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Recently, a ton of people have been using the term "map control" incredibly loosely.
Map control by having overlords spread out, map control by having a probe at the xel naga tower, map control through sensor towers....
And really, it just doesnt make sense. Having a probe at a xel naga tower doesnt give you any amount of control over what happens on the map. You cant deny scouting, drops, or anything like that. It gives you a good amount of vision, but 0 control.
So I would like to introduce the term "map vision" to players out there.
Map vision, is how much vision you have on the map. Its also sometimes called "map awareness" Like for example, through observers, creep tumors, overlords, xel naga towers, sensor towers, and so on. ideally, if you have good map vision, you can see everything that is happening on the map outside of your opponent's base(s).
Scouting, is how much of your opponent's army composition, location, tech structures, and so on, what you can actually see from what your opponent is doing in his area of the map.
Map control, is when you actually have control over the map, and can stop certain things from happening. Like denying expos that are not backed by a strong army, denying drops before they get to a base, denying the opponent from having random units or buildings outside of his base unless its a full army.
To have map control, you need to have map vision, but they still are not the same thing. having 2 zerglings at the xel naga towers, an overlord at each expo, and a ling in front of his ramp will give you great map vision, but 0 actual control. Having that, plus a bunch of mutas or speedlings ready to kill anything that appears in your field of vision unless its a full army, that would be map control.
Im making this post, because some discussions are really getting ridiculous, and I believe its due to players hearing a word, not knowing exactly what it means, and then repeating it in a way they assume might be correct, and then others do that too, until what they mean has nothing to do with what the word is supposed to mean. Which becomes incredibly confusing for everyone, and makes it really hard to discuss SC.
Once people manage to actually express what they feel through the correct words, its much easier to have a productive discussion.
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Your trying to change a concept that's widely accepted and has been accepted over ten years. It's not going to work. I'm sorry, but that's like telling a football team that the offensive line should be called the defensive line since they're actually protecting the quarter back not doing anything offensive. I don't mean to be harsh but you're just wrong.
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edit: Oh, okay then. Well, I agree with you.
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Well if you choose not to respond to anything you see, then perhaps map vision isn't map control
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ive never seen anyone confuse the 2, the concept of map vision and map control, and how the 2 contribute to eachother is easily understood and accepted properly from what i see.
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Huh, didn't realize people used the term incorrectly.
I've basically always thought that if you can't safely take an expo due to your opponent being able to walk out and straight up kill it then you don't have map control.
So ya, a couple of lings at some towers isn't exactly controlling the map.
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On February 09 2011 15:44 `Zapdos wrote:
Your trying to change a concept that's widely accepted and has been accepted over ten years. It's not going to work. I'm sorry, but that's like telling a football team that the offensive line should be called the defensive line since they're actually protecting the quarter back not doing anything offensive. I don't mean to be harsh but you're just wrong.
Actually, I believe you are mistaken. I've never heard anybody in any respectable position in the SC community confuse "map vision" and "map control". That's not something I've ever heard day[9], tasteless, artosis, or any of the other popular casters/commentators do. The only people who I've heard confuse the two do so because they are confused, and don't understand much about this game. This is not something that is widely accepted by any means, as its quite obvious that the two are very different. Does Terran suddenly gain "map control" when he spams scans all over the map? Absolutely not.
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On February 09 2011 15:53 FrostedMiniWeet wrote:Show nested quote +On February 09 2011 15:44 `Zapdos wrote:
Your trying to change a concept that's widely accepted and has been accepted over ten years. It's not going to work. I'm sorry, but that's like telling a football team that the offensive line should be called the defensive line since they're actually protecting the quarter back not doing anything offensive. I don't mean to be harsh but you're just wrong. Actually, I believe you are mistaken. I've never heard anybody in any respectable position in the SC community confuse "map vision" and "map control". That's not something I've ever heard day[9], tasteless, artosis, or any of the other popular casters/commentators do. The only people who I've heard confuse the two do so because they are confused, and don't understand much about this game.
If you have lings on xel naga towers, and a ling or two at the base of your opponent you have map control. You can take hidden expo's, or tech to whatever you want because they can't leave there base and scout. Not only this you can scout and see what they are doing. That is what map control is, and that's what all good casters and players acknowledge. Liquid`Tyler for example stated on JP's stream that zerg ALWAYS has map control early game (against protoss), that's just the way it is. So I think you're confused, sorry.
