If it's like 4 vikings vs 4 mutas and you get flying, first strike, you should run for 1.50 seconds and then shoot again ( 2.00 "Normal" = 1.50 in "Faster" or IRL seconds ) multi-hit and lower cooldown might give them the win in bigger mass, but the upgrades might negate some of it if you have more slightly more vikings to start than mutalisks, you should be able to get a lot of free hits before they get in range to attack you takes 5 viking hits to do 140 damage on an unarmored mutalisk +1/+1 vs +1/+1 has the same effect as the above You should win due to the flying, first strike 4 Vikings should fire at the Mutalisk A on their first attack 3 Vikings should fire at Mutalisk B on their second attack, leave 1 Viking to attack Mutalisk A ( This would allow you to get no shots wasted on over kill on the first Mutalisk )
Vikings cost less gas, more minerals, but terrans get 4.5±0.50 temporary scvs that last for 67.5±0.50 every time they get 50 energy if they decide to use the spell could mix in with mass marines and occasionally hunt overlords
Vikings are not terrible on the ground once you clear out the mutalisks. If zerg is making a bunch of mutas they will not suddenly have a huge ground army (unless he is way ahead and at that point the game is already over). Correct me if this is wrong...but a viking is pretty even against a hydralisk on the ground. The only problem is that they are much less cost effective.
TLO has done mass viking+hellion, it actually worked pretty well. The zerg did beat it, but with some trouble.
The problem with vikings is the time it takes to lift off. A good zerg player will get hydra/muta combined with a ground unit and exploit the timing. Additionally, vikings are not cost effective against ground. So- it could work in a situation like muta/ling if you micro right.
Wow, this is interesting. I always thought mutas > vikings, assuming equal upgrades, numbers, etc. However, I do think it is still worth noting that zerg has the ability to out produce the viking count should they choose to devote their larvae in this fashion.
However, a great post! Until now, as a Zerg, I thought if I saw 3-4 vikings, 3-4 mutas would be just fine, but apparently I should start considering out numbering... However, not sure if this was mentioned, but I'm curious how a mostly muta count with a few corrupters for casting and whatever firepower they can provide between casts, how that might fare vs the vikings...
A terran tried this against me once and I just tech switched to hydras. I ended up losing almost all of my overlords but then I got pissed and just rolled him over with my mass hydra ball. He spent too much micro on the vikings and therefore didn't expand, or have much of a ground force at all. He obviously didn't do this build as well as he could, but if you would like to try this build against me, then add me. My TL name is my name and code.
I think that this would work against mutas, but the problem is that a hydra den takes no time to make and are even cheaper than the mutas so It isn't that hard to just tech switch. Also, the vikings are a HUGE investment. You have to get the factory, a starport, and possibly a reactor on the starport to make double vikings. That is a lot of mins and gas just to get the vikings, so if it doesn't work, then you are in a huge hole for using all of your resources just to snipe a few overlords or mutas, when the zerg can tech switch to hydras in an instant.
i honestly think being slightly defensive and getting techlabs on the starports and pumping battlecruisers would be a better use of your air attack/armor upgrades and starports
BC's decimate mutalisks
corrupters dont even counter battlecruisers _that_ well and if you force your opponent to get corrupters over muta then he cant harass you as well with the muta
BC's otherwise would force your enemy to go hydralisks, which are the worst unit a zerg can get vs terran
BC's take 90 seconds to build from a techlab starport and they are so beefy and can be micro'ed back and repaired by 1-2 SCV's pretty quickly
imo battlecruisers are the key to lategame TvZ
EDIT: dont even upgrade yamato cannon until you have 4+ battlecruisers which can now use energy on it. dont upgrade behemoth reactors its not worth it when bc's start with some energy anyway and if you wait a while you can use yamato
problem with late-game BCs/viking/banshee is that hydras are still very cost-efficient against all terran air, and essentially forces some form of ground.
regardless, I employ vikings in TvZ in late-games where I force zerg to transition to muta/blords, pre-emptively get +1 air armor, and just smile
I as a terran player experimented with this a few months ago and the problem is not that you are unable to get the tech going or that the upgrades take a long time the problem is that vikings take so much longer to replenish after the initial battle. Even if you win a 20v20 battle vs mutas the zerg player can rebuild those mutas in one build cycle where it takes a terran player 5 build cycles even with 2 reactored starports. The only way that I was able to make mass viking work was to throw in a thorship or 2 with my viking army and drop them wherever the fight takes place. Even if you can make all that work you have invested a ton of resources and micro into gaining air control and a good zerg usually just mass expands and tech switches to ling/bling in my experience. Take this with a grain of salt as I am only a ~2200 terran player and maybe someone with better control/macro would be able to pull this off more effectively.
