|
https://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=0AhhAugu1Z2aPdDBZc1oxYk9NckNqQ053RzhzY2ZHdkE&hl=en&authkey=CJ37vt8P#gid=0
pm or post an email address and I'll let you edit it
well I posted this in a LOL boards thread that only ever got like four views and now there are twenty people viewing it, so I made it more user friendly and added some features in case it becomes semi-popular
This is not really my work, as you can see - I made it readable, updated it and added some stats but that is all. Who is Wu Thuong? Is he a TL poster? The original version I saw had his name on it but I have no screen name to give e-credit to.
This thing is way better than when I first got my hands on it, but there's still much room for improvement... eg calculating regen properly, maybe calculating movespeed, adding gold values for skills, and so on.
Anyway this thread is for the discussion arising from this, and maybe just for general mathcraft surrounding the game.
|
Eh I can't agree with listing CDR as a base stat. Especially basing it off Kindlegem...
- You can't stack Kindlegems for CDR.
- Stinger gives cheaper CDR on an item that only has base stats as other stats.
- CDR is hardcapped.
Instead, MP5 and HP5 should be included as base stats, as those actually are available as stackble T1 items.
|
I agree with the above post. Kindegem isn't a base item, calculating the worth of CDR with it is like calculating the cost for gold per 10 with Kage's Pick/HoG/Philostone/Avarice. Yet they all have different cost-efficiency.
|
Xypherous posted a while back on the lol boards that you should calculate CDR off kindlegem so I just rolled with it.
I suggest you try the math on say, philo stone using regrowth pendant as a base item. It just doesn't work. The reason, I believe, is that you get increasing returns on larger amounts of regen, so higher regen items are actually less cost efficient as far as base stats vs gold, even though they might be just as or more effective. Notice how regrowth pendant gives less regen per gold than rejuvenation bead, whereas say BF sword gives more ad than longsword per gold.
Right now the only method I've found that consistently works is to cost them at the value of the stats they produce after 55 seconds (the 'per 5' value times 11). No scientific reason to pick 55, it just gives values close to the missing ones on items.
|
Notice how regrowth pendant gives less regen per gold than rejuvenation bead,
Uh, you might want to do your math again. 8 hp5 for 250 gold is 31.25 gold per hp5; 15 hp5 for 435 gold is 29 gold per hp5.
Faerie Charm is 60 gold per mp5 and Meki is ~55.8 gold per mp5, so it looks like it works there too.
|
oh i got the numbers backwards
lol ignore me
|
The spreadsheet seems broken.
A part of it seems to have been placed over the rest, breaking the references in the other cells. I'm not exactly sure how google docs work and where to move the rows so I can't really fix it myself.
|
yep, somebody vandalized it.
I have a backup saved in excel but no idea how to import it properly.
EDIT: Oh hey you can just go back to a past revision if you sign in.
So, no problem.
|
I froze the top row and leftmost column so it's easier to keep track of what you're actually looking at.
|
some recent findings
rank 5 gp buff is about 2500 gold worth of stats, same as blood boil and janna shield
leveling up gives about 550 gold worth of stats not counting regen or the skill point
baron gives about 20,000 (!) gold worth of stats and, uh, gold
On April 27 2011 16:34 crate wrote:
I froze the top row and leftmost column so it's easier to keep track of what you're actually looking at.
very nice!
occurred to me just now that armor pen might be calculated the same way armor is, that is that one point of armor pen = same cost as one point of armor
|
Sona and Taric both have some really sick multipliers:
Sona - 20 AD, 20 AP, 20 Armor, 20 MR - 2153 gold value per person hit, total value = 10765
Taric - 30(60) Armor, 45(90) AD - 2117 gold value per person hit, 4233 (!) value self-buffed, total value = 12701
Bonus fun:
Hyper-Kinetic Position Reverser: 4,026 gold
Defensive Ball Curl: 4,646 gold
Insanity Potion: 4,613 gold (+30% CC reduction, 65 HP5/MP5/Movespeed) [+1690g in movespeed, 839g in health, 650 in mana]
Monsoon: 1549 gold/target [600 HP healed / target, 7745 gold Maximum]
Meditate: 9,291 gold (!!) [+1807 gold worth of HP healed]
Yi OP. Janna pretty OP too.
|
Valuing HP and Shields equally, as well as valuing APen and Armor equally is pretty ridiculous.
|
On May 01 2011 05:20 spinesheath wrote:
Valuing HP and Shields equally, as well as valuing APen and Armor equally is pretty ridiculous.
APen and armor I can understand, but %health effects aside, how is 'gain 300 HP for 3 seconds' any different than 'gain a 300 absorb shield for 3 seconds'?
|
On May 01 2011 07:36 Niton wrote:Show nested quote +On May 01 2011 05:20 spinesheath wrote:
Valuing HP and Shields equally, as well as valuing APen and Armor equally is pretty ridiculous. APen and armor I can understand, but %health effects aside, how is 'gain 300 HP for 3 seconds' any different than 'gain a 300 absorb shield for 3 seconds'?
If you buy HP, you increase your max HP permanently. If you get a heal/shield, you don't increase your max HP at all and you don't have any lasting effects.
Obviously the two things you mentioned are the same, but neither of those can be assigned a value in a reasonable way.
|
why wouldn't you add in HP/5 Mana/5? I mean, they have basic items that just provide them, so it would be hella easy to add them in...
Edit: it's also pretty easy to factor in spell vamp off of Hextech Revolver (like you did with CDR and Kindlegem)
Also you should factor in the AP and Spell Vamp with Will of the Ancients like you did with other aura items.
Another interesting stat to look at is % efficiency (Value/Cost), as this is one of the best ways to drive home the point about doran's items being crazy good.
