39 GMT
#17
Just make drones have a short range attack instead of a fully melee one so that it's easier to fend off early building rushes, that would counter proposed spine problem. (â la BW)
Serashin
Profile Joined November 2010
235 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-05-06 15:57:31
May 06 2011 15:56 GMT
#18
Doing a own balanced version requires :
a) knowledge and self played in all kind of skill leagues
b) having tons of ladder games played (5 k + )
c) u need just not to view current balance in engagements u need to think a step ahead.
d) of course u need for each race atleast 3 test subjects in the highest skill league to test ur changes
e) ur balance has to be balance on the limit , meaning its hardly even possible to get better into abusing that one thing not like blizzard posting winratios for leagues... thats useless
f) u must have played in allot of lategame situations ( 5 k + games can come from cheesing or leaving games..)

there may be more for example reviwing how maps have to built up to support all parts of ur balance in all game situations ( early , mid , lategame , basetrades ,)

i dont think u cant even nearly think with ur experience and input to get anywhere near balance.

Even blizzard is failing at that but just because they dont test limits wait for input from some sites and this input isnt even nowhere near of ultimate possibilitys.

Just let the project down and maybe blizzard gets the idea to hire more experienced persons for their balance job.
There are to many targets , and i smile everytime they try to defend and thinking they are smart.
adso
Profile Joined March 2011
718 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-05-06 20:56:05
May 06 2011 20:54 GMT
#19
On May 06 2011 22:18 Cheerio wrote:
is there any way to programm the map so that you can choose different balance options before the game starts?

Possible but like re doing the entire game and it would be a really GREAT work of art AND it would cost several map slots (like 5/6 probably very hard on the uploading ).
It's an obvious idea (sorry) but a huge undertaking

On May 07 2011 00:56 Serashin wrote:
Doing a own balanced version requires :
+ Show Spoiler +
a) knowledge and self played in all kind of skill leagues
b) having tons of ladder games played (5 k + )
c) u need just not to view current balance in engagements u need to think a step ahead.
d) of course u need for each race atleast 3 test subjects in the highest skill league to test ur changes
e) ur balance has to be balance on the limit , meaning its hardly even possible to get better into abusing that one thing not like blizzard posting winratios for leagues... thats useless
f) u must have played in allot of lategame situations ( 5 k + games can come from cheesing or leaving games..)

there may be more for example reviwing how maps have to built up to support all parts of ur balance in all game situations ( early , mid , lategame , basetrades ,)

i dont think u cant even nearly think with ur experience and input to get anywhere near balance.

Even blizzard is failing at that but just because they dont test limits wait for input from some sites and this input isnt even nowhere near of ultimate possibilitys.

Just let the project down and maybe blizzard gets the idea to hire more experienced persons for their balance job.


How bout you exercise your posting? And i do mean as in exercise and then post, not post that way.
Read this (+ Show Spoiler +
On May 07 2011 00:18 Samhax wrote:
There is one change i would like to see, nerf the income at the beginning of the game. Saturation on a mineral line 16 workers instead of 24 workers.

with this change, timing attacks from one base will be less effective.

) and learn how to contribute, then flame with verve (one day, when you've encountered it enough to try and emulate it)

On May 06 2011 21:52 the p00n wrote:
@samhax: I see where you are coming from, which is why I added multiple solutions (one being faster burrow of spines and reduced build time). We could also increase the cost for activating the ability, so it's not only 'for one overlord'.

@adso: I feel the same way, but there is little I can do.

You can lobby with me for a player's custom subforum dedicated to all "melee aspects" in Website feedback
(that would try to draw players into custom )
(that is if i ever make a thread about it )

i do have to say that you're not the first (and that's fine) to undertake this
and that you would probably enjoy reading the previous threads
(the first that comes to mind: + Show Spoiler +
tl's premiere mod
)

Ohh and ignore trolls, go for it...
Cyber_Cheese
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
Australia3615 Posts
May 07 2011 04:14 GMT
#20
anyone who thinks to give the overlord a speed ability that kills it before making a base movespeed option should not be balancing
The moment you lose confidence in yourself, is the moment the world loses it's confidence in you.
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