EPTThe Zerg opens hatchery/pool and the protoss opens gateway first. The Zerg at this point has map control because any unit protoss has out on the map can easily be sniped by lings. The zerg drones pretty hard at this point and the protoss went cyber core then stargate gateway. He consistently pumps out phoenix. Now at this point the protoss has the air superiority and map control. Any overlords or stray units out on the map will get picked off by phoenix so the zerg is forced is turtle hard and keep overlords close surrounded by queens and/or spores/hydras. Since protoss has this control at this point in the game he will expand safely since zerg is busy turtling hard. Now the zerg has his saturated bases so decides to mass units and get a third while protoss is busy teching colossus since he sees hes going mass hydra. Hes also got creep tumours all around map and overlord speed so phoenix aren't that effective anymore since they may be sniped by hydras. At this point the zerg most likely has map control and the toss has to play defensive and turtle hard. (then toss proceeds to roll over zerg using his 200/200 army >.>)
Map vision: not the same thing as map control - Page 2
| Forum Index > SC2 General |
|
blue001
106 Posts
The Zerg opens hatchery/pool and the protoss opens gateway first. The Zerg at this point has map control because any unit protoss has out on the map can easily be sniped by lings. The zerg drones pretty hard at this point and the protoss went cyber core then stargate gateway. He consistently pumps out phoenix. Now at this point the protoss has the air superiority and map control. Any overlords or stray units out on the map will get picked off by phoenix so the zerg is forced is turtle hard and keep overlords close surrounded by queens and/or spores/hydras. Since protoss has this control at this point in the game he will expand safely since zerg is busy turtling hard. Now the zerg has his saturated bases so decides to mass units and get a third while protoss is busy teching colossus since he sees hes going mass hydra. Hes also got creep tumours all around map and overlord speed so phoenix aren't that effective anymore since they may be sniped by hydras. At this point the zerg most likely has map control and the toss has to play defensive and turtle hard. (then toss proceeds to roll over zerg using his 200/200 army >.>) | ||
|
Mecker
Sweden219 Posts
| ||
|
chenchen
United States1136 Posts
| ||
|
lungo
Denmark276 Posts
map vision gives you a better shot at gaining intel and possible map control observers gives you map vision, makes it easier to gain any advantage vs your opponent. theres a reason that overlords and observers dont have any attack, they would simply be imba and be map controlling | ||
|
Avril_Lavigne
United States446 Posts
| ||
|
morimacil
France921 Posts
Actual misuse of terms by people who are genuinely mistaken is unavoidable, so I won't deny that you probably see a fair amount of people mixing things up, but I don't think the problem is particularly bad for this term compared to other common terms (e.g. "metagame," "build order," etc). Seems a silly thing to make a topic about. If people are not informed properly, its indeed unavoidable for them to make mistakes and confuse terms. Thats what this topic is about, informing people about how to correctlu use the terms, to avoid confusion during discussions. Another example to show how they are both completely separate things: Imagine a ZvP game, where the zerg has creep all over the map, and the toss has a bunch of phoenix flying around. Toss can freely move around the map, and do as he please. Zerg has to turtle, and any outlying units will get picked off. The protoss has map control. However, since zerg has creep everywhere, he still has perfect vision of anything happening on the map, knows exactly where the phoenix are, and when a push is moving towards his base, and so on. So in such a situation, the zerg has map vision, but doesnt have map control. He can see whats happening, but he cant actually do anything to prevent it. | ||
|
morimacil
France921 Posts
it's all the same, why change it? Its not the same, and it never was, thats the point. Its not being changed, Im explaining your mistake to you so you can avoid doing the same mistake again in the futur. | ||
|
Powster
United States650 Posts
Even if I am doing like a 1 gate expand and terran has a huge army while mine is not much if I can see right when he comes out of his base I can be prepared for it by the time he gets here because of the vision I had / the map control he allowed me to have. If guy is letting you have complete vision then hes giving you the map control.. unless your WAY behind then by the time one of his attacks arrive you should be prepared.. If its just like.. an observer scouting then yeah thats the difference between map control and map vision.. but 99% of the time if you have complete map vision you also have map control at the moment.. | ||
|
TheBB
Switzerland5133 Posts
| ||
|
MegaManEXE
United States845 Posts
Likewise though, map awareness and map vision are not the same thing either. Anybody who plays DotA/LoL/HoN would know that even though putting down wards to gain vision gives you more viewable areas of the map, lots of people tend to zone out and never look at the mini map, thus they lack map awareness and are prone to getting ganked despite your team having map vision. The way I see it, map vision combined with map awareness leads to map control. If you can see most of the map and are able to react to things (like drops, expos, scouts, pushes) happening, that allows you to take map control. | ||
|
Daozzt
United States1263 Posts
| ||
|
Probe.
United States877 Posts
| ||
|
Probe.
