EPTTaken from liquipedia's Cheese article
"A main characteristic of cheese is whatever the form, if scouted in time and answered correctly, it will almost surely fail and put the executed player at a severe disadvantage."
DT's are cheese, end of story.
TvP DT Cheese into Chargelot??? - Page 2
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BigBossX
United Kingdom357 Posts
Taken from liquipedia's Cheese article "A main characteristic of cheese is whatever the form, if scouted in time and answered correctly, it will almost surely fail and put the executed player at a severe disadvantage." DT's are cheese, end of story. | ||
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abominable
101 Posts
1. you always need enough sentry for at least a couple of guardian shields and at least one row of forcefields to split/negate haf of the opposing army. 2. against stim marauders you need chargelots to tank and blink stalkers to deal the damage. but DO NOT FACE MARAUDERS HEAD TO HEAD. if you don't have a good angle, superior numbers or forcefield - take few shots and blink away to safety and let shield recharge. 3. use the superior speed of your units. harrass with blink stalkers to bait the terran into attacking you, then escape. every time you force him to stim - you basically dealt 20 damage to every marauder and 10 damage to every marine... if you keep this pressure on - his medivacs will not be effective. a-moving your gateway ball into an MMM ball is like terran a-moving his hellions into roaches. | ||
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ShadowLegacy
Canada55 Posts
On March 29 2011 02:09 BigBossX wrote: DT's in SC2 are cheese, just like they were cheese in SC1, how can so many people be arguing differently? Taken from liquipedia's Cheese article "A main characteristic of cheese is whatever the form, if scouted in time and answered correctly, it will almost surely fail and put the executed player at a severe disadvantage." DT's are cheese, end of story. Learn to read ? DT into expand does not fail if scouted. They still have to wait to get a Raven to push across the map and your expo has the time to kick in. When not ALL IN it is an aggressive expo build that pins the opponent to his base while not outright killing him(It really shouldn't) You should really know what the build is before posting. Go back to page 1 and read anti-mages post. OT: MMM with Ravens. Ravens can only help you. | ||
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Yverodagny
37 Posts
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BigBossX
United Kingdom357 Posts
On March 29 2011 02:37 ShadowLegacy wrote: Learn to read ? DT into expand does not fail if scouted. They still have to wait to get a Raven to push across the map and your expo has the time to kick in. When not ALL IN it is an aggressive expo build that pins the opponent to his base while not outright killing him(It really shouldn't) You should really know what the build is before posting. Go back to page 1 and read anti-mages post. OT: MMM with Ravens. Ravens can only help you. It's funny cus you act like it takes a week and half to make a raven (considering Terran will usually do 2 rax or 3 rax tech after expand, it doesn't take long at all to get a raven), which is obviously what any decent player is going to do the second they scout dts, and then push, and since toss has invested in CHEESEY DTs (which do nothing), AND then an Expansion, they will have 0 army. Maybe you should go and read the Liquipedia article on what cheese is, cus I think it's you who needs to "learn to read". It's like you're suggesting that Cloaked Banshee's into expand isn't cheese but obviously if it's scouted, and does no damage, the Terran is behind and Z/P has an opportunity to punish the Terran, which IS simple because T invested into tech which did not pay for itself and an Expansion that shouldn't of had enough time to pay for itself either. Therefore CHEESE INTO EXPAND IS STILL CHEESE AND WILL FAIL WHEN SCOUTED VS A SEMI COMPETENT PLAYER. End of story I would also like to add that expanding behind a failed DT cheese is the dumbest thing I've ever heard .... | ||
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jinorazi
Korea (South)4948 Posts
On March 29 2011 05:47 BigBossX wrote: It's funny cus you act like it takes a week and half to make a raven (considering Terran will usually do 2 rax or 3 rax tech after expand, it doesn't take long at all to get a raven), which is obviously what any decent player is going to do the second they scout dts, and then push, and since toss has invested in CHEESEY DTs (which do nothing), AND then an Expansion, they will have 0 army. Maybe you should go and read the Liquipedia article on what cheese is, cus I think it's you who needs to "learn to read". It's like you're suggesting that Cloaked Banshee's into expand isn't cheese but obviously if it's scouted, and does no damage, the Terran is behind and Z/P has an opportunity to punish the Terran, which IS simple because T invested into tech which did not pay for itself and an Expansion that shouldn't of had enough time to pay for itself either. Therefore CHEESE INTO EXPAND IS STILL CHEESE AND WILL FAIL WHEN SCOUTED VS A SEMI COMPETENT PLAYER. End of story I would also like to add that expanding behind a failed DT cheese is the dumbest thing I've ever heard .... i see, so if protoss goes for DT and doesn't work because of turrets, and while terran is getting raven to move out, protoss should keep making DT because thats the strategy right?  i dont understand how "cheese" is used to define strategies :/ in this sense, i guess anything other than a defensive strategy is cheese since if scouted, it'll fail or countered or whatever. old defiinition of cheese: 6 pool early rax marine + scv proxy gate new definition of cheese: 4gate banshee dt mutalisk etc. am i right? | ||
