|
On November 18 2010 05:26 SCdinner wrote:Show nested quote +On November 18 2010 04:41 ltortoise wrote:On November 18 2010 04:38 SCdinner wrote:
If you can suprise them then go for it. If they spot it it only takes 40 seconds to build a hydra den and 33 seconds to build 20 hydras that will own your 24 vikings. Actually I beg to differ. If I'm playing against a Zerg who is so bad that he saves up 2000 minerals and 1000 gas to make 20 hydras at once, chances are I've already won  I think the OP is discussing how vikings can in theory, dominate the air. He's not trying to say Zerg has no counter to vikings (LOL). And seriously, do you honestly think the counter is to save up 2000 minerals and 1000 gas and then make 20 hydras all at once? Somehow this doesn't sound wise. It takes 40 seconds to build, thats enough time to save up around that much. If you have 3600 minerals and 1800 gas for you're vikings that will be owned by 2000 minerals and 1000 gas of hydras you have the unwise strat. I was saying it will be countered quickly if spotted and would only work well if you can keep it a secret.
This is silly. What are you going to do before those hydras pop? Cry? Make nothing? Why couldn't I just land my Vikings and kill your whole base while you are just lazily saving up for Hydralisks? How about I just go kill ALL your Overlords so you can't make ANY Hydralisks?
But really, nobody claimed that you can win a game by making nothing but Vikings.
For instance, I'm mostly interested in this thread because Vikings become very important in the late game, and I want to know when I can be at an advantage facing whatever amount of Mutas he makes.
PS. If my opponent is making hydras, I feel like I already have an advantage anyway since you can't even attack with them really. It would take them about five years just to get to my base.
|
On November 18 2010 05:30 Griffith` wrote:
I never said that terrans should go PURE vikings, but rather mix in 50/50 tank/viking. Tanks should completely destroy hydra/infestors, the two "counters" to this.
This strat seems to work better for TvT. The tanks don't counter mass speedlings well enough. Against 264 zerglings 24 tanks don't stand a chance. Then the hydras can come in and mop up the vikings easy.
|
On November 18 2010 05:34 ltortoise wrote:Show nested quote +On November 18 2010 05:26 SCdinner wrote:On November 18 2010 04:41 ltortoise wrote:On November 18 2010 04:38 SCdinner wrote:
If you can suprise them then go for it. If they spot it it only takes 40 seconds to build a hydra den and 33 seconds to build 20 hydras that will own your 24 vikings. Actually I beg to differ. If I'm playing against a Zerg who is so bad that he saves up 2000 minerals and 1000 gas to make 20 hydras at once, chances are I've already won I think the OP is discussing how vikings can in theory, dominate the air. He's not trying to say Zerg has no counter to vikings (LOL). And seriously, do you honestly think the counter is to save up 2000 minerals and 1000 gas and then make 20 hydras all at once? Somehow this doesn't sound wise. It takes 40 seconds to build, thats enough time to save up around that much. If you have 3600 minerals and 1800 gas for you're vikings that will be owned by 2000 minerals and 1000 gas of hydras you have the unwise strat. I was saying it will be countered quickly if spotted and would only work well if you can keep it a secret. This is silly. What are you going to do before those hydras pop? Cry? Make nothing? Why couldn't I just land my Vikings and kill your whole base while you are just lazily saving up for Hydralisks? How about I just go kill ALL your Overlords so you can't make ANY Hydralisks? But really, nobody claimed that you can win a game by making nothing but Vikings. For instance, I'm mostly interested in this thread because Vikings become very important in the late game, and I want to know when I can be at an advantage facing whatever amount of Mutas he makes. PS. If my opponent is making hydras, I feel like I already have an advantage anyway since you can't even attack with them really. It would take them about five years just to get to my base.
Did you read my last sentance? That point was is it will work if you can do it in secret. Your describing what will happen if they never do scout it which I said will work. Once he finds out you have 73 seconds window to use them. Also if you do land your vikings to take out the oppenents base the oppenent can attack with zerglings, roaches and whatever anti ground they have avaible. Vikings GtG abilities are sub par at best.
|
On November 18 2010 05:40 SCdinner wrote:Show nested quote +On November 18 2010 05:30 Griffith` wrote:
I never said that terrans should go PURE vikings, but rather mix in 50/50 tank/viking. Tanks should completely destroy hydra/infestors, the two "counters" to this. This strat seems to work better for TvT. The tanks don't counter mass speedlings well enough. Against 264 zerglings 24 tanks don't stand a chance. Then the hydras can come in and mop up the vikings easy.
