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OK, OK...first of all I play zerg so take the rest of this for what you will.
Seeing as everyone these days are crying imbalance here and there (i don't think it's all that bad actually but definitely present). I had an idea about leveling what I think is one of the main problems with T's advantage.
Why not make it so each orbital command center can only drop one mule at any given time? This would greatly even the macro mechanics' playing field. If the queen can only spawn larvae once on a hatch, it seems only fair. Even a protoss player can only chrono boost his nexus once at a given time. If too much energy is stored it can be used elsewhere, but the nexus can only take one boost.
The mule as everyone knows is so forgiving it's not even close. I mean unless you build up a full 200 energy almost nothing is lost from forgetting to use mules. We've all seen terrans take a gold expo and drop tons of mules and the economy just skyrockets.
It's not like the energy would go to waste. A scan or even a supply drop is still a super powerful ability to use.
What do you guys think?
Poll: Is limiting the mule to one at a time a good idea?Yes (204) 69% No (84) 28% How about splitting the difference at 2? (8) 3% 296 total votes Your vote: Is limiting the mule to one at a time a good idea? (Vote): Yes
(Vote): No
(Vote): How about splitting the difference at 2?
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There are legitimate reasons for dropping multiples. Dealing with cloaked units? Save energy. Cloaked units all killed? Drop mules and win.
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Until you mentioned the Queen's inability to cast multiple Spawn Larva, I thought "Nah this is too harsh." But you're right.
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Maybe this is because I'm bad and I play against bad players, but I'd almost rather let them spend all their energy on mules. Just gives me more opportunities to burrow under someone or catch them with banelings or something.
All in all, it's an interesting thought, but I'm not sure mules are high on the chopping block in regards to balance. It's certainly annoying to wipe out somebodies economy, only to find out they can drop some mules and catch up. For the sake of not starting yet another TVZ balance thread, though, I'll refrain. I just think that most people would rather see changes elsewhere.
On September 12 2010 15:35 Wolfpox wrote:
Until you mentioned the Queen's inability to cast multiple Spawn Larva, I thought "Nah this is too harsh." But you're right.
You're not tied to one creep tumor per queen, though, or heal on a cooldown. You can use more than one chronoboost at a time per nexus.
I know, I know... it's not the same as dropping 5 mules and getting 1500 minerals, but I just thought I'd point it out. There is much more to consider in regards to balance than "X race can do this and YZ can't!"
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I don't get how this is one of T's "big advantages." The better players will always hit these timings and won't build up energy unless it's intentional. Limiting mules to one per OC would hurt the bad players and do nothing to the good players. And besides, isn't the mule a balancing factor made to keep up with protoss and zerg? Forgetting to mule for 10 seconds means other things are slowed down in the build.
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On September 12 2010 15:37 SlowBro wrote:
I don't get how this is one of T's "big advantages." The better players will always hit these timings and won't build up energy unless it's intentional. Limiting mules to one per OC would hurt the bad players and do nothing to the good players. And besides, isn't the mule a balancing factor made to keep up with protoss and zerg? Forgetting to mule for 10 seconds means other things are slowed down in the build.
I've seen a few matches where high level players saved up energy, dropped a gold expo and flooded it with mules. Normal patch - 30 per, high yield 42 per trip. Yes they're limited by time, but it's a gigantic boost in mineral income for the time they're active. That's all I have to say on it though.
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It's more of saving mules for a gold expo that's the problem. If the third terran expo is on gold and he was saving energy off of two other orbital commands, that's a lot of minerals all at once just for getting a gold online 5 seconds ago.
I like the idea... but I'm a zerg player, so my opinion probably doesn't count! I have other ideas concerning zerg though, for one, hydras should come with nitro packs on their backs!
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I think one mule per orbital command is fair, it will punish bad macro or bad decision making for terrans. But if he messed up he can use his energy to add supply or doing some scan (no limitation for this two abilities). i think it's a good idea overall.
Plenty of mules on a gold mineral spot is ridiculous atm...