Also thanks, this is good work, I don't mean to be so critical, just wanna get everything in there that we can.
|
Make regens basic stats. Why aren't they?
Also, what's the reasoning for using Kindle instead of Stinger?
Also why would CDR be a basic stat and regens not, especially since they are unique passives?
Also, why does it have the new HoG stats, but the old LW stats?
|
On May 03 2011 06:26 Mogwai wrote:
Edit: it's also pretty easy to factor in spell vamp off of Hextech Revolver (like you did with CDR and Kindlegem)
Also you should factor in the AP and Spell Vamp with Will of the Ancients like you did with other aura items.
Spellvamp makes some sense because Hextech Revolver is the only "base" item to provide it: You can't get Spellvamp without grabbing a Revolver. It's also not unique or anything, so you can stack it like other base stats.
BUT you can't get Spellvamp items without paying for AP. Physical abilities also use spellvamp, so you might actually want spellvamp on champs that don't have a use for AP. For those champs, Spellvamp is much more expensive.
Then again it's the same issue with Mana items on manaless champs. So yeah I guess I support adding Spellvamp. Much more solid as a base stat than CDR for sure.
I guess it would be nice if there was a table with all the stats in the top row and the suggested gold value of each stat in the second row. Below that you'd have some sort of input fields where you can adjust the values to your likings: set mana/MP5 to 0 if you want to see the efficiency for ninjas, reduce the value of HP5/Lifesteal/Crit if you want to check out the efficiency of items in certain stages of the game (HP5 is bad lategame, lifesteal and crit are bad earlygame).
The reasoning to base CDR off Kindlegem is most likely that HP pretty much isn't wasted on any champ, while ASpd is pretty useless on half of the lineup. Still pretty arbitrary, and the fact that it's unique doesn't help either.
|
Spellvamp doesn't seem worth adding since you get it off so few items... just gunblade and wota, I don't think it's even worth the extra column.
On May 03 2011 07:25 spinesheath wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2011 06:26 Mogwai wrote:
Edit: it's also pretty easy to factor in spell vamp off of Hextech Revolver (like you did with CDR and Kindlegem)
Also you should factor in the AP and Spell Vamp with Will of the Ancients like you did with other aura items. I guess it would be nice if there was a table with all the stats in the top row and the suggested gold value of each stat in the second row. Below that you'd have some sort of input fields where you can adjust the values to your likings: set mana/MP5 to 0 if you want to see the efficiency for ninjas, reduce the value of HP5/Lifesteal/Crit if you want to check out the efficiency of items in certain stages of the game (HP5 is bad lategame, lifesteal and crit are bad earlygame).
That's pretty much what the test slots at the bottom are for, you can just plug in whatever numbers you like and it'll compare gold for value. Copy paste the numbers off an existing item to save time.
On May 03 2011 06:30 Shikyo wrote:
Make regens basic stats. Why aren't they?
If you calculate philo stone off regrowth pendant and meki it's worth over 1200 gold (hint: it's not actually worth over 1200 gold). I like the 55 second method but until I have some understanding of how it works and whether it's actually reasonably accurate you probably shouldn't add it.
Also, why does it have the new HoG stats, but the old LW stats?
Because you didn't edit it when you found the error...? It's really simple shikyo, double click the wrong number and change it to the right one.
Also, what's the reasoning for using Kindle instead of Stinger?
already answered
On May 01 2011 18:12 spinesheath wrote:Show nested quote +On May 01 2011 07:36 Niton wrote:On May 01 2011 05:20 spinesheath wrote:
Valuing HP and Shields equally, as well as valuing APen and Armor equally is pretty ridiculous. APen and armor I can understand, but %health effects aside, how is 'gain 300 HP for 3 seconds' any different than 'gain a 300 absorb shield for 3 seconds'? If you buy HP, you increase your max HP permanently. If you get a heal/shield, you don't increase your max HP at all and you don't have any lasting effects. Obviously the two things you mentioned are the same, but neither of those can be assigned a value in a reasonable way.
I agree that these things aren't 'really' the same, but I think the comparison is close enough that it's useful to check these values out.
On May 03 2011 06:26 Mogwai wrote:
Also thanks, this is good work, I don't mean to be so critical, just wanna get everything in there that we can.
The base isn't mine and that's the difficult/nerdy part, I did add a few things but mostly I just updated it from being like six months out of date and made it more readable. I don't think of it as my project lol
|
oh also apparently riot prices movespeed at 7 gold per movespeed unit
|
On May 03 2011 11:09 UniversalSnip wrote:Show nested quote +On May 01 2011 18:12 spinesheath wrote:On May 01 2011 07:36 Niton wrote:On May 01 2011 05:20 spinesheath wrote:
Valuing HP and Shields equally, as well as valuing APen and Armor equally is pretty ridiculous. APen and armor I can understand, but %health effects aside, how is 'gain 300 HP for 3 seconds' any different than 'gain a 300 absorb shield for 3 seconds'? If you buy HP, you increase your max HP permanently. If you get a heal/shield, you don't increase your max HP at all and you don't have any lasting effects. Obviously the two things you mentioned are the same, but neither of those can be assigned a value in a reasonable way. I agree that these things aren't 'really' the same, but I think the comparison is close enough that it's useful to check these values out.
If you want to compare shields and heals to anything, compare them to Potions or Red Elixiers.
On May 03 2011 11:38 UniversalSnip wrote:
oh also apparently riot prices movespeed at 7 gold per movespeed unit
I guess you say that because Boots1 cost 350 gold and provide 50 Movespeed? Well, Boots3 cost 1000 gold and provide 90 Movespeed. That's 11 gold per Movespeed.
Quite obviously Riot's thinking here is that flat Movespeed should be more expensive the more you get.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