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BigBossX
United Kingdom357 Posts
AM I RIGHT? Let me reiterate: Taken from liquipedia's Cheese article "A main characteristic of cheese is whatever the form, if scouted in time and answered correctly, it will almost surely fail and put the executed player at a severe disadvantage." So, if a DT rush fails, you're at a severe disadvantage, if a 4 gate fails you are at a severe disadvantage, if a 6 pool fails you are at a severe disadvantage. You guys catching on a little now? | ||
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jinorazi
Korea (South)4948 Posts
On March 29 2011 06:49 BigBossX wrote: Lol, some guys didn't play/cheese/get cheesed in SC1 AM I RIGHT? not sure what you're asking :/ | ||
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BigBossX
United Kingdom357 Posts
Learn to read then :/ | ||
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Yoshi Kirishima
United States10383 Posts
So Medivacs is the main counter to chargelots correct? (assuming there are marines/marauder They're not the counter, but when you compare Barracks + Upgrades (Stim, Concussive, Combat Shield) to Gateway + Upgrades (Charge, Blink) the fight is actually pretty equal, especially considering how a Terran bio army is much weaker after the first fight since they don't have Medivacs. But once you add Medivacs, then of course the MMM will be better, but that is because the army itself is "higher tech". To be "equal" Toss would then also need more tech meaning Colossi, Immortals, Forge Upgrades (especially ground armor), etc. So simply put, it is not really a counter but it will make a more advanced army. And yeah, DT "cheese" isn't cheese. It's just a DT. Same with any other kind of midgame harass. @BigBossX Liquipedia isn't god. Also, if you read the note above the definition, it will also say how the definition might not even be accurate, but is the best they (or he) can come up with. For example you could say any all-in is not cheese because as long as you do enough damage, even if you "fail", meaning you don't kill him outright, you might not be at a "severe disadvantage". For example if you SCV-All in with 2 Rax and lose all your SCVs but deny the Zerg's expansion, and already have 10 more SCVs at home while he only has 10-15 drones at his base, it is roughly equal depending on marine/rax/overlord/zergling count. | ||
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Acridice
United States298 Posts
On March 29 2011 06:49 BigBossX wrote: Lol, some guys didn't play/cheese/get cheesed in SC1 AM I RIGHT? Let me reiterate: Taken from liquipedia's Cheese article "A main characteristic of cheese is whatever the form, if scouted in time and answered correctly, it will almost surely fail and put the executed player at a severe disadvantage." So, if a DT rush fails, you're at a severe disadvantage, if a 4 gate fails you are at a severe disadvantage, if a 6 pool fails you are at a severe disadvantage. You guys catching on a little now? You are not at a sever disadvantage when DT rush fails. The only time this is the case is if he went straight to raven. Then yes, you are pretty behind, but the same could go for any other build that gets hard countered. That is also why you don't necessarily do this to a 1 base tech terran. You're better off doing it against a 1-3 rax terran. Then, even if he puts blind turrets up due to suspicion, you're still fine. He can't move out until he gets a raven. Meanwhile, you're expanding and getting charge and possibly teching to temps. Just watch sanZenith in the last GSL. Pretty sure he did dt's and got totally denied. Who won? San.... | ||
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jinorazi
Korea (South)4948 Posts
sorry my english is bad and i tried reading yours, i said something of my own to point out your logic is flawed. if i'm wrong please correct me instead of just stating "learn to read". edit: i see you edited. in taht case "learn to read" does not apply since there was nothing to read. nice going. just so you know, the term "cheese" is not only for starcraft2. cheese is derived from cheater. street fighter is an example, if a player has small amount of health, the opposing player can throw a fireball as he is getting up and he has no choice to block it since he can't dodge it. since block still causes small amount of damage, killing a player in that fashion is "cheese", hence you get "C" as your victory, along with U for ultimate, S for super, etc. just stop being stubborn and stop calling legitimate strategies as cheese. even bunker rush is not cheese, but i'm sure you'll disagree with this statement. | ||
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Acridice
United States298 Posts
