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Hello everyone,
I know that discussing balance is generally frowned upon and seen as a taboo topic. However, I was thinking of creating a custom map myself and implementing balance changes. This could be both fun and interesting and I would like to get the opinion of tl.net.
I will try to update this topic as much as possible (mainly by editing the OP) with the balance or game issues I have detected (by listening to what everyone has to say about the subject, mainly pro players) and present possible solutions. If most of the community can agree on some things, I can implement the changes in a custom map and we can all play some test games and see how it works out :-).
The reason I posted this in strategy discussion and not in custom maps is because I'm mainly focusing on strategy and not on the actual map design - I am probably going to copy an existing map (i.e. metalopolis) and tweak it slightly. I'm willing to invest plenty of time on this and don't want to dump a lot of content straight away, so I can focus on one thing at a time.
From what I've gathered, most people seem to feel that there is an issue with zerg early scouting. I have written something and would like your opinion on the matter. Be warned that this is obviously theorycraft and that I have no intention of convincing anyone of imbalance or balance, I simply want to improve my understanding of the game and would like to see what comes out of this thread and discussion, so please don't treat this like a monthly colossus-is-imba-thread or such. Please refrain from only posting your opinion without back-up (i.e. 'these are great changes' or 'nerf [x]? lol, you have no idea what you are talking about'). I also make some assumptions which I state as fact (simply because it doesn't flow very well when you have to read 'imo' every other sentence). Keep in mind this is all my opinion!
Part one:
Zerg
1) Poor scouting (mainly vs. Terran)
Zerg is a race that heavily relies on adapting and defending. The early game is especially volatile for zerg, having no general build that’s safe against most strategies. The lack of scouting is very noticeable in ZvT, especially against 1 base ‘cheese/all-in’ builds. A six or seven barracks build from 1 base (in vogue right now due to TLO’s recent usage in multiple tournaments) requires a completely different approach then, say, a 1 rax expansion, even though both look the same up to a certain point.
Generally, it can often be very hard to distinguish the early terran builds from one another. On most maps and in certain positions, you are able to get a read off by scouting the gases with your overlord, and you may even catch their production facilities and know exactly what they are doing at the cost of an overlord. However, this is not always possible. If you are able to get a solid read off by i.e. an overlord scout in 50% of your games, you will still be in the dark the other 50% of your games (i.e. when your opponent doesn’t forget to put a marine at the cliff, or raises his depot in time, …,).
Most tournaments and cups are played in a bo1, bo3 or bo5 format – losing one to three games can mean elimination from the entire tournament. If responding in a certain way to information you have collected throughout the game nets you a 65 to 75% winrate, this may still not be acceptable in a bo3 or bo5 format. Unlike in poker – where you play thousands and thousands of hands, meaning that even a consistent 55% winrate against a certain type of play is acceptable – you have only 2 to 4 games in a big starcraft 2 tournament setting, where you can easily lose the series even though you should win according to odds. This can be especially tricky when your opponent isn’t that great of a player and you are uncertain whether you have to attribute his low SCV count or not grabbing his gases at his natural to poor gameplay or a 2 base timing push.
Although this specific example is not the best, there are plenty of situations where you are forced to assume something from the information you are getting, which in many cases will most likely be [x] (~75%) but can also be [y] (~25%), and there is absolutely no way for you to tell without either cheating or being telepathic.
Possible solutions
• Give the overlords an ability that significantly boosts their speed (i.e. 1.88), but auto-destructs after a set period of time (i.e. 20 seconds). This ability could be named ‘overdrive’ or ‘helium inflation’ and may or may not require a small mineral cost. It may also require a certain amount of tech (i.e. a spawning pool) EDIT: this is an ability that can be activated on an individual overlord, obviously
• Reduce the Spine Crawler and Spore Crawler building time and root time. However, early pool Spine Crawler rushes in ZvZ may become too strong when the build time of the Spine Crawler is increased. Additional changes should occur to counteract this if this would turn out to be the case (i.e. giving workers 100% bonus damage against structures, which would also help against bunker rushes and photon cannons)
• Create better maps, allowing for an easier way to scout your opponent (it is fairly easy to scout the gas timings on close air shattered temple for example, due to the high ground behind the main) or circumventing the scouting issue in another way (i.e. by increasing the distance or terrain layout, making timings less effective).
