EPTKingmaker - A New Game
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orgolove
Vatican City State1650 Posts
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orgolove
Vatican City State1650 Posts
1. a red could randomly be chosen as the mayor, leading to an auto -1 town. Actually, eventually one of the reds WILL be chosen as a mayor since the kingmaker is forced to switch his choice every day to a different player. 2. there is no reliable detective. This is huge. So I assume there can't be any more than 2 Assassins. As for the rest, considering the mechanics, There has to be just 1 hero. This leaves us with: 2 Assassin 1 Kingmaker 1 Hero 1 King 4 Town Right now. Since Assassins can PM each other and coordinate, we must make sure the king waits out the full 48 hours every day to have maximum chance the reds can slip up. | ||
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orgolove
Vatican City State1650 Posts
Anyway, Since the King will be different during each day, I say the King should reveal himself the first thing in the morning. It will only benefit the town by preventing the Assassins, if chosen, from plotting through PM, and we'll have the overall context of where's the vote's being headed immediately. There's no special day kill power in this game, so he's safe in that regard. | ||
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orgolove
Vatican City State1650 Posts
It really brings to question why DrH, who's usually a good player, is against this. Really brings a FoS on him. On November 09 2010 12:13 LSB wrote:even if an assassin is chosen as king, nothing will happen. That's not gonna work. -_- You have to remember that an assassin king is an automatic 2KP that can be bought at the cost of 1 life. In the case where there's 5 players left (end of night 2), an Assassin king can just kill a town immediately, then kill the next town at night, gaining an automatic win. Above all else it is extremely important for the kingmaker to not choose a red king. | ||
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orgolove
Vatican City State1650 Posts
Yeah, it's not totally riskless for the reds to be chosen as a king. But the hero lynch also works against townie kings as well. Even if the reds don't get chosen as a king during the first two nights, they have two night kills to hit the hero. Plus, there's 2 days where they can try to manipulate the town into lynching a blue, who has a 1/7 and 1/5 chance, respectively of being a hero. Given this, I think there's better than 1/2 odds that the hero will be revealed at the end of 2nd night. And I don't get it. Pandain, wtf? You just start off right away by randomly voting against a player with no basis? At best, you're bringing suspicion onto yourself as a red who doesn't care who dies as it's not one of your faction. At worst it's going to bite you in the ass if you indeed are red given the many common tells between voting and posting patterns. | ||
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orgolove
Vatican City State1650 Posts
Regarding some questionables: 1. Pandain - I don't think a red would bring so much suspicion onto himself immediately after the game starts. Despite his early vote, I don't think he's one of the assassins. 2. DoctorHelvetica/Amber[Light] - I see any defense of giving the King a free reign as a red trying to leave open the possibility of one of them getting away with killing a green as the king without consequence. I think LSB covered this already, but let me repeat again - there is NO advantage to the town to let the king decide the lynch on himself. The very definition of townies are weaklings whose only advantage is their numbers - how can a rational green throw their only advantage away? Lets see here... On November 09 2010 12:52 Amber[LighT] wrote: I agree with DrH that the King should not solely rely upon the majority to make a decision. It will be better for the spirit of the game for the King to listen to what the town has to say, but instead the King should ultimately make his own decision, and live with it.. You aren't providing any real beneficial reason why it would be beneficial for the town to do this, instead relying on the excuse of adhering to some mysterious "spirit of the game." On November 09 2010 12:52 Amber[LighT] wrote:As far as using the relics I don't think using the random kill is wise. This is a better gambit for the end of the game, when the probability of hitting someone increases. It would be against the interest of the assassins to use this ability except early on, when the probability of hitting themselves is drastically lower. Therefore no King should use the random lynch. Of course you'd say this. On the surface, this seems like a pretty neutral post. But look at this from the standpoint of a mafia. They know who each other is, and thus by analogue already know who they should lynch. A red King will never use the excalibur. And a red king will later refer to this very post to argue why he isn't using it. On November 09 2010 12:52 Amber[LighT] wrote:If we really aren't okay with someone being killed for Day 1 we should use the ability to gain some possible intel. It's not a guarantee but it will give us a better start for day 2. Here you're banking on the fact that 1. merlin can only be used ONCE, and 2. It is UNRELIABLE. Thus, seen from a red point of view, anything the merlin may possibly reveal could comparatively easily be discussed away as bad information. overall, I see Amber's latest post as very condemning. ##Vote Amber[Light] | ||
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orgolove
Vatican City State1650 Posts
On November 09 2010 14:20 Amber[LighT] wrote: Don't you think it would be wise for the assassins to take advantage of eliminating these roles so they can't be used in the late game? You completely misinterpreted my post and went ahead to stretch what I thought about how to execute this game in such a way to make me appear as though I'm negative. It would be wise for you to do a little more research before jumping to conclusions on the vote train. Hopefully the king is not going to act irrationally and come to ridiculous conclusions and justifications for their kills. I'm not going to "vote" for anybody for now since I don't really believe it's going to create a good pro-town atmosphere. The first day kill is going to be bitter for everybody regardless of who we choose. Don't forget... there's only 9 of us... Here you give no actual substantive response to both me and several others in the thread that point out the enormous advantages given to the town, and instead rely on a weak defense that I'm stretching your words. How is it remotely a good idea to give the reds any possibility to kill a townie without consequence? As Hesmyrr mentioned, following this pattern means we will simply default to the standard F9 setup, which has been proven time and time again to be reasonably balanced for the town despite the mafia's ability to influence the arguments. Right now it just appears that you're just trying to leave room for the reds to kill a town without consequence when a red mayor comes around. In your haste, you yourself proved why we should not allow the king to kill whomever he wants, as he can then act irrationally and come to ridiculous conclusions and justifications for their kills And no, I do not agree with the King not revealing himself once chosen. We need to find out what the king is thinking. We have a different king each day, and the game setup does not have any day kills. So there is absolutely no disadvantage to the king being revealed to the towns, and it will only give the Assassins, with their ability to PM, an even better chance to plot behind their backs. Remember - there are -no- PMs for townies! So, here I ask again: King, who are you? | ||
