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Recently, a ton of people have been using the term "map control" incredibly loosely.
Map control by having overlords spread out, map control by having a probe at the xel naga tower, map control through sensor towers....
And really, it just doesnt make sense. Having a probe at a xel naga tower doesnt give you any amount of control over what happens on the map. You cant deny scouting, drops, or anything like that. It gives you a good amount of vision, but 0 control.
So I would like to introduce the term "map vision" to players out there.
Map vision, is how much vision you have on the map. Its also sometimes called "map awareness" Like for example, through observers, creep tumors, overlords, xel naga towers, sensor towers, and so on. ideally, if you have good map vision, you can see everything that is happening on the map outside of your opponent's base(s).
Scouting, is how much of your opponent's army composition, location, tech structures, and so on, what you can actually see from what your opponent is doing in his area of the map.
Map control, is when you actually have control over the map, and can stop certain things from happening. Like denying expos that are not backed by a strong army, denying drops before they get to a base, denying the opponent from having random units or buildings outside of his base unless its a full army.
To have map control, you need to have map vision, but they still are not the same thing. having 2 zerglings at the xel naga towers, an overlord at each expo, and a ling in front of his ramp will give you great map vision, but 0 actual control. Having that, plus a bunch of mutas or speedlings ready to kill anything that appears in your field of vision unless its a full army, that would be map control.
Im making this post, because some discussions are really getting ridiculous, and I believe its due to players hearing a word, not knowing exactly what it means, and then repeating it in a way they assume might be correct, and then others do that too, until what they mean has nothing to do with what the word is supposed to mean. Which becomes incredibly confusing for everyone, and makes it really hard to discuss SC.
Once people manage to actually express what they feel through the correct words, its much easier to have a productive discussion.
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Your trying to change a concept that's widely accepted and has been accepted over ten years. It's not going to work. I'm sorry, but that's like telling a football team that the offensive line should be called the defensive line since they're actually protecting the quarter back not doing anything offensive. I don't mean to be harsh but you're just wrong.
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edit: Oh, okay then. Well, I agree with you.
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Well if you choose not to respond to anything you see, then perhaps map vision isn't map control
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ive never seen anyone confuse the 2, the concept of map vision and map control, and how the 2 contribute to eachother is easily understood and accepted properly from what i see.
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Huh, didn't realize people used the term incorrectly.
I've basically always thought that if you can't safely take an expo due to your opponent being able to walk out and straight up kill it then you don't have map control.
So ya, a couple of lings at some towers isn't exactly controlling the map.
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On February 09 2011 15:44 `Zapdos wrote:
Your trying to change a concept that's widely accepted and has been accepted over ten years. It's not going to work. I'm sorry, but that's like telling a football team that the offensive line should be called the defensive line since they're actually protecting the quarter back not doing anything offensive. I don't mean to be harsh but you're just wrong.
Actually, I believe you are mistaken. I've never heard anybody in any respectable position in the SC community confuse "map vision" and "map control". That's not something I've ever heard day[9], tasteless, artosis, or any of the other popular casters/commentators do. The only people who I've heard confuse the two do so because they are confused, and don't understand much about this game. This is not something that is widely accepted by any means, as its quite obvious that the two are very different. Does Terran suddenly gain "map control" when he spams scans all over the map? Absolutely not.
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On February 09 2011 15:53 FrostedMiniWeet wrote:Show nested quote +On February 09 2011 15:44 `Zapdos wrote:
Your trying to change a concept that's widely accepted and has been accepted over ten years. It's not going to work. I'm sorry, but that's like telling a football team that the offensive line should be called the defensive line since they're actually protecting the quarter back not doing anything offensive. I don't mean to be harsh but you're just wrong. Actually, I believe you are mistaken. I've never heard anybody in any respectable position in the SC community confuse "map vision" and "map control". That's not something I've ever heard day[9], tasteless, artosis, or any of the other popular casters/commentators do. The only people who I've heard confuse the two do so because they are confused, and don't understand much about this game.
If you have lings on xel naga towers, and a ling or two at the base of your opponent you have map control. You can take hidden expo's, or tech to whatever you want because they can't leave there base and scout. Not only this you can scout and see what they are doing. That is what map control is, and that's what all good casters and players acknowledge. Liquid`Tyler for example stated on JP's stream that zerg ALWAYS has map control early game (against protoss), that's just the way it is. So I think you're confused, sorry.
