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Hi TL,
I did an experiment with vikings versus muta / corruptor. It seems that the viking would counter all zerg air, cost effectively, if it had upgrades. TL;DR on bottom.
I chose clumped muta balls versus clumped viking balls because for small even numbers of vikings vs mutas, mutas get destroyed. The effectiveness of glaive bounces is only apparently in large clumps, hence 24 v 24.
Matchup is 24 clumped vikings vs 24 mutas.
at 0/0 upgrades (for both)
result: mutas win by about 5 mutas
at 1/1 upgrades (for both)
result: vikings win by about 8 vikings
at 0/1 upgrades (+1 armor) for vikings against 1/0 upgrades (+1 attack for mutas)
result: vikings win by about 10 vikings
at 0/1 upgrades (+1 armor) for vikings against 2/0 upgrades (+2 attack for mutas)
result: even match, viking wins by about 1 viking (red hp)
at 0/1 upgrades (+1 armor) for vikings against 1/1 upgrades (+2 attack for mutas)
result: advantage to vikings, viking wins by about 1 viking (red hp)
at 3/3 upgrades (for both)
result: vikings win by about 11 vikings
Versus Corruptor
at 3/3 upgrades, 24 clumped vikings vs 24 corruptors (not using corruption)
result: even match
at 3/3 upgrades, 24 clumped vikings vs 24 corruptors (using corruption)
result: VIKINGS WIN by about 7 vikings (corruption has a small short cast range, so for the corruptor to move into cast range, it nullifies, and in fact, can make the +20% corruption spell totally not worth casting).
Cost:
Corruptor: 150/100
Mutalisk: 100/100
Viking: 150/75
It would appear that since Terran can mule like crazy , vikings, because they cost -25 gas less, would appear to be cost-effective against zerg. Furthermore, vikings can be sent home to be repaired very quickly, where as mutas would need queens to heal them.
So why don't terran just go mass vikings to snipe all the overlords over and over again, it seems zerg would HAVE to make hydras to deal with it. EDIT I realize this sentence was said inproperly. I meant mass vikings against mass mutas, other wise Vikings + tanks mix.
TL;DR version
Vikings need only +1 armor upgrade to be cost effective against Zerg Air. Zerg would need at least +2 attack for mutas to be on par, +1 for corruptors. Furthermore, if zerg mutas even get in range of viking ball, they will be forced into engagement, as viking ball of more than 7 will immediately snipe out a muta regardless of upgrades.
any zerg players that want to try out against a mass viking strat, feel free to add me (Griffith.583)
EDIT: Chiponyasu was kind enough to provide an awesome replay in GSL3 demonstrating the power of mass vikings (expo into 3 port , 2banshees, mass makings) + mass marines. This was between littleboy vs jookToJung: http://www.gomtv.net/2010gslopens3/vod/1337
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I feel like mass vikings would be nice if you could suddenly make them materialize on the field. The problem is getting to that point is rather hard if you tech to a starport quickly and Z comes knocking on your door with ground forces. Even if it is as you say, and you manage to get mass vikings, 3/3 upgrades take a LONG time to research, and from what you've said, unupgraded mutas beat vikings 1:1, so for a heavy part of the game, Z will have an aerial advantage that will be very hard to defend against if you're trying to build that many vikings.
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so the problem is the vikings are kind of useless when there's nothing left in the air. i fully agree, vikings, once they hit a nice mass, are kings in the air - people keep saying mutas beat vikings, but with the proper positioning (i.e. spread) and upgrades, can certainly go toe to toe. and reactors make it feasible to get a lot in a short period of time as well.
the problem is you can't really -kill- someone with just vikings. you can piss them off by constantly supply blocking them, but if they see you're doing nothing else, they can make a 'basket' of spores, queens, and maybe hydras to ward off your vikings, and then suddenly they are useless. zerg doesn't have to go air if terran goes air, you know?
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On November 17 2010 16:15 Xxazn4lyfe51xX wrote:
I feel like mass vikings would be nice if you could suddenly make them materialize on the field. The problem is getting to that point is rather hard if you tech to a starport quickly and Z comes knocking on your door with ground forces. Even if it is as you say, and you manage to get mass vikings, 3/3 upgrades take a LONG time to research, and from what you've said, unupgraded mutas beat vikings 1:1, so for a heavy part of the game, Z will have an aerial advantage that will be very hard to defend against if you're trying to build that many vikings.
From my 20v20 A-move tests, the Vikings win.
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Even so, what n3mo said is completely true. There's really no point to the vikings if somehow they do manage to clean up the air. Landed vikings die rather quickly to lings and roaches. And again, the problem is getting that many vikings in the first place without dying.
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Zerg can switch to hydra pretty easily on a 2base muta set-up. Air control also doesn't protect you from a bling bust.
Viking Hellion might be viable on a map like Scrap Station, getting the Air Attack upgrades and transitioning into Battlecruisers on 3 bases.
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Low diamond zerg here.
I apologize if this topic does not belong in this thread, but I've been facing problems against terrans who make an initial marine push and I can somehow hold it off with lings. Then they go for double starport banshees with cloak and vikings. The presence of 1-2 vikings makes scouting this tech pretty hard even with an overseer. The vikings snipe off overseers and banshees destroy everything in sight. I tried planting sporecrawlers, but banshees with their insane dps can snipe them off while letting vikings absorb the spore hits. I'd really like to know what you guys think about this build and how I can negate it. Hydras, perhaps?