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orgolove
Vatican City State1650 Posts
And the kingmaker probably didn't even look at the "red"-ness of any player and just chose DrH because he's experienced. Note that DrH has been a red in every single game except 1 - hopefully you'll consider your choice a bit longer before just insta-choosing an experienced player. | ||
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orgolove
Vatican City State1650 Posts
As I repeated time and time again, the town is just crippling themselves by not going the route of revealing the king immediately and actually voting on the lynch. I repeated myself so many times, showed reasons over and over and over and over again, but you are so obtuse. Why are you so focused on the "Kingmaker" mechanic? How many times do i have to tell you that if we follow the voting system, this game is just a rehash of the F9 setup? You know, the F9 setup that has been the standard mafia setup and was proven to be pretty balanced, despite all your arguments that the mafia could "influence" the arguments? Revealing and voting for the king's lynch is the ONLY way we can stop the crazy disadvantage the town could get if the kingmaker happens to choose a red and they insta-lynch a town. @DoctorH, your own "grudge" is showing by how emotionally you're responding to my posts -_- You just assume I'm posting negatively against you because of my grudge? I wrote that post against you based on two things: 1. anyone who thinks even for a second realizes that revealing the king and voting on his lynch is the best way to go about it. 2. You call yourself an "experienced" player and yet you were against this, even before the king was chosen. But despite this, the kingmaker still unwisely chose you as the king. I honestly don't know what you were thinking - if you were the hero, then shouldn't you especially be thinking about what's best for the town? And now, we already lost two towns, one of them our ONLY blue. And yet you refuse to reveal the king and vote on the lynch. Sigh, this game is already over. | ||
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orgolove
Vatican City State1650 Posts
Just think about the friggin mechanics. We are already crippled from the start with the lack of a reliable detective. The standard F9 setup is balanced around having one rolechecker and two mafia. Now we not only have a rolechecker, but the mafia is given a chance to control the lynch as they please. It is a setup highly favored for the reds. The only way town has a chance to prevent this is by understanding this and exploiting the town's only advantage - THE NUMBERS. Why are the townies here, if any, still resistant to voting for the lynch? Jesus christ - it's so simple, and yet people are so blinded by the "kingmaker" gimmick that they refuse to see simple logic. I've fought all the way throughout the game to make you guys aware of this. But no... I'm highly suspicious of anyone at this point who keeps arguing for a secret king decision instead of a majority guided vote. This isn't a matter of anger or emotion - it's simple logic. If you are against something that is 100% in favor of giving more power to the town, then you are either a red or a green who will only be a burden to the rest of the town. So I put it here again. My vote is to lynch the first fool that raised the bandwagon against voting: ##Vote: Amber[Light] | ||
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orgolove
Vatican City State1650 Posts
As I mentioned before, Amber[Light] is highly suspicious given he was the first to oppose the vote-lynch system. Any townie who logically considers the circumstances will realize that in fact, having the king follow the vote of the majority is the only way to keep the king under the town's control, and indeed, the only way the town possibly has a chance in this mafia favored setup. Again, this game's setup is simply the standard F9, except there is no reliable detective and the mafia is given a chance to insta-lynch if the "kingmaker" does not think it through carefully. Considering that F9 is balanced around 2 mafia-1 rolechecker-(1doctor)-6 (5) town, you can see where I'm going. We can't do anything about not having a 100% detective, but we can minimize the chance of mafia becoming the king and insta-killing a town arbitrarily then getting away with it by saying "oh he just looked scummy." This is important especially given that we lost our only natural defense against a mafia king. With no hero, a mafia king can kill with impunity. So what's my point? All these arguments shown above were clearly posted not once, but several times. And yet Amber[Light] has time and time again disagreed with forcing the king to follow a majority rule. Only a mafia (or a really dumb townie) would keep going for something that so completely goes against the town's interests. ##Vote: Amber[Light] | ||
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orgolove
Vatican City State1650 Posts
I could only imagine an assassin King coming up with some BS as to why candidate X should be lynched, and the town just idly agrees while candidate X is screaming at the other players that they aren't being reasonable. How many town did we start with? 7. How many scum? 2. That's the only defense we have against the mafia. They know it too, and that's why if you're a mafia, you'd be clearly hoping for the king to be allowed to kill whoever he wants instead of listening to the masses. Plus, you'd be giving yourselves an opening to escape scrutiny even if a red becomes the king, given how easy it would be to say "oh damn, I made a mistake." Thus, only a mafia would keep pushing to establish something that is so anti-town. | ||
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orgolove
Vatican City State1650 Posts
Everything LSB has said regarding the town applies. We need to kill Brownbear. ##Lynch: Brownbear After that get Hesmyrr. | ||
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orgolove
Vatican City State1650 Posts
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orgolove
Vatican City State1650 Posts
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