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On February 09 2011 15:57 `Zapdos wrote:Show nested quote +On February 09 2011 15:53 FrostedMiniWeet wrote:On February 09 2011 15:44 `Zapdos wrote:
Your trying to change a concept that's widely accepted and has been accepted over ten years. It's not going to work. I'm sorry, but that's like telling a football team that the offensive line should be called the defensive line since they're actually protecting the quarter back not doing anything offensive. I don't mean to be harsh but you're just wrong. Actually, I believe you are mistaken. I've never heard anybody in any respectable position in the SC community confuse "map vision" and "map control". That's not something I've ever heard day[9], tasteless, artosis, or any of the other popular casters/commentators do. The only people who I've heard confuse the two do so because they are confused, and don't understand much about this game. If you have lings on xel naga towers, and a ling or two at the base of your opponent you have map control. You can take hidden expo's, or tech to whatever you want because they can't leave there base and scout. Not only this you can scout and see what they are doing. That is what map control is, and that's what all good casters and players acknowledge. Liquid`Tyler for example stated on JP's stream that zerg ALWAYS has map control early game (against protoss), that's just the way it is. So I think you're confused, sorry.
You're being silly. Zerg have map control not because they have vision, but because they have Speedlings to deny scouting and do the actual controlling of the map. Vision has nothing to do with it. You cannot "control" without any units to do the controlling. And there is a window in the early game where protoss does indeed have map control against zerg, this is when Zerg gets a late lingspeed upgrade in Hatch/Pool or Pool/Hatch builds, and protoss pushes with the first zealot+stalker. At this moment Protoss has map control because they have the most mobile/powerful units to CONTROL the map. Vision has absolutely nothing to do with it.
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On February 09 2011 15:44 `Zapdos wrote:
Your trying to change a concept that's widely accepted and has been accepted over ten years. It's not going to work. I'm sorry, but that's like telling a football team that the offensive line should be called the defensive line since they're actually protecting the quarter back not doing anything offensive. I don't mean to be harsh but you're just wrong.
Uhhh what? I think your confused. Ive never had this thought. Map vision and map control are two different things. Find me some proof to your comment.
But I did like your football reference.
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On February 09 2011 15:57 `Zapdos wrote:Show nested quote +On February 09 2011 15:53 FrostedMiniWeet wrote:On February 09 2011 15:44 `Zapdos wrote:
Your trying to change a concept that's widely accepted and has been accepted over ten years. It's not going to work. I'm sorry, but that's like telling a football team that the offensive line should be called the defensive line since they're actually protecting the quarter back not doing anything offensive. I don't mean to be harsh but you're just wrong. Actually, I believe you are mistaken. I've never heard anybody in any respectable position in the SC community confuse "map vision" and "map control". That's not something I've ever heard day[9], tasteless, artosis, or any of the other popular casters/commentators do. The only people who I've heard confuse the two do so because they are confused, and don't understand much about this game. If you have lings on xel naga towers, and a ling or two at the base of your opponent you have map control. You can take hidden expo's, or tech to whatever you want because they can't leave there base and scout. Not only this you can scout and see what they are doing. That is what map control is, and that's what all good casters and players acknowledge. Liquid`Tyler for example stated on JP's stream that zerg ALWAYS has map control early game (against protoss), that's just the way it is. So I think you're confused, sorry.
He means Zerg has map control early in ZvP because Zerg's army can potentially kill Protoss's army should Protoss choose to move out (assuming Zerg has the larvae to make the units). THAT is map control. Being aware of where things are in the map is just good scouting. Being able to physically kill the opponent's army or base with your army is map control. Why do you think Zerg gets Mutalisks? Because they are excellent at giving Zerg map control.
EDIT: You're not retarded, just misinformed.
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On February 09 2011 15:57 `Zapdos wrote:Show nested quote +On February 09 2011 15:53 FrostedMiniWeet wrote:On February 09 2011 15:44 `Zapdos wrote:
Your trying to change a concept that's widely accepted and has been accepted over ten years. It's not going to work. I'm sorry, but that's like telling a football team that the offensive line should be called the defensive line since they're actually protecting the quarter back not doing anything offensive. I don't mean to be harsh but you're just wrong. Actually, I believe you are mistaken. I've never heard anybody in any respectable position in the SC community confuse "map vision" and "map control". That's not something I've ever heard day[9], tasteless, artosis, or any of the other popular casters/commentators do. The only people who I've heard confuse the two do so because they are confused, and don't understand much about this game. If you have lings on xel naga towers, and a ling or two at the base of your opponent you have map control. You can take hidden expo's, or tech to whatever you want because they can't leave there base and scout. Not only this you can scout and see what they are doing. That is what map control is, and that's what all good casters and players acknowledge. Liquid`Tyler for example stated on JP's stream that zerg ALWAYS has map control early game (against protoss), that's just the way it is. So I think you're confused, sorry.