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I don't really think your reasons justify strategy forum post =/. This is most certainly a custom map topic.. not really sure what there is to discuss here.
My thoughts: Cool.
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its not your job to balance this game. blizzard already has tools that are way better than a custom map to test stuff. if you want to help balancing make a reasonable post somewhere on the bnet forums and hope blizzard reads it and decides that this is something they want to try.
there is just no point in having such a map.
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I don't really think your reasons justify strategy forum post =/. This is most certainly a custom map topic.. not really sure what there is to discuss here.
If a mod feels the same way they can move it to the custom map section. I feel like it bears little resemblance to most topics in the Custom Map section of the forum, as those are mostly about map specific features regarding terrain.
That being said, I'm going to go to bed now, so my lack of replying can be explained by this. I will reply to most posts tomorrow.
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you dont even try to defend your idea. what the hell?
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well i will give you my toughts. For me there is no scooting issue with zerg. I think it's a game design problem. The reason why 1 base all-in are very strong is because :
-Strong macro mechanic for every races (queen, mules, chrono), you can product a shit ton of units from one base because of this. When you see for example the polt build or the clossi build in pvp it's obvious and ridiculous how many units you can produce just from 1 base.
-hard counter design in units, if you don't have the perfect counter to the mix of units, you will die badly. For example hellion blue flames, if there is 6+ hellion in the field, they can kill an infinite amount of zerglings, if you don't have roaches or a wall of with queens and spine, you die. There is many example with all the 1 base all-in that Terran have, you have to make the perfect unit mix to not die.
That's the 2 reason why 1 base timing are effective in this game, not a problem of scoot. Hiding buildings/denying scoot have always been part of the RTS genre. It was like that in bw too and there is no problem in this game about 1 base all-in in the early game.
But i think Dustin Browder said something about that, he wanted a game where the players are always on their toes from the beginning to the end of a game. So it's a design choice...
Conclusion: i don't think giving maphack to zerg is a good solution :p
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No this definitely belongs in the custom map section.
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On May 06 2011 13:01 Samhax wrote:
well i will give you my toughts. For me there is no scooting issue with zerg. I think it's a game design problem. The reason why 1 base all-in are very strong is because :
-Strong macro mechanic for every races (queen, mules, chrono), you can product a shit ton of units from one base because of this. When you see for example the polt build or the clossi build in pvp it's obvious and ridiculous how many units you can produce just from 1 base.
-hard counter design in units, if you don't have the perfect counter to the mix of units, you will die badly. For example hellion blue flames, if there is 6+ hellion in the field, they can kill an infinite amount of zerglings, if you don't have roaches or a wall of with queens and spine, you die. There is many example with all the 1 base all-in that Terran have, you have to make the perfect unit mix to not die.
That's the 2 reason why 1 base timing are effective in this game, not a problem of scoot. Hiding buildings/denying scoot have always been part of the RTS genre. It was like that in bw too and there is no problem in this game about 1 base all-in in the early game.
But i think Dustin Browder said something about that, he wanted a game where the players are always on their toes from the beginning to the end of a game. So it's a design choice...
Conclusion: i don't think giving maphack to zerg is a good solution :p
isn't that why Zerg needs better scouting? given how much of all on terran can throw and Zerg is a reactive race
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On May 06 2011 13:19 ETisME wrote:Show nested quote +On May 06 2011 13:01 Samhax wrote:
well i will give you my toughts. For me there is no scooting issue with zerg. I think it's a game design problem. The reason why 1 base all-in are very strong is because :
-Strong macro mechanic for every races (queen, mules, chrono), you can product a shit ton of units from one base because of this. When you see for example the polt build or the clossi build in pvp it's obvious and ridiculous how many units you can produce just from 1 base.
-hard counter design in units, if you don't have the perfect counter to the mix of units, you will die badly. For example hellion blue flames, if there is 6+ hellion in the field, they can kill an infinite amount of zerglings, if you don't have roaches or a wall of with queens and spine, you die. There is many example with all the 1 base all-in that Terran have, you have to make the perfect unit mix to not die.
That's the 2 reason why 1 base timing are effective in this game, not a problem of scoot. Hiding buildings/denying scoot have always been part of the RTS genre. It was like that in bw too and there is no problem in this game about 1 base all-in in the early game.