Shrug. Then add some pre-igniter hellions which only cost minerals...
All this theory-crafting is silly to me.
OP posts an interesting result that I wasn't aware of (namely that vikings can actually beat mutalisks in mass), and everybody just seems to want to flame him for it.
I'll take the info. Thanks, OP!
|
for everyone saying a zerg player can get 20 mutas out in one time...do all zerg players always have 2000minerals and 2000 gas laying around at all times? and vikings do a decent amount of dps while landed so you cant just leave them flying over your base without pulling ground forces to defend your drones/hatcheries/tech buildings.
|
On November 18 2010 05:45 ltortoise wrote:Show nested quote +On November 18 2010 05:40 SCdinner wrote:On November 18 2010 05:30 Griffith` wrote:
I never said that terrans should go PURE vikings, but rather mix in 50/50 tank/viking. Tanks should completely destroy hydra/infestors, the two "counters" to this. This strat seems to work better for TvT. The tanks don't counter mass speedlings well enough. Against 264 zerglings 24 tanks don't stand a chance. Then the hydras can come in and mop up the vikings easy. Shrug. Then add some pre-igniter hellions which only cost minerals... All this theory-crafting is silly to me. OP posts an interesting result that I wasn't aware of (namely that vikings can actually beat mutalisks in mass), and everybody just seems to want to flame him for it. I'll take the info. Thanks, OP!
That would solve zerglings but the extra minerals needed might prevent the ability to build mass vikings. This would be a variation of the mech push but instead of thors you'd be using vikings for the anti air. I don't think this variation whould be as good because you'd have to upgrade both mech and air.
He did a service with his calculations and I and most people I think are not saying its useless. We're just trying to find the bounds of its uses, its not flames, just discussion.
|
On November 18 2010 05:54 SCdinner wrote:Show nested quote +On November 18 2010 05:45 ltortoise wrote:On November 18 2010 05:40 SCdinner wrote:On November 18 2010 05:30 Griffith` wrote:
I never said that terrans should go PURE vikings, but rather mix in 50/50 tank/viking. Tanks should completely destroy hydra/infestors, the two "counters" to this. This strat seems to work better for TvT. The tanks don't counter mass speedlings well enough. Against 264 zerglings 24 tanks don't stand a chance. Then the hydras can come in and mop up the vikings easy. Shrug. Then add some pre-igniter hellions which only cost minerals... All this theory-crafting is silly to me. OP posts an interesting result that I wasn't aware of (namely that vikings can actually beat mutalisks in mass), and everybody just seems to want to flame him for it. I'll take the info. Thanks, OP! That would solve zerglings but the extra minerals needed might prevent the ability to build mass vikings. This would be a variation of the mech push but instead of thors you'd be using vikings for the anti air. I don't think this variation whould be as good because you'd have to upgrade both mech and air. He did a service with his calculations and I and most people I think are not saying its useless. We're just trying to find the bounds of its uses, its not flames, just discussion.
You can't rely on Thors for anti-air in the late game because of Broodlords (I've already mentioned this several times and you seem to ignore it). Vikings are mandatory unless you just want to gamble on the Zerg never bothering with Broods.
Most Zergs I've played who go Broodlord in response to mech tend to make only exactly as many corruptors as they intend to make into Broodlords, or maybe just a few more, relying on mutalisks and infestors instead for anti-air.
|
On November 18 2010 05:45 kawilson wrote:
for everyone saying a zerg player can get 20 mutas out in one time...do all zerg players always have 2000minerals and 2000 gas laying around at all times? and vikings do a decent amount of dps while landed so you cant just leave them flying over your base without pulling ground forces to defend your drones/hatcheries/tech buildings.