No you're wrong. You're saying have 3 solo lings on the map is map control. It is not You are right that zerg have mapcontrol in the start of the game but this is for another reason. Map control is free movement of your entire armie over the map knowing you can crush the opponents armie if it gets spotted out of a defensive position. You can still hide 3 lings at the xelnagas or at spotter location if the other player have map control. Is it likely ? Not really. Possible ? Yes. Most people with map control do also have map vision. But that doesn't mean its the same thing.
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On February 09 2011 16:03 LunarC wrote:Show nested quote +On February 09 2011 15:57 `Zapdos wrote:On February 09 2011 15:53 FrostedMiniWeet wrote:On February 09 2011 15:44 `Zapdos wrote:
Your trying to change a concept that's widely accepted and has been accepted over ten years. It's not going to work. I'm sorry, but that's like telling a football team that the offensive line should be called the defensive line since they're actually protecting the quarter back not doing anything offensive. I don't mean to be harsh but you're just wrong. Actually, I believe you are mistaken. I've never heard anybody in any respectable position in the SC community confuse "map vision" and "map control". That's not something I've ever heard day[9], tasteless, artosis, or any of the other popular casters/commentators do. The only people who I've heard confuse the two do so because they are confused, and don't understand much about this game. If you have lings on xel naga towers, and a ling or two at the base of your opponent you have map control. You can take hidden expo's, or tech to whatever you want because they can't leave there base and scout. Not only this you can scout and see what they are doing. That is what map control is, and that's what all good casters and players acknowledge. Liquid`Tyler for example stated on JP's stream that zerg ALWAYS has map control early game (against protoss), that's just the way it is. So I think you're confused, sorry. Are you retarded? He means Zerg has map control early in ZvP because Zerg's army can potentially kill Protoss's army should Protoss choose to move out (assuming Zerg has the larvae to make the units). THAT is map control. Being aware of where things are in the map is just good scouting. Being able to physically kill the opponent's army or base with your army is map control. Why do you think Zerg gets Mutalisks? Because they are excellent at giving Zerg map control.
Thank you, I felt like the only logically sane individual on this thread for a bit.
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I just thought of a situational thing. If you're zerg, you have lings on the watchtowers, and overlords relatively well spread out. This gives you map vision AND control, in my opinion. You do not have the units out to actively have the map control, but you can make the units very quickly and take the map control easily.
In a situation like this, you can argue the zerg doesn't have map control. Okay then, does his opponent have map control? No. So does that mean the zerg does? I think it can be accepted that if one player does not have map control, the other one in this situation DOES have map control. Although, it is possible for neither player to have map control, if they just sit in their bases and build up, without moving any units out.
Just a small thing to note, and perhaps judging map control is harder than what it is at face value, but most of the time, it shouldn't be.
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I'm pretty sure "map awareness" should be made distinct from "map vision," as having the latter doesn't necessarily mean having the former. One can have vision of the whole map but not be aware of things that happen, e.g. not seeing a drop cross your field of vision and being subsequently surprised when it arrives.
Regardless, as others have stated, the terms in the OP (vision/awareness vs. control) are already well-understood by most of the community. The two are sometimes confused and/or used interchangeably because when map awareness is combined with a adequately large and/or mobile army, you get map control. In those cases, saying someone has map control when manning the Xel'Naga towers is not incorrect when it is assumed/implied that the player also has an army adequately suited to responding to what is seen.
Actual misuse of terms by people who are genuinely mistaken is unavoidable, so I won't deny that you probably see a fair amount of people mixing things up, but I don't think the problem is particularly bad for this term compared to other common terms (e.g. "metagame," "build order," etc). Seems a silly thing to make a topic about.
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On February 09 2011 16:09 Zergtastic wrote:
I just thought of a situational thing. If you're zerg, you have lings on the watchtowers, and overlords relatively well spread out. This gives you map vision AND control, in my opinion. You do not have the units out to actively have the map control, but you can make the units very quickly and take the map control easily.
