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Griffith`
714 Posts
On November 17 2010 17:47 friscosav wrote: interesting. did you focus fire with either of them? No I didn't focus - But to those who said transition to hydras, keep in mind that terran doens't have to go pure vikings, it could be 50/50 tank viking, and hydras just suck in general against terran, IIRC. | ||
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AnAngryDingo
United States223 Posts
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debasers
737 Posts
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Jtn
444 Posts
Obviously this is all theorycrafting but...yeah. | ||
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Insanious
Canada1251 Posts
On November 18 2010 03:24 Griffith` wrote: No I didn't focus - But to those who said transition to hydras, keep in mind that terran doesn't have to go pure vikings, it could be 50/50 tank viking, and hydras just suck in general against terran, IIRC. the problem with this, is how fast a Z can get out 20 mutas vs 20 vikings off 1 starport. If you go 2 starport then that is -1 factory... 3 starport = -2 factory. A viking takes 42 seconds to produce. You can produce 2 vikings out of a reactor starport. Will take 4minutes 20 seconds to get 20 vikings out of 1 starport. 2 reactor starports = 2:10 Mutalisks take 33 seconds to build, and 6 can be made at the same time. Meaning what 1 hatch can do in production in 1:33 it takes ~4 reactor starports... That Z will be on two base, so takes 1:01 to make 20 mutas (if they had 2000/2000)... this means you would need 8 reactor starports to make 20 vikings in the same amount of time. - - - - - I know this is a stupid comparison... but lets just look at this for a second. Say you scout the spire, and its half done, the zerg will be able to make 8 mutas when the spire pops, you start making vikings out of your reactor starport as soon as you can the spire (say your reactor just finishes) Spire = 100s Muta = 33s Spire is half done = 50s So in 1:23 you have to make 8 vikings... unfortunately you can only get out 4 vikings in that time. So its 4 vikings vs 8 mutas and who wins that one? - - - - - - Think of late game, say you have 20 vikings, that's 40 supply. Me as Z has just lost all my mutas to your vikings. So then I make Roach hydra and the T macroes up... Now when you fight say both players have 60 food in workers. T comes to fight with 100 food (-60 in workers -40 in vikings) vs 140food worth of hydra/roach. With an army 40% smaller, the likely hood of the T winning is very very small. Then, with you 100 food army, even if you are holding, as the Z losses units it replaces say 24 food (3 base) with lings. The loss of that 40 food will mean a HUGE difference in winning vs losing a battle. - - - - - There is a reason 1 - 4 vikings is great vs Z (kill overloards, help control the muta population, scout for tanks) but over all, not something you mass simply because a tech switch will kill you. Instead, just mass marines they murder mutas and are great vs everything Z can make... banes suck but micro + maruders + tanks makes banes somewhat less scary. | ||
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TheDrill
Russian Federation145 Posts
This would look something like an sc1 marine/dropship/valkyrie build. | ||
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GinDo
3327 Posts
350mins/100gas Calculating my guess is that off of two bases you'll be producing alot seeing how mineral heavy it is. | ||
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ltortoise
633 Posts
1. Adding a raven (or more) for PDD spam, does pretty good against mutas and GREAT against corruptors. 2. Spreading vikings vs mutalisks to prevent bounce damage. Vikings have such high range that the spreading shouldn't hurt their dps much (if at all). Edit: 3. Infestors can really put a damper in all this. Huge AoE plus infested Terrans. Losing a ball of Vikings is a good way to INSTANTLY lose the game due to how expensive they are. | ||
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SCdinner
Canada516 Posts
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Dominator1370
United States111 Posts
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ltortoise
633 Posts
On November 18 2010 04:38 SCdinner wrote: If you can suprise them then go for it. If they spot it it only takes 40 seconds to build a hydra den and 33 seconds to build 20 hydras that will own your 24 vikings. Actually I beg to differ. If I'm playing against a Zerg who is so bad that he saves up 2000 minerals and 1000 gas to make 20 hydras at once, chances are I've already won  I think the OP is discussing how vikings can in theory, dominate the air. He's not trying to say Zerg has no counter to vikings (LOL). And seriously, do you honestly think the counter is to save up 2000 minerals and 1000 gas and then make 20 hydras all at once? Somehow this doesn't sound wise. | ||
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BlasiuS
United States2405 Posts
Mass 3/3 vikings? How in the world are you going to get mass 3/3 vikings without dying? Is the zerg just sitting back and letting you take 2 free expos at the beginning? And comparing equal number of vikings and muta is silly. If you didn't make more than a couple of marines, no factory units, build 2 starports as soon as factor completes, pre-build both reactors, then maybe, just maybe, you'll be able to match his muta numbers with vikings. But skipping everything and going straight for mass viking is complete suicide. | ||
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ltortoise
633 Posts