On March 29 2011 07:13 jinorazi wrote: sorry my english is bad and i tried reading yours, i said something of my own to point out your logic is flawed. if i'm wrong please correct me instead of just stating "learn to read". edit: i see you edited. in taht case "learn to read" does not apply since there was nothing to read. nice going. You are correct. Considering Bigboss is the one who speaks english, it is sad that your english is better than his. The sentence "Some guys didn't play/cheese/get cheesed in SC1" is complete and utter nonsense. Who the hell knows what that's supposed to mean. | ||
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BigBossX
United Kingdom357 Posts
Example, Toss 1 base DT rushes into expand, Terran 1 rax FE's, drops 1 more rax and techs to starport, scans DT tech, drops ebay, drops turrets at choke, denies DT entry to base (deals 0 damage), drops another rax or 2, builds raven as soon as starport done, Terran pushes, rally-in reinforcements, GG. DT rush is cheese, when it fails (and i do mean completely fails, as in not getting warped directly into the main and sniping 2-5 scvs or forcing scvs off min line) P is sooo far behind unless his opponent makes huge mistakes, the game is over. End of story | ||
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BigBossX
United Kingdom357 Posts
On March 29 2011 07:18 Acridice wrote: You are correct. Considering Bigboss is the one who speaks english, it is sad that your english is better than his. The sentence "Some guys didn't play/cheese/get cheesed in SC1" is complete and utter nonsense. Who the hell knows what that's supposed to mean. Lol maybe you are too dumb to understand, but quite clearly I said some guys didn't PLAY OR CHEESE OR GET CHEESED IN SC1, maybe it's your own English that is the problem if you didn't understand that. | ||
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BigBossX
United Kingdom357 Posts
On March 29 2011 07:06 Acridice wrote: You are not at a sever disadvantage when DT rush fails. The only time this is the case is if he went straight to raven. Then yes, you are pretty behind, but the same could go for any other build that gets hard countered. That is also why you don't necessarily do this to a 1 base tech terran. You're better off doing it against a 1-3 rax terran. Then, even if he puts blind turrets up due to suspicion, you're still fine. He can't move out until he gets a raven. Meanwhile, you're expanding and getting charge and possibly teching to temps. Just watch sanZenith in the last GSL. Pretty sure he did dt's and got totally denied. Who won? San.... Hands down dumbest thing I have ever had the misfortune of reading, I'm not even going to bother explaining why, you are clearly too dumb to understand anyway. | ||
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Acridice
United States298 Posts
On March 29 2011 07:19 BigBossX wrote: Lol, the way you guys twist this to make your own point seemingly valid is ridiculous. The bottom line is when you invest in a strategy on 1 base that is aimed at dealing severe damage to your opponent, but your opponent scouts it and it deals zero damage, you are at a severe disadvantage and the game is usually over already. Example, Toss 1 base DT rushes into expand, Terran 1 rax FE's, drops 1 more rax and techs to starport, scans DT tech, drops ebay, drops turrets at choke, denies DT entry to base (deals 0 damage), drops another rax or 2, builds raven as soon as starport done, Terran pushes, rally-in reinforcements, GG. DT rush is cheese, when it fails (and i do mean completely fails, as in not getting warped directly into the main and sniping 2-5 scvs or forcing scvs off min line) P is sooo far behind unless his opponent makes huge mistakes, the game is over. End of story Just watch sanZenith, and the pro will prove you wrong. I think everyone is tired of arguing with your skewed logic. You're timings and theory crafting is all wrong. http://www.gomtv.net/2011gslsponsors2/vod/62509 So please... quit the qq, and get schooled by the vid. | ||
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jinorazi
Korea (South)4948 Posts
On March 29 2011 07:20 BigBossX wrote: Lol maybe you are too dumb to understand, but quite clearly I said some guys didn't PLAY OR CHEESE OR GET CHEESED IN SC1, maybe it's your own English that is the problem if you didn't understand that. "some guys didn't play or cheese or get cheesed in sc1", see that doesnt make sense. i'm guessing you're trying to say "some guys didn't play sc1" in some elaborate fashion. since sc1 is a strategy game just like sc2 and "cheese" in your term is "strategies with potential drawbacks". | ||
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Acridice
United States298 Posts
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Kyuki
Sweden1867 Posts
The best advice to the op would be to look at how you actually handle the DTs and how much damage they did vs how much time they bought, and if you killed them or not. Transition into whatever normal play you'd planned before unless you for some reason take heavy damage, or you catch the DTs completly offguard and kill them quickly without doing anything (i.e not surviving). This gives You time to either tech or expand, but I'd prefer expanding while adding +1 attack. You just have to approach it like you would with any type of tech play that is not meant to kill you (banshee, phoenix, DT etc). | ||
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