In a situation like this, you can argue the zerg doesn't have map control. Okay then, does his opponent have map control? No. So does that mean the zerg does? I think it can be accepted that if one player does not have map control, the other one in this situation DOES have map control. Although, it is possible for neither player to have map control, if they just sit in their bases and build up, without moving any units out.
Just a small thing to note, and perhaps judging map control is harder than what it is at face value, but most of the time, it shouldn't be.
No, this sort of thing happens all the time. Then you can define map control as control over significant locations or zones of the map.
For example there are some good examples in the GSL where players will push forward to an aggressive location, and when they judge that they do not have adequate map control to hold that location any further they will pull back to a more defensive location. Usually this is followed by an expansion, if that defensive position allows the army to defend that expansion.
Shakuras Plateau especially has games where Terran players will move out in stages: The area between the natural and third, the area between the lines of tall grass, and the area between their opponent's natural and third. Each segment of the map requires a certain amount of relative control before moving onto the next area.
Also, since map control is relative, it is entirely possible that neither player chooses to move out and secure a location. Judging how much of the map you can afford to take and control is key from a strategic standpoint, as this will determine how you expand and where you place your army.
Trying to get more map vision is simply to help a player gain more awareness about the actual amount of relative map control they have. It's like a measuring stick for what the player can afford to do or not afford to do. If that measuring stick does not exist or is inadequate (limited awareness), then the player cannot make an educated estimate of how much map control they can afford to exert. Thus, having map vision and scouting is very important in estimating what you can get away with and what you cannot get away with.
Of course, previous experience with certain build orders or timing attacks is also important in making educated decisions, but these are observations made outside of a specific game.
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Map control isn't a difficult thing to define. Can your opponent rally units safely one-by-one to most places on the map (possibly including your nat)? If so, you don't have map control. If not (because you would pick the units apart), you have map control.
Thus, vision with overlords/towers != map control. Control-group of mutas (early game) == map control.
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On February 09 2011 16:03 LunarC wrote:Show nested quote +On February 09 2011 15:57 `Zapdos wrote:On February 09 2011 15:53 FrostedMiniWeet wrote:On February 09 2011 15:44 `Zapdos wrote:
Your trying to change a concept that's widely accepted and has been accepted over ten years. It's not going to work. I'm sorry, but that's like telling a football team that the offensive line should be called the defensive line since they're actually protecting the quarter back not doing anything offensive. I don't mean to be harsh but you're just wrong. Actually, I believe you are mistaken. I've never heard anybody in any respectable position in the SC community confuse "map vision" and "map control". That's not something I've ever heard day[9], tasteless, artosis, or any of the other popular casters/commentators do. The only people who I've heard confuse the two do so because they are confused, and don't understand much about this game. If you have lings on xel naga towers, and a ling or two at the base of your opponent you have map control. You can take hidden expo's, or tech to whatever you want because they can't leave there base and scout. Not only this you can scout and see what they are doing. That is what map control is, and that's what all good casters and players acknowledge. Liquid`Tyler for example stated on JP's stream that zerg ALWAYS has map control early game (against protoss), that's just the way it is. So I think you're confused, sorry. He means Zerg has map control early in ZvP because Zerg's army can potentially kill Protoss's army should Protoss choose to move out (assuming Zerg has the larvae to make the units). THAT is map control. Being aware of where things are in the map is just good scouting. Being able to physically kill the opponent's army or base with your army is map control. Why do you think Zerg gets Mutalisks? Because they are excellent at giving Zerg map control. EDIT: You're not retarded, just misinformed.
If it's just about army killing ability than protoss has ultimate map control with their death ball. Mutas can't engage directly before critical mass. Zerg establish map control by threatening to kill all your workers if you do decide to move out. This therefore keeps an opponent pinned in his base and your own units can freely move about the map. It's not that mutas are uber killing DPS units. They aren't. It seems more to me whoever player can dictate the movements of the other player.
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Like other people said, I think you do not need vision to have map control, you need to have an army that can easily take advantage of your opponents army being out of place. Once your opponent has knowledge of the army comp, they are forced into a defensive position, even if you aren't being aggressive with the units. Vision helps to increase map control because it allows you to more easily see when the opponent's army is out of place and take advantage of it. However, it isn't necessary (but why not get sight if you have control?).