But i think Dustin Browder said something about that, he wanted a game where the players are always on their toes from the beginning to the end of a game. So it's a design choice...
Conclusion: i don't think giving maphack to zerg is a good solution :p isn't that why Zerg needs better scouting? given how much of all on terran can throw and Zerg is a reactive race
No i would prefer better defensive tools like reduce on spine crawler build/burrow time. Like i said, i don't think it's good for the sake of the game to give maphack to zerg in the early game.
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I still feel that zerg has a variety of unexplored options to see what their opponent is doing.
But on topic, i feel that if one person flips a coin, there should be a benefit if they do win the toss.
Bad game design i guess so, but thats just how it works. You cant let a zerg know whats going on every single game for only an overlord imo.
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On May 06 2011 13:54 Jubio.xl wrote:
I still feel that zerg has a variety of unexplored options to see what their opponent is doing.
But on topic, i feel that if one person flips a coin, there should be a benefit if they do win the toss.
Bad game design i guess so, but thats just how it works. You cant let a zerg know whats going on every single game for only an overlord imo.
In a perfect world with a perfect designed game, flip a coin and win the toss will give you an edge in the midgame from where you can recover if you are good enough to outplay or outsmart your opponent later. But actually you just die in a world of pain or it's impossible to recover, ofc there are few exceptions. That's why people are not happy with the state of the game.
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Just seems like a trap thread to me
but idk
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@samhax: I see where you are coming from, which is why I added multiple solutions (one being faster burrow of spines and reduced build time). We could also increase the cost for activating the ability, so it's not only 'for one overlord'.
@adso: I feel the same way, but there is little I can do.
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is there any way to programm the map so that you can choose different balance options before the game starts?
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There is one change i would like to see, nerf the income at the beginning of the game. Saturation on a mineral line 16 workers instead of 24 workers.
with this change, timing attacks from one base will be less effective.
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Just make drones have a short range attack instead of a fully melee one so that it's easier to fend off early building rushes, that would counter proposed spine problem. (â la BW)
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Doing a own balanced version requires :
a) knowledge and self played in all kind of skill leagues
b) having tons of ladder games played (5 k + )
c) u need just not to view current balance in engagements u need to think a step ahead.
d) of course u need for each race atleast 3 test subjects in the highest skill league to test ur changes
e) ur balance has to be balance on the limit , meaning its hardly even possible to get better into abusing that one thing not like blizzard posting winratios for leagues... thats useless
f) u must have played in allot of lategame situations ( 5 k + games can come from cheesing or leaving games..)
there may be more for example reviwing how maps have to built up to support all parts of ur balance in all game situations ( early , mid , lategame , basetrades ,)
i dont think u cant even nearly think with ur experience and input to get anywhere near balance.
Even blizzard is failing at that but just because they dont test limits wait for input from some sites and this input isnt even nowhere near of ultimate possibilitys.
Just let the project down and maybe blizzard gets the idea to hire more experienced persons for their balance job.
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On May 06 2011 22:18 Cheerio wrote:
is there any way to programm the map so that you can choose different balance options before the game starts?
Possible but like re doing the entire game and it would be a really GREAT work of art AND it would cost several map slots (like 5/6 probably very hard on the uploading  ).
It's an obvious idea (sorry) but a huge undertaking 
On May 07 2011 00:56 Serashin wrote:Doing a own balanced version requires : + Show Spoiler +a) knowledge and self played in all kind of skill leagues
b) having tons of ladder games played (5 k + )
c) u need just not to view current balance in engagements u need to think a step ahead.
d) of course u need for each race atleast 3 test subjects in the highest skill league to test ur changes
e) ur balance has to be balance on the limit , meaning its hardly even possible to get better into abusing that one thing not like blizzard posting winratios for leagues... thats useless
f) u must have played in allot of lategame situations ( 5 k + games can come from cheesing or leaving games..)
there may be more for example reviwing how maps have to built up to support all parts of ur balance in all game situations ( early , mid , lategame , basetrades ,)
i dont think u cant even nearly think with ur experience and input to get anywhere near balance.
