EPT0/0: 10x2 = 20 damage per shot
1/1: (11 damage - 1 for armor) x 2 = 20 damage per shot.
The huge advantage for vikings at 1/1 comes from the fact that mutalisk bounce damage is crippled by the viking armor.
[R] mass vikings against zerg seems viable? - Page 4
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specter
United States2 Posts
0/0: 10x2 = 20 damage per shot 1/1: (11 damage - 1 for armor) x 2 = 20 damage per shot. The huge advantage for vikings at 1/1 comes from the fact that mutalisk bounce damage is crippled by the viking armor. | ||
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Zombo Joe
Canada850 Posts
Now that I'm thinking about it, Couldn't Reactored Vikings transition well into Mass Marine Battlecruiser? You already have the Starport and the Barracks and during the time you could make Reactors with the Factory in preparation for it. | ||
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DuneBug
United States668 Posts
On November 18 2010 06:20 Dominator1370 wrote: Honestly, this is the problem with the whole "what unit counter X" mentality that Day9 is always talking about: the best counter to a bunch of stuff is even more stuff, which is exactly what Zerg is going to get while you're figuring out how to get 24 Vikings. It doesn't matter what happens at 24 3/3 Vikings against 24 3/3 Mutalisks if that's not a realistic game scenario. good post. zerg doesn't really want to build 24 mutas anyway, especially against terran. they just want to build about 10 or so to help them harass and transition to tier3. I guess terran could go ahead and build 10-15 vikings and get +1 armor +1 weapons but as a zerg player i'd be okay with that. I'd probably make a few extra queens in response, and make sure my overlords were either out on the fringes or clustered in my base with 5 queens under them. Late game zerg usually has a lot of extra minerals. If it's just a question of what unit do I mass in a 4v4 then yeah get vikings and MMM. | ||
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Elean
689 Posts
I don't compare the cost of vikings with the cost of muta. I compare the cost of vikings with the cost of anything else in the terran army that can shoot air. So if we look only at cost effectiveness, vikings might be the worst choice. The real question is probably why do you want to make vikings to begin with ? And once you have found an answer to this, you should ask yourself if it is worth it in comparaison with the advantages of the other anti-air solution terrans have. | ||
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Keilah
731 Posts
Granted zerg can build any one specific unit in great numbers better than the other races. But does that make the supporting tanks/marines/ravens/marauders/whatever useless? No. | ||
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Elean
689 Posts
On November 18 2010 07:01 Keilah wrote: Granted zerg can build any one specific unit in great numbers better than the other races. But does that make the supporting tanks/marines/ravens/marauders/whatever useless? No. If vikings need the support of other units, they loose the advantage of the mobility... And it becomes really hard to find a reason to make more than a couple viking... until broodlords come into play | ||
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SCdinner
Canada516 Posts
On November 18 2010 07:01 Keilah wrote: It drives me insane to see so many people who think that zerg can build/rebuild faster. Does zerg get some magical influx of minerals and gas that I never knew about? Does zerg always have a 2:1 advantage in bases? Granted zerg can build any one specific unit in great numbers better than the other races. But does that make the supporting tanks/marines/ravens/marauders/whatever useless? No. Zerg doesn't get magic minerals and units. But they can save up money and larva and then build an entire army at once to counter their oppenents. No other race can do that reasonably. Sure they could build 30 gateways, 20 stargates and 15 robotics facilities or 30 barrack, 20 factories and 15 starports and then build their counter army within 45 seconds like zerg can but that is just unpractical. | ||
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ltortoise
633 Posts
On November 18 2010 07:00 Elean wrote: The real question is probably why do you want to make vikings to begin with ? Honestly, to supply block the living daylights out of the Zerg. If you manage to supply block the Zerg just once, the Vikings have pretty much already paid for themselves. If you can do it continuously or a few times in a row, it's HUUUUUGE damage. Huge. It might even require additional hatcheries and/or queens just to spend their mineral/gas pileup from the supply blocking. Also, air dominance allows for the possibility of Battlecruisers which are a good all-around unit. | ||
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Keilah
731 Posts
I think you mean, 'the Terran player might fuck up and allow the zerg to get away with saving up money and larva" | ||
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SCdinner
Canada516 Posts
On November 18 2010 07:19 Keilah wrote: "But they can save up money and larva " I think you mean, 'the Terran player might fuck up and allow the zerg to get away with saving up money and larva" If a terran does a good job of harrassing/putting on pressure then it is very hard for a zerg to save up to do it. All because its stoppable doesn't mean it doesn't exist. The point they're trying to make is if you're building up a certian unit instead of putting on pressure its easier for zergs to come up with a bunch of counter units quickly than it is for protoss or terran. | ||
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Malminos
United States321 Posts
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P00RKID
United States424 Posts
If a terran was going for BC and they were going to get ship upgrades, it would allow them to also add in vikings to counter muta, but that is more of a very wierd and lategame thing, and still very vulnerable to hydra + infestor. How often do we see ship upgrades or BC in TvZ (besides the rare few times with a BC timing attack) | ||
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TheHumanSensation
Canada1210 Posts
On November 18 2010 05:16 Griffith` wrote: I should point out that, its not so much the +1 armor that makes the difference, rather vikings effectively get +2 attack per attack upgrade, where as mutas only get +1. The +1 armor on vikings even out with the mutas +1 attack. I will do more testing on 1/1 and 2/2 . Also I'm doing mass/clump tests because 0/0 vikings actually beat 0/0 mutas for small numbers (I think for numbers <10). Mutas only tend to overwhelm mass, unupgraded vikings. I'd like to point out that this isn't correct, as a viking's +1 is also reduced twice by the muta's armour (Assuming equally distributed upgrades, of course). However, the +1 armour for the vikings reduces the net damage from mutas by 3 (Bounce damage being 9/3/1). The armours don't all scale this well because of interesting bounce damage scaling, but I'll post up some numbers a bit later. Also, first post. | ||
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Lockindal
United States73 Posts
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FakeDouble
Australia676 Posts
Like the thor, they have a slow attack speed though, so a few accompanying marines do wonders, especially since they will reduce the hits to kill by unupgraded vikings (6 viking hits, 1 marine hit = dead muta). Landed vikings are pretty good at tanking baneling hits in a pinch, more so if you land them in front of your bioball. Their model is slightly bigger than a marauder, and they can eat 1-2 more banelings, since they didn't lose 20 hp to stim. Also, I don't think any units are allowed under the vikings once they've begun their landing animation (screws baneling pathing). | ||
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pwadoc
271 Posts
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DreamSailor
Canada433 Posts
Vikings -can- land, and I think a lot of people forget that, if you open reactor starport on Scrap Station for instance you can get your vikings out before he gets his mutalisks. Move down, land, kill some drones and maybe a queen, take off and kill some overlords. Vikings also do 10+4 armored, not a whole lot of a bonus, but it hits twice. Will always get a shot off before the Mutalisks can get their shot off and if the Mutalisks retreat they also get a free shot. Maybe I'm just wanting to try and experiment with air more lately, but I've been using a lot of Phoenixes and its been working out quite well. Maybe next time I roll terran I'll try for mass vikings. | ||
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SubPointOA
United States183 Posts
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ibreakurface
United States664 Posts
Try making a few and force the zerg to micro queens/make spore crawlers possibly. And maybe a banshee or two with the vikings=deadly? | ||
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IzieBoy
United States865 Posts
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