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Having the ability to control what your opponent can and can't do around the map by having your army in good positions, and seeing what your opponent is doing across the map but not actually preventing it are two completely different things. The OP has it right. People who are saying he is wrong I don't think understand the difference between map control and map vision, like he's saying.
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For all you confused people I will explain the concept of map control using the example of Zerg vs Protoss.
The Zerg opens hatchery/pool and the protoss opens gateway first. The Zerg at this point has map control because any unit protoss has out on the map can easily be sniped by lings. The zerg drones pretty hard at this point and the protoss went cyber core then stargate gateway. He consistently pumps out phoenix. Now at this point the protoss has the air superiority and map control. Any overlords or stray units out on the map will get picked off by phoenix so the zerg is forced is turtle hard and keep overlords close surrounded by queens and/or spores/hydras. Since protoss has this control at this point in the game he will expand safely since zerg is busy turtling hard. Now the zerg has his saturated bases so decides to mass units and get a third while protoss is busy teching colossus since he sees hes going mass hydra. Hes also got creep tumours all around map and overlord speed so phoenix aren't that effective anymore since they may be sniped by hydras. At this point the zerg most likely has map control and the toss has to play defensive and turtle hard. (then toss proceeds to roll over zerg using his 200/200 army >.>)
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Casters confuse these two concepts all the time (Especially the lower "ranked" ones). I completely agree that map vision is not the same as map control. You shouldn't say "but it's accepted" and leave it at that. In order for us to have a better foundation on which we can build discussion regarding the game, concepts like these need to be separated.
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They're COMPLETELY different. I park seven siege tanks at your natural. I have complete map control but barely any map vision. How hard is it to understand this??
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seven sieged tanks at my natural wont give you complete map control, it will give you control over my natural, but not the rest of the map.
map vision gives you a better shot at gaining intel and possible map control
observers gives you map vision, makes it easier to gain any advantage vs your opponent.
theres a reason that overlords and observers dont have any attack, they would simply be imba and be map controlling
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it's all the same, why change it?
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Actual misuse of terms by people who are genuinely mistaken is unavoidable, so I won't deny that you probably see a fair amount of people mixing things up, but I don't think the problem is particularly bad for this term compared to other common terms (e.g. "metagame," "build order," etc). Seems a silly thing to make a topic about.
If people are not informed properly, its indeed unavoidable for them to make mistakes and confuse terms.
Thats what this topic is about, informing people about how to correctlu use the terms, to avoid confusion during discussions.
Another example to show how they are both completely separate things:
Imagine a ZvP game, where the zerg has creep all over the map, and the toss has a bunch of phoenix flying around.
Toss can freely move around the map, and do as he please. Zerg has to turtle, and any outlying units will get picked off. The protoss has map control.
However, since zerg has creep everywhere, he still has perfect vision of anything happening on the map, knows exactly where the phoenix are, and when a push is moving towards his base, and so on. So in such a situation, the zerg has map vision, but doesnt have map control. He can see whats happening, but he cant actually do anything to prevent it.
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it's all the same, why change it?
Its not the same, and it never was, thats the point.
Its not being changed, Im explaining your mistake to you so you can avoid doing the same mistake again in the futur.
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I think I disagree with most of you.. if you have vision everywhere on the map like.. watch towers.. stalker outside his base, probe at his natural minerals to see if he expands when stalker leaves, pylons on map all over to see drops.. You have map control 99% of the time.. if he sends a SCV out you will kill it with a stalker.. if he sends all his army out you retreat with your stalker and lose some vision and he gains control of that area.. When he takes control of watch towers he gets even more map control because anything you do he can react accordingly and stop it. Its like.. protoss vs terran on xelnaga.. if they both have golds but protoss has watch towers.. he has map control because it will be harder for the terran to flank / take out spotter pylons around map since you will be able to see right when he is moving his army..
Even if I am doing like a 1 gate expand and terran has a huge army while mine is not much if I can see right when he comes out of his base I can be prepared for it by the time he gets here because of the vision I had / the map control he allowed me to have. If guy is letting you have complete vision then hes giving you the map control.. unless your WAY behind then by the time one of his attacks arrive you should be prepared..
If its just like.. an observer scouting then yeah thats the difference between map control and map vision.. but 99% of the time if you have complete map vision you also have map control at the moment..
