EPThttp://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/155068-1v1-terran-protoss-metalopolis
TvP DT Cheese into Chargelot???
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psp219
United States315 Posts
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/155068-1v1-terran-protoss-metalopolis | ||
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Scaryman
United States70 Posts
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divito
Canada1213 Posts
That they had DTs, and had already tech'd to charge, I'm thinking there was significant delay and a different approach should have been taken. | ||
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Volka
Argentina412 Posts
You didn't have any upgrades for the battle. In fact, your EB was idle a long time, that may cost you the game I'm afraid. Other than that, game was pretty even. | ||
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Graknato
Canada7 Posts
Second, I think you should have tryed to get more ahead, just scout, expand and drop him Also, you might wanna kill off the dark shrine and council, just so that if he wants to use them, he has to reinvest in them. | ||
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Acridice
United States298 Posts
Your opening dictates how you proceed from the defense of dt rush. Just do what ever you would normally do against gateway units. There is no need to push out too soon, because you should be ahead in econ if you defended it without taking any damage. As people always say. If you're ahead get more ahead. Take another base when his rush fails. I assume you're on two base? In answer to your question. The thing is.... you CAN'T attack immediately because you don't have detection. So take a third and build up your army. You're already ahead on econ. | ||
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asd125172
United States52 Posts
DT isn't cheese. Sure, it's cool if the Protoss goes DT and ends up killing a lot of workers, but Protoss's main goal with going DT is to be able to contain the terran while teching and expanding safely at the same time. It's basically a strategy meant for transitioning into something (Most infamously into HT shown by SanZenith in the previous GSL). Also, it prevents you from making MULES until turrets are up because you have to save the energy for scan. I watched your replay and the problem with your play was the fact that you didn't have a single Medivac. Sure, pushing with Raven could be great, but the army size was about equal by the time you engaged, so pushing without any medivacs against mass chargelots especially with the charge buff is a suicide. This is why you always scan the enemy base before pushing. You had slightly greater economic advantage, you should've kept it and push out when your DPS is at highest in midgame (MMM). | ||
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psp219
United States315 Posts
On March 28 2011 09:20 l46kok wrote: 3200 Master Protoss here. DT isn't cheese. Sure, it's cool if the Protoss goes DT and ends up killing a lot of workers, but Protoss's main goal with going DT is to be able to contain the terran while teching and expanding safely at the same time. It's basically a strategy meant for transitioning into something (Most infamously into HT shown by SanZenith in the previous GSL). Also, it prevents you from making MULES until turrets are up because you have to save the energy for scan. I watched your replay and the problem with your play was the fact that you didn't have a single Medivac. Sure, pushing with Raven could be great, but the army size was about equal by the time you engaged, so pushing without any medivacs against mass chargelots especially with the charge buff is a suicide. This is why you always scan the enemy base before pushing. You had slightly greater economic advantage, you should've kept it and push out when your DPS is at highest in midgame (MMM). So Medivacs is the main counter to chargelots correct? (assuming there are marines/marauder | ||
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asd125172
United States52 Posts
On March 28 2011 09:23 psp219 wrote: So Medivacs is the main counter to chargelots correct? (assuming there are marines/marauder Remember, gateway units are like the shittiest unit in the game. Roach/Hydra and Marine/Marauder with stim have incomparable DPS compared to the shitty gateway units. Zealot charge mitigates the shittyness to a degree, but they still need a tier 3 unit to be able to compensate for the lack of DPS vs MMM, such as Colossus or HT. (The only exception to this rule is double forge build). This is another reason why Protoss loses map control momentarily in the current metagame once Marine Marauder Medivacs are out in the map. Thats why as a protoss player, they are forced to camp in base until colossus is out, then push out to contest for map control again. In this particular game though, if I were you, along with the raven I would've made medivacs, take third base and then push out to deny protoss's third base. | ||
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Geovu
Estonia1344 Posts
On March 28 2011 08:51 psp219 wrote: Hey guys I'm a 3400 diamond terran. In this one particular game the toss opened with a DT cheese. I scouted it and took almost no damage. However, when I went to go attack him his chargelots absolutely raped me even though I had the superior upgrades in that battle. After cheeses like this, how should I transition to get more ahead or should I just attack him immediately after stopping his DT cheese? http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/155068-1v1-terran-protoss-metalopolis Cheese cheese cheese cheese. By your logic I am assuming making anything tech oriented is cheese. DTs are not cheese. The point of them is so that you CAN'T get ahead of the Protoss. cheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeese | ||
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Laboof
United States113 Posts
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bgalang92
United States155 Posts
