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Simple idea for nerfing the mule... - Page 3

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Sentient
Profile Joined April 2010
United States437 Posts
September 12 2010 07:22 GMT
#41
In the late game, once minerals are mined out and there is base trading, it is very infuriating when Terran sneaks into the gold for 60 seconds and gets a couple thousand minerals from all the MULEs saved up. It doesn't feel particularly fair or balanced. That said, I'd rather see Spawn Larvae tweaked to become more lenient to imperfect timing.
cHaNg-sTa
Profile Blog Joined March 2008
United States1058 Posts
September 12 2010 07:22 GMT
#42
On September 12 2010 16:09 Apexplayer wrote:
Yay nerf terran hate. Im sorry our 150 mineral macro mechanic doesnt fend off anti-air, let us avoid making production facilities all together, and spread crap all over the map to make our units imba fast.

I bet you op is zerg, and not just looking at his icon

Heaven forbid you make an observor or raven to get rid of the creep.
Jaedong <3 HOOK'EM HORNS!
TSL-Lore
Profile Joined January 2009
United States412 Posts
September 12 2010 07:25 GMT
#43
Actually this is really true. Its not like the excess energy from forgetting to MULE would be completely wasted because you can always drop supply or scanner sweep, just like how zerg can transfuse and tumor, and just like how Protoss can chrono boost buildings other than the nexus.

Everything is somewhat equivalent except the Terran... quite odd.
I want to become stronger. -Shindou Hikaru
eLiE
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
Canada1039 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-09-12 07:28:35
September 12 2010 07:25 GMT
#44
On September 12 2010 16:02 SlowBro wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 12 2010 15:52 heishe wrote:
On September 12 2010 15:43 freshiie22 wrote:
sorry but i dont see how this can possible make sense. a zerg player van stock pile all their larvas early game it wont happen cuzz thats when you have to be crisp on ur timings and macro. in the early game you will never see any good players with un used larvas, however late game yo will have alot of spare larvas. same can be said for the OC early game there isnt much room to slip on macro and let your orbital build up energy. however late game you might have 3 orbitals at 200/200 just spame E and cLl dow 12 mules. and crono boost can be used right after the otjer so you can constantly keep up fSter production.


a zerg player can stockpile his larvae just as a terran can stockpile his minerals. the only difference is that we can't quickly get 12 larvae if we miss cooldowns, just like you can quickly get 1k minerals if you miss mule cooldowns.


A zerg can stockpile larva and build all of them instantly if their standing army dies. Very powerful at 200/200 supply. A terran production is limited to however many unit building structures he has (which cost resources) so if he loses his army he's in alot of trouble. If he ever misses his production building timings he can't suddenly get 2 units to make up for it. If zerg has such a "forgiving" feature then why can't terran have one?


alright, forgiving is the last word i would use for the spawn larvae mechanic. to effectively use spawn larvae, you need to be using it every 25ish seconds, not just going 5 eeeeee mineral patches, but going 6 v shiftclick minimap hatcheries, or going 6 v shift tab click tab click etc., or by going 6v click, 7v click, 8 vclick, etc. and if you miss spawn larvae say, in the middle of a battle, you cant just do it 5 times in a row to catch up, you have to do it once, wait 25 seconds, and do it again after waiting, so if you arent on top of it ALWAYS, you wont have any larvae for reinforcements. plus, once u use up that stockpile in a mad dash after your forces died before even engaging a mech ball, u have to wait at least a a minute or so to have a decent amount of larvae again. if a terran forgets, he can just shoot down like 10 mules and have a shmillion minerals in a minute. not forgiving at all.

EDIT:

On September 12 2010 16:22 cHaNg-sTa wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 12 2010 16:09 Apexplayer wrote:
Yay nerf terran hate. Im sorry our 150 mineral macro mechanic doesnt fend off anti-air, let us avoid making production facilities all together, and spread crap all over the map to make our units imba fast.