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The issue with mass viking and why it blows against zerg is because of the projectile animation. Due to the overkill caused by the projectile delay, fights where vikings should have won by comparing damage, rate of fire, etc will actually be lost because the vikings will kill a mutalisk and X shots will be wasted.
Vikings are also slower, which never helps against mutalisk, and as other have mentioned, tech switches make mass viking that much more useless. At least with my mutalisks I can harass. All mass vikings can do is pray to get a few overlord kills.
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rofl rofl, so mutas can take out workers, buildings, harass, annoy the shit outta people and put up a good fight against vikings, but vikings cant do anyof that, their only job is to stop those mutas
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I should point out that reaching 3/3 upgrades is not easy and not something you would get until (very) late game
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Yes, it's true that vikings are cost effective against mutas. It is even more pronouned with the +1 armor upgrades (because the +1 armor negates more than the +1 muta attack).
The issue with vikings vs mutas are as follows:
1. Vikings come out of starports while mutas from larvae. That means the zerg can outproduce you.
2. Vikings can't hit ground.
If they have more mutas than you (esp when you don't have your upgrades yet), how would you snipe overlords?
However, I do believe that vikings are viable once the terran establishes a solid 3rd base with PF/turrets. This allows them to fall back if needed.
I talked about a thor/banshee/marine (add vikings late-game) macro-defensive build:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=169447
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Just in case u didnt know, you need a Raven with your vikings to maximize your range. I dunno why since Viking vision range is 10 and shooting is 9, but the extra 1 range that raven has make u shoot at full range.
I am talking about war fog, obviously if u have other units and no war fog you have no need of raven.
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Its not why people dont do it, its how you get to that point. 3/3 + mass viking doesn't just happen you have to stockpile viking before it gets to the 3/3 viking point there WILL be muta out any they'll slow you down enough to make your 3/3 viking useless OR if you lack aggression a smart zerg will just take the map.
When I was playing random I had attempted various viking play, the thought was kill his food i'll win, i stop scouting i can just run him over with banshee or something. but before i got to the point where my viking could destroy him via air he had enough queens to hold off viking play and then mutas would pop and kill me off or at least push me back. viking are my favorite unit if you can get this to work please lemme know and include reps but I personally couldn't get it to work.
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1) You will need the starport more for medivacs. Your ground army will suffer the more you stim.
2) Getting 3/3 ship upgrades will take an awful long time, even with double armory. Plus you will need infantry upgrades more than the ship ones.
3) Making 24 vikings in TvZ is very unrealistic. Your vikings won't be effective until you reach that "critical mass," so it will take a long time.
Basically, I don't think this is feasible since you will need to sacrifice your ground army for a better air army.
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I just did this same test. The Vikings won with and without upgrades.
I've tried this strategy in game as well. It's tough sense the Zerg can replenish their army with a variety of units... It's important to have a strong defense at home while your Vikings are out and about.
The test vs. Corrupters: the Corrupters won pretty convincingly. Even when using corruption. Go test this urselves lol. The corrupt range is like 1 shorter than the attack range.
Vikings have the ability to Kite both mutas and corrupters for a few shots which could make a huge difference. Add a fully charged raven to the vikings if u want to see true air superiority! jaja=
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So how do you get that many vikings without compromising so much? Are you going to put those starports up right away and defend with marines? Or play normally and then gather a critical mass of vikings? 150/75 is quite expensive. Not only that, 24 of them take away 48 supply, and which limits the amount of your overall ground forces significantly. Give us a build order, or a replay showing this in the works.
It looks good on paper but if you can't bring it out in the game, it's useless. Suppose you play normally and you can bring in a critical mass of vikings by late game, what unit composition will you have that can win you the game? Zerg will just over run you with waves of forces. Sniping overlords down in the late game with mass vikings doesn't really help, especially when you can only do it when zerg forces aren't at base to defend their overlords. If you find their forces missing and free overlords to kill, you're already in trouble.
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As soon as I see more than 1 Starport per base and more than 1 base I'll immediately go Roach Hydra and a move all over your base.
It's not viable and very gimmicky
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On November 17 2010 16:52 Azzur wrote:Yes, it's true that vikings are cost effective against mutas. It is even more pronouned with the +1 armor upgrades (because the +1 armor negates more than the +1 muta attack). The issue with vikings vs mutas are as follows: 1. Vikings come out of starports while mutas from larvae. That means the zerg can outproduce you. 2. Vikings can't hit ground. If they have more mutas than you (esp when you don't have your upgrades yet), how would you snipe overlords? However, I do believe that vikings are viable once the terran establishes a solid 3rd base with PF/turrets. This allows them to fall back if needed. I talked about a thor/banshee/marine (add vikings late-game) macro-defensive build: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=169447
Yes, Vikings can hit ground, just not effectively as they die quite fast to zerg ground units. Use viking range to snipe mutas, and if mutas tried to close on vikings, run to the MMM and fight them on top of your marines. I've owned 9 mutas with 3 un-upgraded vikings this way. Of course, my opponent was kinda noob and was angry at me earlier for sniping his overlords and drones... ~XD~
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interesting. did you focus fire with either of them?
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If I played a terran who got vikings, I would just take map control with my mutas since they are way faster than vikings, while putting my overlords over my queens supported by hydras and transition to a hydra heavy army. Even if the terran killed all my mutas with his vikings, I would just roll his viking army with the hydra army later, there's no way a terran can transition as fast as a zerg. What a terran could do is use his vikings completely defensively, camping them over towers at their bases. That would stop my muta harass, which is annoying since mutas are expensive, but that would just give even more map control so the end result would probably be the same.
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EPT