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On February 09 2011 15:57 `Zapdos wrote:Show nested quote +On February 09 2011 15:53 FrostedMiniWeet wrote:On February 09 2011 15:44 `Zapdos wrote:
Your trying to change a concept that's widely accepted and has been accepted over ten years. It's not going to work. I'm sorry, but that's like telling a football team that the offensive line should be called the defensive line since they're actually protecting the quarter back not doing anything offensive. I don't mean to be harsh but you're just wrong. Actually, I believe you are mistaken. I've never heard anybody in any respectable position in the SC community confuse "map vision" and "map control". That's not something I've ever heard day[9], tasteless, artosis, or any of the other popular casters/commentators do. The only people who I've heard confuse the two do so because they are confused, and don't understand much about this game. If you have lings on xel naga towers, and a ling or two at the base of your opponent you have map control. You can take hidden expo's, or tech to whatever you want because they can't leave there base and scout. Not only this you can scout and see what they are doing. That is what map control is, and that's what all good casters and players acknowledge. Liquid`Tyler for example stated on JP's stream that zerg ALWAYS has map control early game (against protoss), that's just the way it is. So I think you're confused, sorry.
You're being silly. Zerg have map control not because they have vision, but because they have Speedlings to deny scouting and do the actual controlling of the map. Vision has nothing to do with it. You cannot "control" without any units to do the controlling. And there is a window in the early game where protoss does indeed have map control against zerg, this is when Zerg gets a late lingspeed upgrade in Hatch/Pool or Pool/Hatch builds, and protoss pushes with the first zealot+stalker. At this moment Protoss has map control because they have the most mobile/powerful units to CONTROL the map. Vision has absolutely nothing to do with it.
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On February 09 2011 15:44 `Zapdos wrote:
Your trying to change a concept that's widely accepted and has been accepted over ten years. It's not going to work. I'm sorry, but that's like telling a football team that the offensive line should be called the defensive line since they're actually protecting the quarter back not doing anything offensive. I don't mean to be harsh but you're just wrong.
Uhhh what? I think your confused. Ive never had this thought. Map vision and map control are two different things. Find me some proof to your comment.
But I did like your football reference.
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On February 09 2011 15:57 `Zapdos wrote:Show nested quote +On February 09 2011 15:53 FrostedMiniWeet wrote:On February 09 2011 15:44 `Zapdos wrote:
Your trying to change a concept that's widely accepted and has been accepted over ten years. It's not going to work. I'm sorry, but that's like telling a football team that the offensive line should be called the defensive line since they're actually protecting the quarter back not doing anything offensive. I don't mean to be harsh but you're just wrong. Actually, I believe you are mistaken. I've never heard anybody in any respectable position in the SC community confuse "map vision" and "map control". That's not something I've ever heard day[9], tasteless, artosis, or any of the other popular casters/commentators do. The only people who I've heard confuse the two do so because they are confused, and don't understand much about this game. If you have lings on xel naga towers, and a ling or two at the base of your opponent you have map control. You can take hidden expo's, or tech to whatever you want because they can't leave there base and scout. Not only this you can scout and see what they are doing. That is what map control is, and that's what all good casters and players acknowledge. Liquid`Tyler for example stated on JP's stream that zerg ALWAYS has map control early game (against protoss), that's just the way it is. So I think you're confused, sorry.
He means Zerg has map control early in ZvP because Zerg's army can potentially kill Protoss's army should Protoss choose to move out (assuming Zerg has the larvae to make the units). THAT is map control. Being aware of where things are in the map is just good scouting. Being able to physically kill the opponent's army or base with your army is map control. Why do you think Zerg gets Mutalisks? Because they are excellent at giving Zerg map control.
EDIT: You're not retarded, just misinformed.
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On February 09 2011 15:57 `Zapdos wrote:Show nested quote +On February 09 2011 15:53 FrostedMiniWeet wrote:On February 09 2011 15:44 `Zapdos wrote:
Your trying to change a concept that's widely accepted and has been accepted over ten years. It's not going to work. I'm sorry, but that's like telling a football team that the offensive line should be called the defensive line since they're actually protecting the quarter back not doing anything offensive. I don't mean to be harsh but you're just wrong. Actually, I believe you are mistaken. I've never heard anybody in any respectable position in the SC community confuse "map vision" and "map control". That's not something I've ever heard day[9], tasteless, artosis, or any of the other popular casters/commentators do. The only people who I've heard confuse the two do so because they are confused, and don't understand much about this game. If you have lings on xel naga towers, and a ling or two at the base of your opponent you have map control. You can take hidden expo's, or tech to whatever you want because they can't leave there base and scout. Not only this you can scout and see what they are doing. That is what map control is, and that's what all good casters and players acknowledge. Liquid`Tyler for example stated on JP's stream that zerg ALWAYS has map control early game (against protoss), that's just the way it is. So I think you're confused, sorry.