Even blizzard is failing at that but just because they dont test limits wait for input from some sites and this input isnt even nowhere near of ultimate possibilitys.
and maybe blizzard gets the idea to hire more experienced persons for their balance job.
How bout you exercise your posting? And i do mean as in exercise and then post, not post that way.
Read this (+ Show Spoiler +On May 07 2011 00:18 Samhax wrote:
There is one change i would like to see, nerf the income at the beginning of the game. Saturation on a mineral line 16 workers instead of 24 workers.
with this change, timing attacks from one base will be less effective.
On May 06 2011 21:52 the p00n wrote:
@samhax: I see where you are coming from, which is why I added multiple solutions (one being faster burrow of spines and reduced build time). We could also increase the cost for activating the ability, so it's not only 'for one overlord'.
@adso: I feel the same way, but there is little I can do.
You can lobby with me for a player's custom subforum dedicated to all "melee aspects" in Website feedback
(that would try to draw players into custom  )
(that is if i ever make a thread about it  )
i do have to say that you're not the first (and that's fine) to undertake this
and that you would probably enjoy reading the previous threads
(the first that comes to mind: + Show Spoiler +)
Ohh and ignore trolls, go for it...
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anyone who thinks to give the overlord a speed ability that kills it before making a base movespeed option should not be balancing
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Zerg balance QQ in disguise. This should really go in the custom map section.
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I am only a bronze player, but i think i am a decent map maker and have fair understanding of balancing now (at least balancing maps).
Have watched easily over 100 test matches on my maps. Many of those on my more slightly non-standard maps which force players to use their race slightly differently. And getting feed back from every person has played. I have come to my own conclusion that nearly all the imbalances talked about with regards to units and their implimentation, is a bunch of rubbish.
It seems to me that its strength verses weaknesess of each race and risk verses reward. Everyone casts the imba stick at everyone else, and when someone (usually someone of note) learns a way around/how to deal with it spreads slowly then very quickly and the new tactic (or unit that utilizes that tactic) becomes imba. As alot of players, in most games have linier thought and reflexive thinking. (which is part of the issue in balancing a game in the first place.)
This is pretty common amongst most competitive games in various different ways.
As far as Zerg and scouting. The imbalance that Zerg are at a disadvantage i think is totally totally wrong, I have seen alot of Zerg matches just like everyone else, but I'm going to use a specific example to illustrate my point.
I made a map with no XWT's, which had alot of testing, it was liked by all the testers (except 1) but also had alot of rematches due to ppl adjusting their builds to deal with scouting/vision being so important.
I had to rebalance the map several times, this was due to Zerg being so over powerd in gaining vision.
Overlords = moving, flying, vision, that is upgradeable.
Creep = movement speed, permavision vision.
Zerg can also easily produce cheap fast units that relatively speaking are expendible in the sense of it being easy to replace and very early to get.
After the rebalance, ppl who complained about imbalances tended toward the more classic saying race X (that was not their own )was too imba due to Deathball/tanks/Banes etc. Or Race X is too powerful on this map. But every race saying that about the next race worked out to be in a nice circle and was due to that being only players who didnt adjust to the importance of using man power to gain vision (rather than xwt's) whilst their opponents did.
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On May 07 2011 13:14 Cyber_Cheese wrote:
anyone who thinks to give the overlord a speed ability that kills it before making a base movespeed option should not be balancing
i think it's very reasonable... if your going to suicide an ovie to scout terran's base or protoss, might as well have it see stuff before it dies. Having an overdrive of the fart valves seems like a pretty good idea to me.
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Could you also replicate this for all Protoss matchups? I feel like Toss is lacking a tier 1 flying scout and the ability to take early map control with 50 mineral cost / .5 supply units.
How the hell can Zerg complain about scouting when Protoss are probably worse off just boggles my mind.
-_-
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I wanna see this change added
Warp Prism
-Now has +100 shield
-When in warpin mode, its shields will not function
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On May 07 2011 19:24 Barca wrote:
Could you also replicate this for all Protoss matchups? I feel like Toss is lacking a tier 1 flying scout and the ability to take early map control with 50 mineral cost / .5 supply units.
How the hell can Zerg complain about scouting when Protoss are probably worse off just boggles my mind.
-_-
Could you please also "research" posting etiquette after you are done with "trolling 101"?