I think the assumption is that if you have 3600 minerals and 1800 gas spent on vikings that the zerg will have around the same amont of reasorces saved up themselves. Unless they're spending it on an army in which case they should be attacking and causing you to have to build units to defend and not be able to build up so many vikings in secret or have to use the vikings at which point they'll have to react.
|
On November 18 2010 05:54 SCdinner wrote:Show nested quote +On November 18 2010 05:45 ltortoise wrote:On November 18 2010 05:40 SCdinner wrote:On November 18 2010 05:30 Griffith` wrote:
I never said that terrans should go PURE vikings, but rather mix in 50/50 tank/viking. Tanks should completely destroy hydra/infestors, the two "counters" to this. This strat seems to work better for TvT. The tanks don't counter mass speedlings well enough. Against 264 zerglings 24 tanks don't stand a chance. Then the hydras can come in and mop up the vikings easy. Shrug. Then add some pre-igniter hellions which only cost minerals... All this theory-crafting is silly to me. OP posts an interesting result that I wasn't aware of (namely that vikings can actually beat mutalisks in mass), and everybody just seems to want to flame him for it. I'll take the info. Thanks, OP! That would solve zerglings but the extra minerals needed might prevent the ability to build mass vikings. This would be a variation of the mech push but instead of thors you'd be using vikings for the anti air. I don't think this variation whould be as good because you'd have to upgrade both mech and air. He did a service with his calculations and I and most people I think are not saying its useless. We're just trying to find the bounds of its uses, its not flames, just discussion.
The main crux of thors is that it is horribly immobile, and gets easily magic boxed by mutas. Where as a critical mass of vikings will give you some form of map control (sniping overlords everywhere) to effectively make the zerg blind. As long as viking upgrades are greater than zero and ON PAR with that of mutas, vikings will dominate air.
|
did you know that a viking almost wins vs a stalker?
sorry, for offtopic, just wanted to state how awesome vikings are.
|
Anyone else sad at how Blizzard nerfed viking ground attack because they thought it affected TvT Viking battles? 
|
the difference is that zerg can make 14-20 mutas instantly and if they are going to lose they can just sac and go to another tech
|
so the problem is the vikings are kind of useless when there's nothing left in the air.
It's TvZ, There's always stuff in the air (ovies) and taking air control in tvz cuts down on zergs map vision, while also forcing zerg to pull their ovies in for fear of losing them. What's also not noted is that throwing in 2-4 ravens to a viking ball will greatly increase their usefulness against mutas with either HSM or PDD the effectiveness of mutas is significantly reduced, not to mention a 'magic box' of viks vs muta balls. with 3x the range of mutas terrans should be keeping them at range with a thor.
|
I have to agree that this probably isn't a viable opening strategy, but potentially abusable with the right map and a good transition. If you go MMM or Marine/Tank against a Zerg opponent (very strong early-game play), you'll likely have a reacor'd Starport anyway. If the Zerg opponent tries to counter with Infestors (VERY hard counter to both MMM and Marine/Tank if micro'd properly), then they're not spending gas on Mutas. Since he has fewer Mutas (if any at all), then you can relatively safely come in with Vikings to snipe some OLs and supply block the Zerg. At the very least, that will slow down their rebuild/counter by a larva cycle.
Also, say you're on a specific map like Lost Temple. If you push in and do some damage, but can't match up against the remnants of a Zerg ground army, you can use your Medivacs to pick up some tanks and lock-down their natural from high ground. Without any gas coming from their natural, they won't have many mutas and you can cover it with Vikings, and even use said vikings to join in on the lockdown when there aren't any OLs/Mutas around to spot the high ground. Going Vikings instead of Turrets will also allow you to defend this lockdown against Broodlords.
That said, there aren't going to be many opportunities like this on a map like, say, Metalopolis.
|
On November 18 2010 05:58 ltortoise wrote:Show nested quote +On November 18 2010 05:54 SCdinner wrote:On November 18 2010 05:45 ltortoise wrote:On November 18 2010 05:40 SCdinner wrote:On November 18 2010 05:30 Griffith` wrote:
I never said that terrans should go PURE vikings, but rather mix in 50/50 tank/viking. Tanks should completely destroy hydra/infestors, the two "counters" to this. This strat seems to work better for TvT. The tanks don't counter mass speedlings well enough. Against 264 zerglings 24 tanks don't stand a chance. Then the hydras can come in and mop up the vikings easy. Shrug. Then add some pre-igniter hellions which only cost minerals... All this theory-crafting is silly to me. OP posts an interesting result that I wasn't aware of (namely that vikings can actually beat mutalisks in mass), and everybody just seems to want to flame him for it. I'll take the info. Thanks, OP! That would solve zerglings but the extra minerals needed might prevent the ability to build mass vikings. This would be a variation of the mech push but instead of thors you'd be using vikings for the anti air. I don't think this variation whould be as good because you'd have to upgrade both mech and air. He did a service with his calculations and I and most people I think are not saying its useless. We're just trying to find the bounds of its uses, its not flames, just discussion. You can't rely on Thors for anti-air in the late game because of Broodlords (I've already mentioned this several times and you seem to ignore it). Vikings are mandatory unless you just want to gamble on the Zerg never bothering with Broods. Most Zergs I've played who go Broodlord in response to mech tend to make only exactly as many corruptors as they intend to make into Broodlords, or maybe just a few more, relying on mutalisks and infestors instead for anti-air.