No you're wrong. You're saying have 3 solo lings on the map is map control. It is not You are right that zerg have mapcontrol in the start of the game but this is for another reason. Map control is free movement of your entire armie over the map knowing you can crush the opponents armie if it gets spotted out of a defensive position. You can still hide 3 lings at the xelnagas or at spotter location if the other player have map control. Is it likely ? Not really. Possible ? Yes. Most people with map control do also have map vision. But that doesn't mean its the same thing.
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On February 09 2011 16:03 LunarC wrote:Show nested quote +On February 09 2011 15:57 `Zapdos wrote:On February 09 2011 15:53 FrostedMiniWeet wrote:On February 09 2011 15:44 `Zapdos wrote:
Your trying to change a concept that's widely accepted and has been accepted over ten years. It's not going to work. I'm sorry, but that's like telling a football team that the offensive line should be called the defensive line since they're actually protecting the quarter back not doing anything offensive. I don't mean to be harsh but you're just wrong. Actually, I believe you are mistaken. I've never heard anybody in any respectable position in the SC community confuse "map vision" and "map control". That's not something I've ever heard day[9], tasteless, artosis, or any of the other popular casters/commentators do. The only people who I've heard confuse the two do so because they are confused, and don't understand much about this game. If you have lings on xel naga towers, and a ling or two at the base of your opponent you have map control. You can take hidden expo's, or tech to whatever you want because they can't leave there base and scout. Not only this you can scout and see what they are doing. That is what map control is, and that's what all good casters and players acknowledge. Liquid`Tyler for example stated on JP's stream that zerg ALWAYS has map control early game (against protoss), that's just the way it is. So I think you're confused, sorry. Are you retarded? He means Zerg has map control early in ZvP because Zerg's army can potentially kill Protoss's army should Protoss choose to move out (assuming Zerg has the larvae to make the units). THAT is map control. Being aware of where things are in the map is just good scouting. Being able to physically kill the opponent's army or base with your army is map control. Why do you think Zerg gets Mutalisks? Because they are excellent at giving Zerg map control.
Thank you, I felt like the only logically sane individual on this thread for a bit.
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I just thought of a situational thing. If you're zerg, you have lings on the watchtowers, and overlords relatively well spread out. This gives you map vision AND control, in my opinion. You do not have the units out to actively have the map control, but you can make the units very quickly and take the map control easily.
In a situation like this, you can argue the zerg doesn't have map control. Okay then, does his opponent have map control? No. So does that mean the zerg does? I think it can be accepted that if one player does not have map control, the other one in this situation DOES have map control. Although, it is possible for neither player to have map control, if they just sit in their bases and build up, without moving any units out.
Just a small thing to note, and perhaps judging map control is harder than what it is at face value, but most of the time, it shouldn't be.
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I'm pretty sure "map awareness" should be made distinct from "map vision," as having the latter doesn't necessarily mean having the former. One can have vision of the whole map but not be aware of things that happen, e.g. not seeing a drop cross your field of vision and being subsequently surprised when it arrives.
Regardless, as others have stated, the terms in the OP (vision/awareness vs. control) are already well-understood by most of the community. The two are sometimes confused and/or used interchangeably because when map awareness is combined with a adequately large and/or mobile army, you get map control. In those cases, saying someone has map control when manning the Xel'Naga towers is not incorrect when it is assumed/implied that the player also has an army adequately suited to responding to what is seen.
Actual misuse of terms by people who are genuinely mistaken is unavoidable, so I won't deny that you probably see a fair amount of people mixing things up, but I don't think the problem is particularly bad for this term compared to other common terms (e.g. "metagame," "build order," etc). Seems a silly thing to make a topic about.
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On February 09 2011 16:09 Zergtastic wrote:
I just thought of a situational thing. If you're zerg, you have lings on the watchtowers, and overlords relatively well spread out. This gives you map vision AND control, in my opinion. You do not have the units out to actively have the map control, but you can make the units very quickly and take the map control easily.
