EPT[Balance] creating my own PTR - Page 2
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Figgy
Canada1788 Posts
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Archivian
United Kingdom362 Posts
Have watched easily over 100 test matches on my maps. Many of those on my more slightly non-standard maps which force players to use their race slightly differently. And getting feed back from every person has played. I have come to my own conclusion that nearly all the imbalances talked about with regards to units and their implimentation, is a bunch of rubbish. It seems to me that its strength verses weaknesess of each race and risk verses reward. Everyone casts the imba stick at everyone else, and when someone (usually someone of note) learns a way around/how to deal with it spreads slowly then very quickly and the new tactic (or unit that utilizes that tactic) becomes imba. As alot of players, in most games have linier thought and reflexive thinking. (which is part of the issue in balancing a game in the first place.) This is pretty common amongst most competitive games in various different ways. As far as Zerg and scouting. The imbalance that Zerg are at a disadvantage i think is totally totally wrong, I have seen alot of Zerg matches just like everyone else, but I'm going to use a specific example to illustrate my point. I made a map with no XWT's, which had alot of testing, it was liked by all the testers (except 1) but also had alot of rematches due to ppl adjusting their builds to deal with scouting/vision being so important. I had to rebalance the map several times, this was due to Zerg being so over powerd in gaining vision. Overlords = moving, flying, vision, that is upgradeable. Creep = movement speed, permavision vision. Zerg can also easily produce cheap fast units that relatively speaking are expendible in the sense of it being easy to replace and very early to get. After the rebalance, ppl who complained about imbalances tended toward the more classic saying race X (that was not their own )was too imba due to Deathball/tanks/Banes etc. Or Race X is too powerful on this map. But every race saying that about the next race worked out to be in a nice circle and was due to that being only players who didnt adjust to the importance of using man power to gain vision (rather than xwt's) whilst their opponents did. | ||
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nitdkim
1264 Posts
On May 07 2011 13:14 Cyber_Cheese wrote: anyone who thinks to give the overlord a speed ability that kills it before making a base movespeed option should not be balancing i think it's very reasonable... if your going to suicide an ovie to scout terran's base or protoss, might as well have it see stuff before it dies. Having an overdrive of the fart valves seems like a pretty good idea to me. | ||
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Barca
United States418 Posts
How the hell can Zerg complain about scouting when Protoss are probably worse off just boggles my mind. -_- | ||
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Bswhunter
Australia954 Posts
Warp Prism -Now has +100 shield -When in warpin mode, its shields will not function | ||
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adso
718 Posts
On May 07 2011 19:24 Barca wrote: Could you also replicate this for all Protoss matchups? I feel like Toss is lacking a tier 1 flying scout and the ability to take early map control with 50 mineral cost / .5 supply units. How the hell can Zerg complain about scouting when Protoss are probably worse off just boggles my mind. -_-  Could you please also "research" posting etiquette after you are done with "trolling 101"? A lenghty discussion propped up by replays of a tweeked melee standard (possibly on several emblematic ladder maps, a "ptr", is a good outlet to one's reasoning and opinions... but that seems much more than you are capable of.. putting yourself "out there" He's doing his part, you're posting one liners, ..my o my who should posters side with? .. my o my what a dilemma... not. | ||
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Barca
United States418 Posts
On May 07 2011 19:36 adso wrote: Could you please also "research" posting etiquette after you are done with "trolling 101"? I researched for "posting etiquette" and my search yielded no results. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/search.php?q=posting etiquette BTW thanks for taking the time to understand my argument that Zerg players should be thankful for their tier 1 units compared to other races. You did a good job of that. | ||
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Yogurt
United States4258 Posts
On May 07 2011 19:24 Barca wrote: Could you also replicate this for all Protoss matchups? I feel like Toss is lacking a tier 1 flying scout and the ability to take early map control with 50 mineral cost / .5 supply units. How the hell can Zerg complain about scouting when Protoss are probably worse off just boggles my mind. -_- What exactly does the toss need to scout besides 7 pool or 3 roach all in? Both are scouted by a probe. Toss basically dictates the game in both matchups. There's very few all ins either race can throw at protoss that will be effective thanks to sentry and wall ins. | ||
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Barca
United States418 Posts
[QUOTE]On May 07 2011 19:24 Barca wrote: Could you also replicate this for all Protoss matchups? I feel like Toss is lacking a tier 1 flying scout and the ability to take early map control with 50 mineral cost / .5 supply units. How the hell can Zerg complain about scouting when Protoss are probably worse off just boggles my mind. -_-[/QUOTE] What exactly does the toss need to scout besides 7 pool or 3 roach all in? Both are scouted by a probe. Toss basically dictates the game in both matchups. There's very few all ins either race can throw at protoss that will be effective thanks to sentry and wall ins. [/QUOTE Yeah you're like, completely wrong. In like so many ways. | ||
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Zeroes
United States1102 Posts