A lenghty discussion propped up by replays of a tweeked melee standard (possibly on several emblematic ladder maps, a "ptr", is a good outlet to one's reasoning and opinions...
but that seems much more than you are capable of.. putting yourself "out there"
He's doing his part, you're posting one liners, ..my o my who should posters side with? .. my o my what a dilemma... not.
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On May 07 2011 19:36 adso wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2011 19:24 Barca wrote:
Could you also replicate this for all Protoss matchups? I feel like Toss is lacking a tier 1 flying scout and the ability to take early map control with 50 mineral cost / .5 supply units.
How the hell can Zerg complain about scouting when Protoss are probably worse off just boggles my mind.
-_- Could you please also "research" posting etiquette after you are done with "trolling 101"?
I researched for "posting etiquette" and my search yielded no results.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/search.php?q=posting etiquette
BTW thanks for taking the time to understand my argument that Zerg players should be thankful for their tier 1 units compared to other races. You did a good job of that.
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On May 07 2011 19:24 Barca wrote:
Could you also replicate this for all Protoss matchups? I feel like Toss is lacking a tier 1 flying scout and the ability to take early map control with 50 mineral cost / .5 supply units.
How the hell can Zerg complain about scouting when Protoss are probably worse off just boggles my mind.
-_-
What exactly does the toss need to scout besides 7 pool or 3 roach all in? Both are scouted by a probe. Toss basically dictates the game in both matchups. There's very few all ins either race can throw at protoss that will be effective thanks to sentry and wall ins.
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[QUOTE]On May 07 2011 20:03 Yogurt wrote:
[QUOTE]On May 07 2011 19:24 Barca wrote:
Could you also replicate this for all Protoss matchups? I feel like Toss is lacking a tier 1 flying scout and the ability to take early map control with 50 mineral cost / .5 supply units.
How the hell can Zerg complain about scouting when Protoss are probably worse off just boggles my mind.
-_-[/QUOTE]
What exactly does the toss need to scout besides 7 pool or 3 roach all in? Both are scouted by a probe. Toss basically dictates the game in both matchups. There's very few all ins either race can throw at protoss that will be effective thanks to sentry and wall ins. [/QUOTE
Yeah you're like, completely wrong. In like so many ways.
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What exactly does the toss need to scout besides 7 pool or 3 roach all in? Both are scouted by a probe. Toss basically dictates the game in both matchups. There's very few all ins either race can throw at protoss that will be effective thanks to sentry and wall ins.
does protoss need scouting? I mean to hold off a 7 pool or 3 roach all in is the same build and your reaction.
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[QUOTE]On May 07 2011 20:08 Barca wrote:
+ Show Spoiler +On May 07 2011 20:03 Yogurt wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2011 19:24 Barca wrote:
Could you also replicate this for all Protoss matchups? I feel like Toss is lacking a tier 1 flying scout and the ability to take early map control with 50 mineral cost / .5 supply units.
How the hell can Zerg complain about scouting when Protoss are probably worse off just boggles my mind.
-_- What exactly does the toss need to scout besides 7 pool or 3 roach all in? Both are scouted by a probe. Toss basically dictates the game in both matchups. There's very few all ins either race can throw at protoss that will be effective thanks to sentry and wall ins. [/QUOTE
Yeah you're like, completely wrong. In like so many ways.
All your ranting = my response = hallucinated phoenix
+ Show Spoiler +oh and don't worry .. we know you give a "toss" 
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Ok here are my thoughts on the whole creating your own ptr
There is no reason for Terran or Toss players to play the ptr if you are just going to buff zerg. Give them a reason to play test your ptr. For example:
- Bringing back Amulet/lower psi storm research for toss: Right now Toss are stuck going Colossi not because they aren't the strongest its because they have no other option. Also this gives you a reason to nerf colossi as well. (From what I hear everyone hates Colossi even some toss themselves if they were given the option to do other things they would.)
- Terran has a very strong late game but they have tons of gas problems mainly their late game units like ghost ravens and battlecrusiers cost a ton of gas. Blizz is already fixing this by lowering the gas cost of ghosts. (Ghost's snipe is really good vs zerg and if you think ravens sucks watch moonan's games.)