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They're not completely different concepts. You can't have map control without vision. You can have as many speedlings and mutas as you like, but unless you know where your opponent's slow and sluggish army is, it won't do you much good.
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Agree that they're separate things, but they go hand in hand.
Likewise though, map awareness and map vision are not the same thing either. Anybody who plays DotA/LoL/HoN would know that even though putting down wards to gain vision gives you more viewable areas of the map, lots of people tend to zone out and never look at the mini map, thus they lack map awareness and are prone to getting ganked despite your team having map vision.
The way I see it, map vision combined with map awareness leads to map control. If you can see most of the map and are able to react to things (like drops, expos, scouts, pushes) happening, that allows you to take map control.
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If you're ever scared to leave your base or move out for whatever reason, your opponent has map control. Map vision has nothing to do with this.
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Map control is not defined as easily as "an army being able to crush and opponents army thus you have map control". For example. Lets say the zerg makes mutas and you have enough marine to easily kill said mutas in a head on fight. However if you move out to engage the mutas and or zerg base, muta can fly into your base and rape the shit out of it and still make it back to their base to defend. Map control is when you force your opponent to defend while you roam freely on the map.
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On February 09 2011 17:25 Powster wrote:
I think I disagree with most of you.. if you have vision everywhere on the map like.. watch towers.. stalker outside his base, probe at his natural minerals to see if he expands when stalker leaves, pylons on map all over to see drops.. You have map control 99% of the time.. if he sends a SCV out you will kill it with a stalker.. if he sends all his army out you retreat with your stalker and lose some vision and he gains control of that area.. When he takes control of watch towers he gets even more map control because anything you do he can react accordingly and stop it. Its like.. protoss vs terran on xelnaga.. if they both have golds but protoss has watch towers.. he has map control because it will be harder for the terran to flank / take out spotter pylons around map since you will be able to see right when he is moving his army..
Even if I am doing like a 1 gate expand and terran has a huge army while mine is not much if I can see right when he comes out of his base I can be prepared for it by the time he gets here because of the vision I had / the map control he allowed me to have. If guy is letting you have complete vision then hes giving you the map control.. unless your WAY behind then by the time one of his attacks arrive you should be prepared..
If its just like.. an observer scouting then yeah thats the difference between map control and map vision.. but 99% of the time if you have complete map vision you also have map control at the moment..
You are wrong. In your example yes you prepare in time for his attack but that doesn't necessarily mean he will engage. Basically by the opponent just making units and moving out of his base you are forced to react a certain way. Because his army reigns freely on the map he has map control. Control means he makes the decisions while you react to them. You have no control at this point of the game.
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Map control is a really large, vague term. It's better broken down into smaller pieces - Kind of like how you can just say, "Macro harder", but obviously there are many components of macro.
Let's say I get some Speedlings. I'd say I have ground control and air control as zerg - I have the earliest air unit and a very fast ground unit.
You, as the Terran, produce Siege Tanks and Medivacs. Uh oh, Deployed siege tanks give Terran absolute ground control within their range. I make Mutalisks. I maintain air control and submit ground control, and we play our strategies out till the game ends or we trade domains again.
Map vision is another part of map control. You can't have control space with no vision of that space. But does vision give you total ground or air control? No, you still need the correct units to exert that control.
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On February 09 2011 17:30 TheBB wrote:
They're not completely different concepts. You can't have map control without vision. You can have as many speedlings and mutas as you like, but unless you know where your opponent's slow and sluggish army is, it won't do you much good.
They are indeed closely related, and often go hand in hand, but that doesnt make them the same thing.
And yes, you can have map control without having map vision, just as you can have map vision without having map control.
If for example you have an airtight contain on your opponent, such as for example having 2 pylons and a cannon blocking the bottom of a zerg's ramp in the very early game (a patch ago), then you have map control, since you are able to move freely around the map, and you can prevent your opponent from doing that.
Map vision, I think, is fairly easy to visualize, and see what is meant.
Map control, is a bit harder to define. While this isnt an actual definition, this explaination should help you visualize it if you are unsure:
Take a map, such as for example lost temple. Can you take a worker, have it go out unescorted, go touch the minerals at each free base, and then do a giant 8 shape around the xel naga towers and safely return home to mine? If you cant, then your opponent has some form of map control. If you can prevent your opponent from doing that, then you have some map control.
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So closely related that its not worth differentiating.