I bet you op is zerg, and not just looking at his icon

Heaven forbid you make an observor or raven to get rid of the creep.


or use a scan instead of getting a mule. and really, the creep just makes some units less terribly slow, like the queen and the poor hydra.
How's the weather down there?
GameTime
Profile Joined May 2010
United States222 Posts
September 12 2010 07:26 GMT
#45
I don't think mules are overpowered, it's only like 270-300 minerals anyways. I think spawn larvae is a better macro mechanic anyways.
Only the winner deserves to win.
Adonisto
Profile Joined May 2010
Canada191 Posts
September 12 2010 07:30 GMT
#46
I agree with the OP, mule are way too effective IMO. Late game chrono boost is almost useless but mule is just as good even better. A Terran can keep up with the income against a Protoss with 20-25 less harvester in late game.

So one at the time or this:
On September 12 2010 15:52 a176 wrote:
How about 100 energy mule, 50 energy scan?
Cohedra
Profile Joined July 2010
United States51 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-09-12 07:36:04
September 12 2010 07:32 GMT
#47
I believe the mule is fine, and not something I'd change if I had my crack at it. It's a huge benefit if they manage to secure a gold, but if they hadn't saved those mules they would have had more minerals earlier - possibly getting them a bigger army of even expanding to the gold even earlier!

Also please stop comparing Mules, Chrono Boost, and Spawn Larvae as if they have to all be equal. Spawn Larvae is unforgiving early game, great, so are Mules and Chrono Boost as you are losing a lot if you don't use them. Late game you have the ability to make an extra Hatchery, heal your units, or use the extra mana to spawn more creep tumors.

There are things wrong with all of the races, but between all the threads you'd think that every single unit terran can make needs to be changed.


Edit: As a zerg player I actually think Chrono Boost is the best macro mechanic. Every time you expand you get another possible chrono boost, and while not as noticeable late-game it greatly increases the speed of upgrades and unit production. I think late-game chrono boosts are underutilized from high level protoss at the moment.
nemahsys
Profile Joined April 2010
Canada457 Posts
September 12 2010 07:33 GMT
#48
On September 12 2010 16:30 Adonisto wrote:
I agree with the OP, mule are way too effective IMO. Late game chrono boost is almost useless but mule is just as good even better. A Terran can keep up with the income against a Protoss with 20-25 less harvester in late game.

So one at the time or this:
Show nested quote +
On September 12 2010 15:52 a176 wrote:
How about 100 energy mule, 50 energy scan?



how is late game chronoboost almost useless?

ps. for the record I think this is a horrible idea.
DJ Wheat, if you read this, plz get Lo3 back on itunes stat!
x7i
Profile Joined July 2010
United Kingdom122 Posts
September 12 2010 07:34 GMT
#49
On September 12 2010 16:25 TSL-Lore wrote:
Actually this is really true. Its not like the excess energy from forgetting to MULE would be completely wasted because you can always drop supply or scanner sweep, just like how zerg can transfuse and tumor, and just like how Protoss can chrono boost buildings other than the nexus.

Everything is somewhat equivalent except the Terran... quite odd.

ay, mule is just a bad idea with bad implementation
chrono and larva allows you to SPEND more money (ie. is economy dependant - increases production capacity), while mule gives you more money to spend (ie. is production capacity dependant - increases economy)

simple idea to fix mule is to have it removed
Sealteam
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
Australia296 Posts
September 12 2010 07:37 GMT
#50
Y'know, at first I thought this was too harsh. However it really does make sense to me. One mule per OC (that is, mule cooldown = time it takes to get 50 energy) and suddenly, using the orbital command properly becomes a question of foresight, skill and thoughtfulness.

Current thought process:
Want minerals but might need scan.
Oh, didn't need scan.
Mule at negligible expense for safety gained by saving scan.

Future thought process:
Mule is up, might need scan
Actually has to make a difficult decision requiring foresight, scouting, and experience.


Then:
Didn't need scan.
Damn I'm behind, guess I'll mule next time in that situation. Still has extra energy to scan in the future.

Did need scan, used mule.
Greedy, died. Like building too many drones or chronoboosting econ too much.


See how phenomenally that increases the terran macro skill requirement with a simple change?
Also requires more timing.
TedJustice
Profile Blog Joined June 2010
Canada1324 Posts
September 12 2010 07:38 GMT
#51
One mule change I would like is if you could drop mules anywhere, even if you don't have vision.

Then you could drop them in someone's base for scouting. Obviously you could just scan, but a scan only sees its one area, and seeing mules used that way would just be cool.