United States877 Posts
On February 09 2011 17:25 Powster wrote: I think I disagree with most of you.. if you have vision everywhere on the map like.. watch towers.. stalker outside his base, probe at his natural minerals to see if he expands when stalker leaves, pylons on map all over to see drops.. You have map control 99% of the time.. if he sends a SCV out you will kill it with a stalker.. if he sends all his army out you retreat with your stalker and lose some vision and he gains control of that area.. When he takes control of watch towers he gets even more map control because anything you do he can react accordingly and stop it. Its like.. protoss vs terran on xelnaga.. if they both have golds but protoss has watch towers.. he has map control because it will be harder for the terran to flank / take out spotter pylons around map since you will be able to see right when he is moving his army.. Even if I am doing like a 1 gate expand and terran has a huge army while mine is not much if I can see right when he comes out of his base I can be prepared for it by the time he gets here because of the vision I had / the map control he allowed me to have. If guy is letting you have complete vision then hes giving you the map control.. unless your WAY behind then by the time one of his attacks arrive you should be prepared.. If its just like.. an observer scouting then yeah thats the difference between map control and map vision.. but 99% of the time if you have complete map vision you also have map control at the moment.. You are wrong. In your example yes you prepare in time for his attack but that doesn't necessarily mean he will engage. Basically by the opponent just making units and moving out of his base you are forced to react a certain way. Because his army reigns freely on the map he has map control. Control means he makes the decisions while you react to them. You have no control at this point of the game. | ||
|
darkscream
Canada2310 Posts
Let's say I get some Speedlings. I'd say I have ground control and air control as zerg - I have the earliest air unit and a very fast ground unit. You, as the Terran, produce Siege Tanks and Medivacs. Uh oh, Deployed siege tanks give Terran absolute ground control within their range. I make Mutalisks. I maintain air control and submit ground control, and we play our strategies out till the game ends or we trade domains again. Map vision is another part of map control. You can't have control space with no vision of that space. But does vision give you total ground or air control? No, you still need the correct units to exert that control. | ||
|
morimacil
France921 Posts
On February 09 2011 17:30 TheBB wrote: They're not completely different concepts. You can't have map control without vision. You can have as many speedlings and mutas as you like, but unless you know where your opponent's slow and sluggish army is, it won't do you much good. They are indeed closely related, and often go hand in hand, but that doesnt make them the same thing. And yes, you can have map control without having map vision, just as you can have map vision without having map control. If for example you have an airtight contain on your opponent, such as for example having 2 pylons and a cannon blocking the bottom of a zerg's ramp in the very early game (a patch ago), then you have map control, since you are able to move freely around the map, and you can prevent your opponent from doing that. Map vision, I think, is fairly easy to visualize, and see what is meant. Map control, is a bit harder to define. While this isnt an actual definition, this explaination should help you visualize it if you are unsure: Take a map, such as for example lost temple. Can you take a worker, have it go out unescorted, go touch the minerals at each free base, and then do a giant 8 shape around the xel naga towers and safely return home to mine? If you cant, then your opponent has some form of map control. If you can prevent your opponent from doing that, then you have some map control. | ||
|
thesideshow
930 Posts
Having a overlord over an area gives vision, if the opponent cannot remove the overlord from that area, you are controlling that space since you'll have the advantage in reacting to anything that goes on in that area. Thus, having vision implies control 90% of the time. The only exceptions are observers and burrowed units perhaps. Not worth introducing new words and concepts imo. | ||
|
morimacil
France921 Posts
And even if its a new concept for you, seriously, the idea of map vision isnt really all that hard to grasp. Can you see it? you have vision. tah-dah! When you put an overlord in sight your opponent's natural mineral line, that gives you vision of when he is expanding, but it doesnt give you any control over his natural, or over when he is expanding. Its worth differentiating, because its not the same thing. When you say one thing, but mean another, it just confuses everyone, and prevents you from making your point clearly. Not using the right words to describe what you mean is counter productive. If I tell you that my build order is to make cracklings to gain map vision, then tech to a hive to make mutas and natural everywhere while attacking with the mutas, and then make a lair and get ultralisks to win, that doesnt make much sense. If instead I use the right words, and tell you that my strategy is to make speedlings to gain some map control, then tech to lair to make mutas and expand everywhere while harassing with the mutas, and then make a hive and get ultralisks, it suddenly makes a whole lot more sense. Why? Simply because its much easier to understand someone who is using the right words to describe what he means, instead of someone who is just using random words that are close enough. | ||
|
lindn
Sweden833 Posts
map vision is just what you see through creep spread/overlords and what you see with your mutas | ||
|
dogabutila
United States1437 Posts
Map control would be the power or force you can exert to stop or affect an opposing movement. Being able to bomb the fuck out of the convoy, kidnap/arrest/assassinate the leader dude, set ambushes, raid buildings etc. It is entirely possible to have one without the other. You can move your army around blindly and hope to crash into the other army or an expo, just like you can kick random doors and search everywhere. You can know where people / things are, but not have the ability to venture deep into some places without getting trapped by basically a giant militia force(think blackhawk down), just like you can see the other person's movements but not have the forces to engage him until the rest of your macro comes out etc. Map control is the force, or threat of force that you have. Map vision is just knowing what is going on. OP is right on. | ||
|
[Eternal]Phoenix
United States333 Posts
It's not like in BW where if you tried that shit you'd run into 10 lurkers who you'd methodically have to push back, or minefields with tanks that you'd have to engage intelligently - or having to place mines with tanks methodically to not get crushed. And therefore you get this retarded ball vs ball play that might actually be the most retarded thing I've ever seen. User was warned for this post | ||
| ||