In a situation like this, you can argue the zerg doesn't have map control. Okay then, does his opponent have map control? No. So does that mean the zerg does? I think it can be accepted that if one player does not have map control, the other one in this situation DOES have map control. Although, it is possible for neither player to have map control, if they just sit in their bases and build up, without moving any units out.
Just a small thing to note, and perhaps judging map control is harder than what it is at face value, but most of the time, it shouldn't be.
No, this sort of thing happens all the time. Then you can define map control as control over significant locations or zones of the map.
For example there are some good examples in the GSL where players will push forward to an aggressive location, and when they judge that they do not have adequate map control to hold that location any further they will pull back to a more defensive location. Usually this is followed by an expansion, if that defensive position allows the army to defend that expansion.
Shakuras Plateau especially has games where Terran players will move out in stages: The area between the natural and third, the area between the lines of tall grass, and the area between their opponent's natural and third. Each segment of the map requires a certain amount of relative control before moving onto the next area.
Also, since map control is relative, it is entirely possible that neither player chooses to move out and secure a location. Judging how much of the map you can afford to take and control is key from a strategic standpoint, as this will determine how you expand and where you place your army.
Trying to get more map vision is simply to help a player gain more awareness about the actual amount of relative map control they have. It's like a measuring stick for what the player can afford to do or not afford to do. If that measuring stick does not exist or is inadequate (limited awareness), then the player cannot make an educated estimate of how much map control they can afford to exert. Thus, having map vision and scouting is very important in estimating what you can get away with and what you cannot get away with.
Of course, previous experience with certain build orders or timing attacks is also important in making educated decisions, but these are observations made outside of a specific game.
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Map control isn't a difficult thing to define. Can your opponent rally units safely one-by-one to most places on the map (possibly including your nat)? If so, you don't have map control. If not (because you would pick the units apart), you have map control.
Thus, vision with overlords/towers != map control. Control-group of mutas (early game) == map control.
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On February 09 2011 16:03 LunarC wrote:Show nested quote +On February 09 2011 15:57 `Zapdos wrote:On February 09 2011 15:53 FrostedMiniWeet wrote:On February 09 2011 15:44 `Zapdos wrote:
Your trying to change a concept that's widely accepted and has been accepted over ten years. It's not going to work. I'm sorry, but that's like telling a football team that the offensive line should be called the defensive line since they're actually protecting the quarter back not doing anything offensive. I don't mean to be harsh but you're just wrong. Actually, I believe you are mistaken. I've never heard anybody in any respectable position in the SC community confuse "map vision" and "map control". That's not something I've ever heard day[9], tasteless, artosis, or any of the other popular casters/commentators do. The only people who I've heard confuse the two do so because they are confused, and don't understand much about this game. If you have lings on xel naga towers, and a ling or two at the base of your opponent you have map control. You can take hidden expo's, or tech to whatever you want because they can't leave there base and scout. Not only this you can scout and see what they are doing. That is what map control is, and that's what all good casters and players acknowledge. Liquid`Tyler for example stated on JP's stream that zerg ALWAYS has map control early game (against protoss), that's just the way it is. So I think you're confused, sorry. He means Zerg has map control early in ZvP because Zerg's army can potentially kill Protoss's army should Protoss choose to move out (assuming Zerg has the larvae to make the units). THAT is map control. Being aware of where things are in the map is just good scouting. Being able to physically kill the opponent's army or base with your army is map control. Why do you think Zerg gets Mutalisks? Because they are excellent at giving Zerg map control. EDIT: You're not retarded, just misinformed.
If it's just about army killing ability than protoss has ultimate map control with their death ball. Mutas can't engage directly before critical mass. Zerg establish map control by threatening to kill all your workers if you do decide to move out. This therefore keeps an opponent pinned in his base and your own units can freely move about the map. It's not that mutas are uber killing DPS units. They aren't. It seems more to me whoever player can dictate the movements of the other player.
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Like other people said, I think you do not need vision to have map control, you need to have an army that can easily take advantage of your opponents army being out of place. Once your opponent has knowledge of the army comp, they are forced into a defensive position, even if you aren't being aggressive with the units. Vision helps to increase map control because it allows you to more easily see when the opponent's army is out of place and take advantage of it. However, it isn't necessary (but why not get sight if you have control?).
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Having the ability to control what your opponent can and can't do around the map by having your army in good positions, and seeing what your opponent is doing across the map but not actually preventing it are two completely different things. The OP has it right. People who are saying he is wrong I don't think understand the difference between map control and map vision, like he's saying.
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EPT