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actually mule is not forgiving because terran mechanics works in a way that you need to have constant production and think ahead. You can't just get resources and pump out 30 units like zerg. So if you wait with your mules you won't have any units and then when you use all your mules you will have more resources than you can spend.
And mule is nerfed enough already since you can't use it later on because it shares energy with scan.
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I'm pretty sure that on fully saturated one base zerg/protoss vs one base terran, the terran will effectively have a 25% better mineral income because of the mules, which is part of the reason why terran is able to be so strong off of a single base.
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Terran is just the new Protoss. The only "imbalance" worth a discussion is marauder's building destroying capability.
Going back to your MULE story, OC is already pretty limited by its mana. Due to terran's very expensive detector, many of the current builds used at high levels include OC mana. Also a pro would not spam MULE until they have enough OC to waste because you would not have the production capability or the gas to handle the spike of mineral income. Mana is rather saved for emergency like a critical supply block or scan.
MULE is already pretty nicely balanced out with its low HP. I am very upset as well that even a 13 year old Terran can beat a respected zerg player like cella. But its a problem much more complicated than something that would be solved just from limiting the number of MULEs that can be dropped. I think the main problem lies in the fact that workers mine 5 minerals at a time and each mineral nod contain 1500. It makes 1 base strategies too good. Also the maps are too small and narrow for zerg to fight.
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sorry but i dont see how this can possible make sense. a zerg player van stock pile all their larvas early game it wont happen cuzz thats when you have to be crisp on ur timings and macro. in the early game you will never see any good players with un used larvas, however late game yo will have alot of spare larvas. same can be said for the OC early game there isnt much room to slip on macro and let your orbital build up energy. however late game you might have 3 orbitals at 200/200 just spame E and cLl dow 12 mules. and crono boost can be used right after the otjer so you can constantly keep up fSter production.
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Yes, it's a very good idea.
I'd even go further and limit the maximum CC energy to 75. That way the Terran can't save up a lot of energy and has to sacrifice a bit of economy to keep scans ready (which should help the mid- and lategame a lot).
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On September 12 2010 15:44 MegaVolt wrote:
Yes, it's a very good idea.
I'd even go further and limit the maximum CC energy to 75. That way the Terran can't save up a lot of energy and has to sacrifice a bit of economy to keep scans ready (which should help the mid- and lategame a lot).
This would only be a valid fix if there were 75 MULE energy and 75 scan energy too. Double the regen rate in total, but punishes people who don't use them properly.
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one at a time MINING per expansion, yes. I wouldn't mind calling them down for repair or somethign else.
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On September 12 2010 15:43 freshiie22 wrote:
sorry but i dont see how this can possible make sense. a zerg player van stock pile all their larvas early game it wont happen cuzz thats when you have to be crisp on ur timings and macro. in the early game you will never see any good players with un used larvas, however late game yo will have alot of spare larvas. same can be said for the OC early game there isnt much room to slip on macro and let your orbital build up energy. however late game you might have 3 orbitals at 200/200 just spame E and cLl dow 12 mules. and crono boost can be used right after the otjer so you can constantly keep up fSter production.
I am sorry to inform you, but your post doesnt make much sense.
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On September 12 2010 15:50 heishe wrote:
one at a time MINING per expansion, yes. I wouldn't mind calling them down for repair or somethign else.
Yeah we can add this too the tooltip 
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On September 12 2010 15:43 freshiie22 wrote:
sorry but i dont see how this can possible make sense. a zerg player van stock pile all their larvas early game it wont happen cuzz thats when you have to be crisp on ur timings and macro. in the early game you will never see any good players with un used larvas, however late game yo will have alot of spare larvas. same can be said for the OC early game there isnt much room to slip on macro and let your orbital build up energy. however late game you might have 3 orbitals at 200/200 just spame E and cLl dow 12 mules. and crono boost can be used right after the otjer so you can constantly keep up fSter production.
a zerg player can stockpile his larvae just as a terran can stockpile his minerals. the only difference is that we can't quickly get 12 larvae if we miss cooldowns, just like you can quickly get 1k minerals if you miss mule cooldowns.
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How about 100 energy mule, 50 energy scan?
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EPT