What exactly does the toss need to scout besides 7 pool or 3 roach all in? Both are scouted by a probe. Toss basically dictates the game in both matchups. There's very few all ins either race can throw at protoss that will be effective thanks to sentry and wall ins. does protoss need scouting? I mean to hold off a 7 pool or 3 roach all in is the same build and your reaction. | ||
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adso
718 Posts
+ Show Spoiler + On May 07 2011 20:03 Yogurt wrote: What exactly does the toss need to scout besides 7 pool or 3 roach all in? Both are scouted by a probe. Toss basically dictates the game in both matchups. There's very few all ins either race can throw at protoss that will be effective thanks to sentry and wall ins. [/QUOTE Yeah you're like, completely wrong. In like so many ways. All your ranting = my response = hallucinated phoenix + Show Spoiler + oh and don't worry .. we know you give a "toss"  | ||
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Zeroes
United States1102 Posts
There is no reason for Terran or Toss players to play the ptr if you are just going to buff zerg. Give them a reason to play test your ptr. For example: - Bringing back Amulet/lower psi storm research for toss: Right now Toss are stuck going Colossi not because they aren't the strongest its because they have no other option. Also this gives you a reason to nerf colossi as well. (From what I hear everyone hates Colossi even some toss themselves if they were given the option to do other things they would.) - Terran has a very strong late game but they have tons of gas problems mainly their late game units like ghost ravens and battlecrusiers cost a ton of gas. Blizz is already fixing this by lowering the gas cost of ghosts. (Ghost's snipe is really good vs zerg and if you think ravens sucks watch moonan's games.) From there you can justify fixing zerg's early game. Really all I think they need is a lower spine crawler build time so that they can be built on reaction like in bw. This would also buff the 6 pool spine all-in in ZvZ tho so maybe a +1 or +2 attack to armor on drones (going to need testing). Also do small changes, +1 attack to lings may not seem a lot but the amount of lings you can get can add up especially if you change things in the early game. | ||
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Cyber_Cheese
Australia3615 Posts
On May 07 2011 19:24 Barca wrote: Could you also replicate this for all Protoss matchups? I feel like Toss is lacking a tier 1 flying scout and the ability to take early map control with 50 mineral cost / .5 supply units. How the hell can Zerg complain about scouting when Protoss are probably worse off just boggles my mind. -_- protoss tend to be the ones that take control of the game, zerg needs the scouting more to be able to do its reactionary play | ||
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epikAnglory
United States1120 Posts
Zerg lack of scouting? Protoss has no scouting in early game. Lose scouting probe, ok 5 minutes before hallucination with no watch tower control. | ||
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synapse
China13814 Posts
On May 08 2011 07:33 iTzAnglory wrote: What the?... Zerg lack of scouting? Protoss has no scouting in early game. Lose scouting probe, ok 5 minutes before hallucination with no watch tower control. P scouting is not as essential; your early-game composition is almost always going to be the same regardless of what you scout. | ||
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WniO
United States2706 Posts
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Barca
United States418 Posts
Zerg is not the only race that lacks sufficient scouting options, and one could make the argument that they don't even have the worst scouting in general. Just stop QQing about your own play and get better so you can learn to read his builds by telltale signs while trying to improve scouting techniques. Pragmatism at its best. | ||
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adso
718 Posts
"No one is taking this thread seriously": + Show Spoiler + On May 08 2011 09:11 WniO wrote: if you need anyone to test this or obs ill be on for a while tonight NA server. Volta.296 On May 08 2011 07:38 synapse wrote: The problem in question is certainly an important one.. however, I've seen far better suggestions than 1) give overlords a suicide-scout ability, 2) make Z defense amazing, 3) fix the maps. P scouting is not as essential; your early-game composition is almost always going to be the same regardless of what you scout. On May 08 2011 01:23 Cyber_Cheese wrote: protoss tend to be the ones that take control of the game, zerg needs the scouting more to be able to do its reactionary play On May 07 2011 23:28 Zeroes wrote: `Ok here are my thoughts on the whole creating your own ptr There is no reason for Terran or Toss players to play the ptr if you are just going to buff zerg. Give them a reason to play test your ptr. For example: - Bringing back Amulet/lower psi storm research for toss: Right now Toss are stuck going Colossi not because they aren't the strongest its because they have no other option. Also this gives you a reason to nerf colossi as well. (From what I hear everyone hates Colossi even some toss themselves if they were given the option to do other things they would.) - Terran has a very strong late game but they have tons of gas problems mainly their late game units like ghost ravens and battlecrusiers cost a ton of gas. Blizz is already fixing this by lowering the gas cost of ghosts. (Ghost's snipe is really good vs zerg and if you think ravens sucks watch moonan's games.) From there you can justify fixing zerg's early game. Really all I think they need is a lower spine crawler build time so that they can be built on reaction like in bw. This would also buff the 6 pool spine all-in in ZvZ tho so maybe a +1 or +2 attack to armor on drones (going to need testing). Also do small changes, +1 attack to lings may not seem a lot but the amount of lings you can get can add up especially if you change things in the early game. Could you point out the "non seriousness"? Oh, i almost missed this... have a good tl | ||
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