Having a overlord over an area gives vision, if the opponent cannot remove the overlord from that area, you are controlling that space since you'll have the advantage in reacting to anything that goes on in that area. Thus, having vision implies control 90% of the time.
The only exceptions are observers and burrowed units perhaps. Not worth introducing new words and concepts imo.
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Its not new words and new concepts, its been around for ages even if you dont know about it.
And even if its a new concept for you, seriously, the idea of map vision isnt really all that hard to grasp. Can you see it? you have vision. tah-dah!
When you put an overlord in sight your opponent's natural mineral line, that gives you vision of when he is expanding, but it doesnt give you any control over his natural, or over when he is expanding.
Its worth differentiating, because its not the same thing. When you say one thing, but mean another, it just confuses everyone, and prevents you from making your point clearly. Not using the right words to describe what you mean is counter productive.
If I tell you that my build order is to make cracklings to gain map vision, then tech to a hive to make mutas and natural everywhere while attacking with the mutas, and then make a lair and get ultralisks to win, that doesnt make much sense.
If instead I use the right words, and tell you that my strategy is to make speedlings to gain some map control, then tech to lair to make mutas and expand everywhere while harassing with the mutas, and then make a hive and get ultralisks, it suddenly makes a whole lot more sense. Why? Simply because its much easier to understand someone who is using the right words to describe what he means, instead of someone who is just using random words that are close enough.
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map control for me = have him contained, either through muta harass/ling or hydraroach pressure, this is what allows you to expand aggressively.
map vision is just what you see through creep spread/overlords and what you see with your mutas
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If we break this down into real world military terms, then vision / scouting would be intelligence. You know what is going on. You know where the convoys are moving, you know where key badguy persons are located, you know when they might be attacking, where weapons are etc.
Map control would be the power or force you can exert to stop or affect an opposing movement. Being able to bomb the fuck out of the convoy, kidnap/arrest/assassinate the leader dude, set ambushes, raid buildings etc.
It is entirely possible to have one without the other. You can move your army around blindly and hope to crash into the other army or an expo, just like you can kick random doors and search everywhere. You can know where people / things are, but not have the ability to venture deep into some places without getting trapped by basically a giant militia force(think blackhawk down), just like you can see the other person's movements but not have the forces to engage him until the rest of your macro comes out etc.
Map control is the force, or threat of force that you have. Map vision is just knowing what is going on. OP is right on.
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Map control is meaningless in starcraft 2 because in 20 seconds you can amove your army across the map and if it's bigger and they engage you'll automatically win assuming you're not zerg.
It's not like in BW where if you tried that shit you'd run into 10 lurkers who you'd methodically have to push back, or minefields with tanks that you'd have to engage intelligently - or having to place mines with tanks methodically to not get crushed.
And therefore you get this retarded ball vs ball play that might actually be the most retarded thing I've ever seen.
User was warned for this post
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Map control means you can have unprotected units/buildings on the map while your opponent can't.
If you have total vision of the map, and your opponent has none, you have map control almost automatically. Only exception I see, is when you have vision but are contained (or strongly pinned).
But how likely is it to have total vision of the map while being contained/pinned ?
As long as you have 1 attacking unit, you can kill something unprotected on the ground, as long as you have 1 attacking flying unit, you can kill something unprotected anywhere. The only thing you need is vision and a path to the target.
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On February 09 2011 21:36 Elean wrote:
Map control means you can have unprotected units/buildings on the map while your opponent can't.
If you have total vision of the map, and your opponent has none, you have map control almost automatically. Only exception I see, is when you have vision but are contained (or strongly pinned).
But how likely is it to have total vision of the map while being contained/pinned ?
As long as you have 1 attacking unit, you can kill something unprotected on the ground, as long as you have 1 attacking flying unit, you can kill something unprotected anywhere. The only thing you need is vision and a path to the target.
I'd say the unprotected buildings are a consequence of map control, not the requirement.
What it basically comes down to is that you a) have, or b) are capable of quickly producing a group of units/structures that can kill the opponent's army or otherwise do serious damage to their econ/base if they decide to move out.
The simplest way to put it:
if your opponent cannot leave his base, for whatever reason (contain, threat of muta harass, too small an army, etc), you have map control.
That's about as literal as you can get: you control what gets out on the map and what doesn't. Vision isn't a prerequisite, but it's often a very good idea to take advantage of your map control to establish vision - there's no immediate threat anyway.
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EPT