Ive never seen vikings work against mutas. I simply always have more and focus firing i think is a huge factor with mutas. Even if u get more vikings than i can handle with mutas queens and hydras just make them drop like flies. I dont understand why a terran would mass something as expensive as vikings simply to counter mutas when they have better and more versatile units at their disposal.
I have actually been working on a viking marine build for a while now and I have been able to get quite a few wins with it. Also people don't realize that landed vikings aren't actually that bad, in an equal food battle landed vikings can beat hydras, and possibly roaches not quite sure about that one. Anyways here is a replay of me doing this build TvZ viking-jungle basin given im still in plat and so was my opponent so I'm not sure if diamond zergs will be able to handle it better than the zerg in the replay. Also if you try this build you can't sacrifice any vikings early game or you will most likely lose, and if at any point your viking count drops to low the zerg will probably just kill you
On November 17 2010 16:15 Xxazn4lyfe51xX wrote: I feel like mass vikings would be nice if you could suddenly make them materialize on the field. The problem is getting to that point is rather hard if you tech to a starport quickly and Z comes knocking on your door with ground forces. Even if it is as you say, and you manage to get mass vikings, 3/3 upgrades take a LONG time to research, and from what you've said, unupgraded mutas beat vikings 1:1, so for a heavy part of the game, Z will have an aerial advantage that will be very hard to defend against if you're trying to build that many vikings.
From my 20v20 A-move tests, the Vikings win.
The issue with your a-move test is that you won't get an on par of 20 vs 20.
A zerg player makes 9 mutas when they first get their spire AND start +1 attack at the same time. A terran player is not able to do this. Simply put, to get the mass it takes a long time, meanwhile the zerg player pops 12 hydras at once and kills all your vikings giving his mutas free reign again. Also mutas can dance around with their greater movespeed.
On January 02 2011 14:44 Anomaly_ wrote: I have actually been working on a viking marine build for a while now and I have been able to get quite a few wins with it. Also people don't realize that landed vikings aren't actually that bad, in an equal food battle landed vikings can beat hydras, and possibly roaches not quite sure about that one. Anyways here is a replay of me doing this build TvZ viking-jungle basin given im still in plat and so was my opponent so I'm not sure if diamond zergs will be able to handle it better than the zerg in the replay. Also if you try this build you can't sacrifice any vikings early game or you will most likely lose, and if at any point your viking count drops to low the zerg will probably just kill you
Equal food doesn't mean equal cost or equal production time. Hydra's cost 100M 50G, Roaches 75M 50G while Vikings cost 150M 75G. More importantly though, they both build significantly faster, 33 and 27 seconds vs 42 seconds ... and that's on top of Zergs ability to produce faster.
Stupid thing with Vikings is that they aren't useful for anything besides air dominance, you are already fighting uphill to beat mutalisks and even if you do manage to gain air control you're stuck with floating Vikings which will get decimated for cost by anything Zerg has on the ground.
For mass air to work as a terran your vikings MUST apply some harass/pressure after killing his muta. You would probably need a few banshee to get in the needed damage to key units.
The thing is if you over-commit to vikings you're behind unless you deal some serious damage, in the same way you can't over-commit to phoenix play as toss.
IMO a terran with air control is useless without banshees included. But I believe if used correctly it could work.
this experiment is fucking retarded. they dont cost the same and there would never be a situation where a terran could produce more or even as many viking as a zerg could make mutas.
People are forgetting that they are going air. Mix in some ravens for point defense done. If you use tanks and bunkers to secure 2-3 bases while you build up your air forces. Since you get vikings you make fewer turrets and a couple sensor towers to prevent early muta harass from raping you.
The goal is to force an engagement between the vikings and mutas in such a way that you can get some clutch pdd's. It would be s sweet to pull off a timing with vikings ravens with pdd and a ton of banshees. This would exploit the fact that pdd prevents every form of zerg aa. Hydra, corruptor, spore crawler, muta and queen.
On December 11 2010 17:03 nalgene wrote: If it's like 4 vikings vs 4 mutas and you get flying, first strike, you should run for 1.50 seconds and then shoot again ( 2.00 "Normal" = 1.50 in "Faster" or IRL seconds ) multi-hit and lower cooldown might give them the win in bigger mass, but the upgrades might negate some of it if you have more slightly more vikings to start than mutalisks, you should be able to get a lot of free hits before they get in range to attack you takes 5 viking hits to do 140 damage on an unarmored mutalisk +1/+1 vs +1/+1 has the same effect as the above You should win due to the flying, first strike 4 Vikings should fire at the Mutalisk A on their first attack 3 Vikings should fire at Mutalisk B on their second attack, leave 1 Viking to attack Mutalisk A ( This would allow you to get no shots wasted on over kill on the first Mutalisk )
Vikings cost less gas, more minerals, but terrans get 4.5±0.50 temporary scvs that last for 67.5±0.50 every time they get 50 energy if they decide to use the spell could mix in with mass marines and occasionally hunt overlords
EPT