So you want to skip thors so you'll be more prepaired for broodlords? Then its more of a if he scouts you're not going thors then he has time (I belive you calculated 80 years) to get hydras over to your base with a large hydra/roach/infestor army at you're base instead of going brood. But then you have a chance to scout that and build more tanks. I imagine the zerg might have sucess with going ultras instead so a tank switch won't work as well but by this point in the game its basically a big macro fest and going one or two tech isn't viable anymore
|
On November 18 2010 06:00 ensis wrote:
did you know that a viking almost wins vs a stalker?
sorry, for offtopic, just wanted to state how awesome vikings are.
Viking doesn't beat stalker but can abuse mobility until stalkers have blink.
|
On November 18 2010 06:05 SCdinner wrote:Show nested quote +On November 18 2010 05:58 ltortoise wrote:On November 18 2010 05:54 SCdinner wrote:On November 18 2010 05:45 ltortoise wrote:On November 18 2010 05:40 SCdinner wrote:On November 18 2010 05:30 Griffith` wrote:
I never said that terrans should go PURE vikings, but rather mix in 50/50 tank/viking. Tanks should completely destroy hydra/infestors, the two "counters" to this. This strat seems to work better for TvT. The tanks don't counter mass speedlings well enough. Against 264 zerglings 24 tanks don't stand a chance. Then the hydras can come in and mop up the vikings easy. Shrug. Then add some pre-igniter hellions which only cost minerals... All this theory-crafting is silly to me. OP posts an interesting result that I wasn't aware of (namely that vikings can actually beat mutalisks in mass), and everybody just seems to want to flame him for it. I'll take the info. Thanks, OP! That would solve zerglings but the extra minerals needed might prevent the ability to build mass vikings. This would be a variation of the mech push but instead of thors you'd be using vikings for the anti air. I don't think this variation whould be as good because you'd have to upgrade both mech and air. He did a service with his calculations and I and most people I think are not saying its useless. We're just trying to find the bounds of its uses, its not flames, just discussion. You can't rely on Thors for anti-air in the late game because of Broodlords (I've already mentioned this several times and you seem to ignore it). Vikings are mandatory unless you just want to gamble on the Zerg never bothering with Broods. Most Zergs I've played who go Broodlord in response to mech tend to make only exactly as many corruptors as they intend to make into Broodlords, or maybe just a few more, relying on mutalisks and infestors instead for anti-air. So you want to skip thors so you'll be more prepaired for broodlords? Then its more of a if he scouts you're not going thors then he has time (I belive you calculated 80 years) to get hydras over to your base with a large hydra/roach/infestor army at you're base instead of going brood. But then you have a chance to scout that and build more tanks. I imagine the zerg might have sucess with going ultras instead so a tank switch won't work as well but by this point in the game its basically a big macro fest and going one or two tech isn't viable anymore
This is just theory-crafting nonsense!
I never said ANYTHING about "skipping thors" I said you cannot rely on Thors SPECIFICALLY for anti-air in the late game... Which is true! You can't! Broodlords will rape an army that doesn't have Vikings.
Thus, in a situation where I NEED TO HAVE VIKINGS OUT, I like to know how many I need to hold the air, and what kind of upgrades can help me with that... That's all...