On November 18 2010 04:45 BlasiuS wrote: You have some pretty outlandish scenarios there. Mass 3/3 vikings? How in the world are you going to get mass 3/3 vikings without dying? Is the zerg just sitting back and letting you take 2 free expos at the beginning? And comparing equal number of vikings and muta is silly. If you didn't make more than a couple of marines, no factory units, build 2 starports as soon as factor completes, pre-build both reactors, then maybe, just maybe, you'll be able to match his muta numbers with vikings. But skipping everything and going straight for mass viking is complete suicide. I don't think he ever said or implied that massing up vikings from the start is a good idea. Where are you getting these ideas from? And of course the scenarios are outlandish because nobody upgrades air anyway, despite it actually being not that expensive to do. The OP was just trying to open our eyes to an outcome that we might not have expected. Personally, I'd be far more interested to see how 1/1 Vikings fare against Mutalisks than 3/3 Vikings. Even 2/2 would be infinitely more practical. Vikings are definitely relevant in late-game TvZ when/if Broodlords are out. Edit: I just wanted to add that it's really NOT SILLY AT ALL to compare pure Viking against pure Mutalisk. Why? Because they're both air units, so it's possible for them to battle where ground units aren't around. Furthermore, Mutalisks are faster, so it's possible for the Zerg to force a confrontation if you're out in the open, and if you run away you'll just take damage while dealing none, maybe even losing some precious Vikings. So yeah. Not silly. | ||
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BlasiuS
United States2405 Posts
On November 18 2010 04:49 ltortoise wrote: I don't think he ever said or implied that massing up vikings from the start is a good idea. Where are you getting these ideas from? you serious? read the OP: On November 17 2010 16:10 Griffith` wrote: Matchup is 24 clumped vikings vs 24 mutas. As I said in my post you just quoted, comparing equal numbers is silly. X vikings v X mutas is not realistic in any way. The only way to match muta production is to skip everything and go straight for mass viking. Read my post again if you missed that part. So yes, saying you'll have as many vikings as he has muta DOES IMPLY that you are massing vikings from the start. On November 18 2010 04:49 ltortoise wrote: Edit: I just wanted to add that it's really NOT SILLY AT ALL to compare pure Viking against pure Mutalisk. Why? Because they're both air units, so it's possible for them to battle where ground units aren't around. Furthermore, Mutalisks are faster, so it's possible for the Zerg to force a confrontation if you're out in the open, and if you run away you'll just take damage while dealing none, maybe even losing some precious Vikings. So yeah. Not silly. Again, I didn't say comparing only muta v viking was unrealistic. I said comparing equal numbers of muta v viking was unrealistic. Pretty key difference there. | ||
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ltortoise
633 Posts
If I did a unit test of unsieged tanks vs stalkers, does that mean I should just start massing unsieged tanks while skipping everything else? Get real. Comparing equal numbers of Viking and Muta is pretty close to realistic as a late game scenario since the gas cost is pretty close. The burst production of Zerg evens out with every other race over the course of the game. In the end, everybody needs resources to make units and that's the ultimate limiting factor in production. In the late game, Broodlords are one of the two big threats, and vikings are critical in that battle. I'm absolutely interested in how upgraded Vikings can do against Mutalisks specifically because of this. Thank you OP for your research! Looking forward to more, including 1/1 and 2/2, and maybe even some viking spreading micro if you can. I might do some testing myself. | ||
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Griffith`
714 Posts
On November 17 2010 16:52 Azzur wrote: Yes, it's true that vikings are cost effective against mutas. It is even more pronouned with the +1 armor upgrades (because the +1 armor negates more than the +1 muta attack). The issue with vikings vs mutas are as follows: 1. Vikings come out of starports while mutas from larvae. That means the zerg can outproduce you. 2. Vikings can't hit ground. If they have more mutas than you (esp when you don't have your upgrades yet), how would you snipe overlords? However, I do believe that vikings are viable once the terran establishes a solid 3rd base with PF/turrets. This allows them to fall back if needed. I talked about a thor/banshee/marine (add vikings late-game) macro-defensive build: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=169447 I should point out that, its not so much the +1 armor that makes the difference, rather vikings effectively get +2 attack per attack upgrade, where as mutas only get +1. The +1 armor on vikings even out with the mutas +1 attack. I will do more testing on 1/1 and 2/2 . Also I'm doing mass/clump tests because 0/0 vikings actually beat 0/0 mutas for small numbers (I think for numbers <10). Mutas only tend to overwhelm mass, unupgraded vikings. | ||
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DuneBug
United States668 Posts
But realistically if i start seeing mass viking i'll go get infestors. Just like i do vs mass muta or mass phoenix or mass void ray. Fungal growth dominates air. Armorys are also cheaper than spires so you can get air upgrades quicker, if you wanted to. | ||
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Griffith`
714 Posts
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SCdinner
Canada516 Posts
On November 18 2010 04:41 ltortoise wrote: Actually I beg to differ. If I'm playing against a Zerg who is so bad that he saves up 2000 minerals and 1000 gas to make 20 hydras at once, chances are I've already won I think the OP is discussing how vikings can in theory, dominate the air. He's not trying to say Zerg has no counter to vikings (LOL). And seriously, do you honestly think the counter is to save up 2000 minerals and 1000 gas and then make 20 hydras all at once? Somehow this doesn't sound wise. It takes 40 seconds to build, thats enough time to save up around that much. If you have 3600 minerals and 1800 gas for you're vikings that will be owned by 2000 minerals and 1000 gas of hydras you have the unwise strat. I was saying it will be countered quickly if spotted and would only work well if you can keep it a secret. | ||
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Griffith`
714 Posts
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