From there you can justify fixing zerg's early game. Really all I think they need is a lower spine crawler build time so that they can be built on reaction like in bw. This would also buff the 6 pool spine all-in in ZvZ tho so maybe a +1 or +2 attack to armor on drones (going to need testing).
Also do small changes, +1 attack to lings may not seem a lot but the amount of lings you can get can add up especially if you change things in the early game.
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On May 07 2011 19:24 Barca wrote:
Could you also replicate this for all Protoss matchups? I feel like Toss is lacking a tier 1 flying scout and the ability to take early map control with 50 mineral cost / .5 supply units.
How the hell can Zerg complain about scouting when Protoss are probably worse off just boggles my mind.
-_-
protoss tend to be the ones that take control of the game, zerg needs the scouting more to be able to do its reactionary play
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What the?...
Zerg lack of scouting? Protoss has no scouting in early game. Lose scouting probe, ok 5 minutes before hallucination with no watch tower control.
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The problem in question is certainly an important one.. however, I've seen far better suggestions than 1) give overlords a suicide-scout ability, 2) make Z defense amazing, 3) fix the maps.
On May 08 2011 07:33 iTzAnglory wrote:
What the?...
Zerg lack of scouting? Protoss has no scouting in early game. Lose scouting probe, ok 5 minutes before hallucination with no watch tower control.
P scouting is not as essential; your early-game composition is almost always going to be the same regardless of what you scout.
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if you need anyone to test this or obs ill be on for a while tonight NA server. Volta.296
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See? No one is taking this thread seriously because of a lack of objectivity in the posters. Too much bias for Zerg.
Zerg is not the only race that lacks sufficient scouting options, and one could make the argument that they don't even have the worst scouting in general.
Just stop QQing about your own play and get better so you can learn to read his builds by telltale signs while trying to improve scouting techniques.
Pragmatism at its best.
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So you really don't want to participate in this thread... but you keep posting vs in it...? =
"No one is taking this thread seriously":
+ Show Spoiler +On May 08 2011 09:11 WniO wrote:
if you need anyone to test this or obs ill be on for a while tonight NA server. Volta.296 On May 08 2011 07:38 synapse wrote:The problem in question is certainly an important one.. however, I've seen far better suggestions than 1) give overlords a suicide-scout ability, 2) make Z defense amazing, 3) fix the maps. Show nested quote +On May 08 2011 07:33 iTzAnglory wrote:
What the?...
Zerg lack of scouting? Protoss has no scouting in early game. Lose scouting probe, ok 5 minutes before hallucination with no watch tower control. P scouting is not as essential; your early-game composition is almost always going to be the same regardless of what you scout. On May 08 2011 01:23 Cyber_Cheese wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2011 19:24 Barca wrote:
Could you also replicate this for all Protoss matchups? I feel like Toss is lacking a tier 1 flying scout and the ability to take early map control with 50 mineral cost / .5 supply units.
How the hell can Zerg complain about scouting when Protoss are probably worse off just boggles my mind.
-_- protoss tend to be the ones that take control of the game, zerg needs the scouting more to be able to do its reactionary play On May 07 2011 23:28 Zeroes wrote:
Ok here are my thoughts on the whole creating your own ptr
There is no reason for Terran or Toss players to play the ptr if you are just going to buff zerg. Give them a reason to play test your ptr. For example:
- Bringing back Amulet/lower psi storm research for toss: Right now Toss are stuck going Colossi not because they aren't the strongest its because they have no other option. Also this gives you a reason to nerf colossi as well. (From what I hear everyone hates Colossi even some toss themselves if they were given the option to do other things they would.)
- Terran has a very strong late game but they have tons of gas problems mainly their late game units like ghost ravens and battlecrusiers cost a ton of gas. Blizz is already fixing this by lowering the gas cost of ghosts. (Ghost's snipe is really good vs zerg and if you think ravens sucks watch moonan's games.)
From there you can justify fixing zerg's early game. Really all I think they need is a lower spine crawler build time so that they can be built on reaction like in bw. This would also buff the 6 pool spine all-in in ZvZ tho so maybe a +1 or +2 attack to armor on drones (going to need testing).
Also do small changes, +1 attack to lings may not seem a lot but the amount of lings you can get can add up especially if you change things in the early game. ` Could you point out the "non seriousness"?
Oh, i almost missed this...
have a good tl
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EPT