|
On November 18 2010 06:08 ltortoise wrote:Show nested quote +On November 18 2010 06:05 SCdinner wrote:On November 18 2010 05:58 ltortoise wrote:On November 18 2010 05:54 SCdinner wrote:On November 18 2010 05:45 ltortoise wrote:On November 18 2010 05:40 SCdinner wrote:On November 18 2010 05:30 Griffith` wrote:
I never said that terrans should go PURE vikings, but rather mix in 50/50 tank/viking. Tanks should completely destroy hydra/infestors, the two "counters" to this. This strat seems to work better for TvT. The tanks don't counter mass speedlings well enough. Against 264 zerglings 24 tanks don't stand a chance. Then the hydras can come in and mop up the vikings easy. Shrug. Then add some pre-igniter hellions which only cost minerals... All this theory-crafting is silly to me. OP posts an interesting result that I wasn't aware of (namely that vikings can actually beat mutalisks in mass), and everybody just seems to want to flame him for it. I'll take the info. Thanks, OP! That would solve zerglings but the extra minerals needed might prevent the ability to build mass vikings. This would be a variation of the mech push but instead of thors you'd be using vikings for the anti air. I don't think this variation whould be as good because you'd have to upgrade both mech and air. He did a service with his calculations and I and most people I think are not saying its useless. We're just trying to find the bounds of its uses, its not flames, just discussion. You can't rely on Thors for anti-air in the late game because of Broodlords (I've already mentioned this several times and you seem to ignore it). Vikings are mandatory unless you just want to gamble on the Zerg never bothering with Broods. Most Zergs I've played who go Broodlord in response to mech tend to make only exactly as many corruptors as they intend to make into Broodlords, or maybe just a few more, relying on mutalisks and infestors instead for anti-air. So you want to skip thors so you'll be more prepaired for broodlords? Then its more of a if he scouts you're not going thors then he has time (I belive you calculated 80 years) to get hydras over to your base with a large hydra/roach/infestor army at you're base instead of going brood. But then you have a chance to scout that and build more tanks. I imagine the zerg might have sucess with going ultras instead so a tank switch won't work as well but by this point in the game its basically a big macro fest and going one or two tech isn't viable anymore This is just theory-crafting nonsense! I never said ANYTHING about "skipping thors" I said you cannot rely on Thors SPECIFICALLY for anti-air in the late game... Which is true! You can't! Broodlords will rape an army that doesn't have Vikings. Thus, in a situation where I NEED TO HAVE VIKINGS OUT, I like to know how many I need to hold the air, and what kind of upgrades can help me with that... That's all...
I don't think its fair to call it nonsence. I've shown your posts respect by reading them and discussing them it would be nice if you did the same. If you think something I wrote is speficially wrong call me on it but don't call it all nonsence. Its not completely theorycrafting because I've seen a lot of mass viking back in the beta when they were stronger and cheeper and the things I discussed still worked then when vikings were more powerful. My comments are based on the games that I played. Yes in = numbers vikings can destroy air. Its just rare that you get as many vikings as there is muta ouside of 3v3s and 4v4s.
|
On November 17 2010 16:29 Saechiis wrote:
Zerg can switch to hydra pretty easily on a 2base muta set-up. Air control also doesn't protect you from a bling bust.
Viking Hellion might be viable on a map like Scrap Station, getting the Air Attack upgrades and transitioning into Battlecruisers on 3 bases.
Ud just get killed by roaches horrible tactic
|
On November 18 2010 05:45 kawilson wrote:
for everyone saying a zerg player can get 20 mutas out in one time...do all zerg players always have 2000minerals and 2000 gas laying around at all times? and vikings do a decent amount of dps while landed so you cant just leave them flying over your base without pulling ground forces to defend your drones/hatcheries/tech buildings.
You don't need to build 20 mutas at once. I'm fine with the 6-10 that can realistically happen the moment the Spire pops. How many Vikings are you going to have at that time? Remember, Vikings are your anti-air solution here. I'm guessing not enough. If you do, that's fine with me: Mutas are more mobile than Vikings. I can disengage, regroup with another round of Mutas, and try again. Also, don't try to take another base: Mutas will be able to get in and do some damage before you can get all your Vikings there. You can split your Vikings over your bases, but now 24 Mutas can engage your 12 Vikings, kill a few, and retreat before your other 12 have a chance to get there. Rinse and repeat.
This is to say nothing of the actual recommendation: Viking/Tank as a counter to mass Muta. You can't push with that - Zerg counterattacks and you're screwed, not to mention that if at any point Zerg can trade his Mutas for your Vikings, he can rebuild faster and take free tanks, and then the air units don't even matter.
Honestly, this is the problem with the whole "what unit counter X" mentality that Day9 is always talking about: the best counter to a bunch of stuff is even more stuff, which is exactly what Zerg is going to get while you're figuring out how to get 24 Vikings. It doesn't matter what happens at 24 3/3 Vikings against 24 3/3 Mutalisks if that's not a realistic game scenario.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