So Medivacs is the main counter to chargelots correct? (assuming there are marines/marauder No... Medivacs simply help your MMM live longer against the chargelots... Have you never faced chargelots before getting to 3400 diamond? Pretty much anything that can kite counters chargelots. If you want to be so direct get banshees. Banshees "counter" zealots. | ||
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ccJroy
United States483 Posts
Its an opening, the fact that your not doing the new 24 expand with a fast engi bay and having 1 turret scares me. 99% of the terrans im facing 3500+ have one turret at there front and can stop any DT i send at them in plenty enough time with a 24 expo into mass rax play. TvP IMO is quite one sided, make 4 vikings for any colossi/VR, then get a few ghost, boom, you counter every single T3 that toss can throw at you. To be blunt, one turret, all u need to hold off the DT "Cheese" which is an opening, not cheese. Cheese = win games, opening = pressure/harass. | ||
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Barca
United States418 Posts
Scans will not be enough against a DT expand, it's plain and simple. But it goes both ways - Protoss always get observers in fear of Banshees. If you fear them enough go Raven first, or put up a turret. | ||
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hocash
United States82 Posts
On March 28 2011 13:02 justinsroy wrote: First off, saying DT "Cheese" is wrong. Its an opening, the fact that your not doing the new 24 expand with a fast engi bay and having 1 turret scares me. 99% of the terrans im facing 3500+ have one turret at there front and can stop any DT i send at them in plenty enough time with a 24 expo into mass rax play. TvP IMO is quite one sided, make 4 vikings for any colossi/VR, then get a few ghost, boom, you counter every single T3 that toss can throw at you. To be blunt, one turret, all u need to hold off the DT "Cheese" which is an opening, not cheese. Cheese = win games, opening = pressure/harass. I'm 3300 diamond Toss and I have never seen anyone do this 24 expand with fast engineering bay you're talking about. Nobody has a turret until after my dts reveal themselves. Do you have a replay of this new Terran build? Doesn't seem like it'd survive against most Toss builds like 3 gate robo. Anyone who scouts that turret will know Terran is behind quite a bit. Also doesn't prevent a delayed dt drop in which case if you're out of energy it's just about always gg. | ||
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padfoota
Taiwan1571 Posts
On March 28 2011 19:30 hocash wrote: I'm 3300 diamond Toss and I have never seen anyone do this 24 expand with fast engineering bay you're talking about. Nobody has a turret until after my dts reveal themselves. Do you have a replay of this new Terran build? Doesn't seem like it'd survive against most Toss builds like 3 gate robo. Anyone who scouts that turret will know Terran is behind quite a bit. Also doesn't prevent a delayed dt drop in which case if you're out of energy it's just about always gg. I'm not sure but, all the TvP games I've seen Fargo do goes for 2 rax expand in base, get eng bay and turret at ramp before expanding. Eng bay + turret is relatively cheap and fast to get, but ofc this is after OC is up on second cc. Since he blocks off first with bunker and depots if he isnt sure what tech route you are going, he is relatively safe against DTs. | ||
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FataLe
New Zealand4561 Posts
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57 Corvette
Canada5941 Posts
1. Cloakshees. Simply put, no forge no robo. GG 2. Fast Expand with turrets at nat ramp. This forces me to either abandon DTs or find another way up (Warp Prism, proxy pylon) 3. Early Marauder pressure (3 marauders 2 marines) Since you are saving your gas for DS, you are going to have only 1/no sentries to FF the ramp) If you survive the DT rush, but don't have enough of an army to go kill him, get MMM with a few ghosts and hellions mixed in. If he is going for a chargelot heavy build, blueflame roasts them alive. HTs are EMP-able along with sentries, and an energyless-shieldless protoss army is no match for terran. | ||
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Provocateur
Sweden1665 Posts
On March 28 2011 09:26 l46kok wrote: Remember, gateway units are like the shittiest unit in the game. Roach/Hydra and Marine/Marauder with stim have incomparable DPS compared to the shitty gateway units. Zealot charge mitigates the shittyness to a degree, but they still need a tier 3 unit to be able to compensate for the lack of DPS vs MMM, such as Colossus or HT. (The only exception to this rule is double forge build). This is another reason why Protoss loses map control momentarily in the current metagame once Marine Marauder Medivacs are out in the map. Thats why as a protoss player, they are forced to camp in base until colossus is out, then push out to contest for map control again. In this particular game though, if I were you, along with the raven I would've made medivacs, take third base and then push out to deny protoss's third base. Gateway units, shittiest in the game? Herpaderpderp. (TSL)+ Show Spoiler + Watch the shittiness of gateway units showcased in Adelscott vs MVP in the TSL In this particular game you would've been better off expanding more and harassing the protoss player with drops instead of just straightup attacking him. Also don't think too hard in the terms of direct counters, "medivacs counter chargelots?", just extending your economical advantage and getting more stuff than him would've been the best move here. | ||
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Antimage
Canada1293 Posts
Get charge off 4 gates, go zealot/sentry, push right in or catch him while he's out of position while expanding. It's not instant loss to banshee though versus someone with good control u'll be at a disadvantage. Also, the most straightforward transition is forge/upgrades off 2 bases, get +2/+2 while getting a much later robo. I find that works for me. But to answer your question, you should transition into standard MMM with a couple ravens. | ||
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