I'm not even a terran player either, I just think it would be neat, and wouldn't affect the balance in any real way.
Unentschieden
Profile Joined August 2007
Germany1471 Posts
September 12 2010 07:39 GMT
#52
On September 12 2010 16:26 GameTime wrote:
I don't think mules are overpowered, it's only like 270-300 minerals anyways. I think spawn larvae is a better macro mechanic anyways.


That would be an Argument if OP were arguing for a nerfec MULE. He just wants to be mean to new Terran Players.
Zerg wont get a superusefull "energydump" on their Queen simply because they can build more than one Queen. For balance reasons Macro has to scale with the amount of Mainbuildings -> taken Expansions.
VonLego
Profile Joined June 2010
United States519 Posts
September 12 2010 07:40 GMT
#53
Why not just make it so mules have to spawn in a small radius around the command center? Seems like a pretty reasonable solution.
GIGAR
Profile Joined September 2010
Denmark88 Posts
September 12 2010 07:41 GMT
#54
I would still prefer it if MULE's cost 4 supply.
This would still allow you to drop a ton at a gold field, assuming you had enough supply, and it should be pretty easy to give some good burst income if your entire army was just wiped out.

Having a 1 MULE limit could work, too, though.
"it pisses me off that blizzard's reaction time to terran tears is about 14 seconds, but apparently the massive oceanic sea of zerg tears is caused by l2p-issues"
Toxiferous
Profile Joined June 2009
United States388 Posts
September 12 2010 07:41 GMT
#55
creates less tension between abilities
i dont like it
bokchoi
Profile Blog Joined March 2010
Korea (South)9498 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-09-12 07:42:56
September 12 2010 07:41 GMT
#56
I'm mixed about this. In some ways I feel like its unnecessary because one of the biggest advantage of mules comes in the early game, where you won't really have the energy stacked to use multiple mules. In addition, high level players will be on top of their energy usage/macro/etc. Whereas, lower level players will constantly mule over scanning, and with poor macro will overstock on minerals with no hope of spending them.

However, at the same time I like it because the comeback factor can be really annoying. Its really fucking annoying when you march through and stomp a Terran and he lifts off his CC or has another CC lifts off and decides to play hide the CC, and thinks he can come back because of mules. Or even when you kill their workers or if they go for some kind of all-in with scvs and recover any potential lost economy due to saved energy and mule call-downs...

I guess being able to fully saturate new expos (esp. high yields) in the mid-late game can be pretty annoying too..
TedJustice
Profile Blog Joined June 2010
Canada1324 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-09-12 07:44:04
September 12 2010 07:43 GMT
#57
Really though, it's not like blizzard didn't make the abilities like that intentionally. The game is supposed to be balanced around multiple mule summons, etc. Buildings and units cost enough that the terran player doesn't get too wildly ahead because of mules.
pechkin
Profile Joined August 2010
158 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-09-12 07:44:16
September 12 2010 07:43 GMT
#58
Orbital drop technologies(supply and mule) should be one more building to build above cc, like
CC> 100 for scan radar> 150 for orbital SAT, because now terrans just get their orbital crap for free - mule worth 2x of orbital upgrades. Also nowadays terrans place expand on their main base and got their minerals back in about minute without even expanding,
[Agony]x90
Profile Blog Joined September 2009
United States853 Posts
September 12 2010 07:43 GMT
#59
I've mentioned something like this before. Best way to implement this, put a CD on mules. CD = time it takes for mule to die naturally.
JF dodger since 2009
Lokian
Profile Joined March 2010
United States699 Posts
September 12 2010 07:46 GMT
#60
On September 12 2010 16:26 GameTime wrote:
I don't think mules are overpowered, it's only like 270-300 minerals anyways. I think spawn larvae is a better macro mechanic anyways.


ONLY??

Terrans have surplous minerals, zergs have multiple spawnings(injection), protoss have fast production(boost)... but everyone knows cash is the most rewarding mechanic. zerg's full macro curve looks exponential, terrans is a hill, and protoss looks more linear (i think). terran has advantage early/mid game in macro imo.. so probably slight change would be cool.

Probably make scans more costly? Make add-on selectable and able to be destroyed by air attacks. same with fortress
Watch my gaming channel: http://www.youtube.com/user/BedinSpace
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