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OK, OK...first of all I play zerg so take the rest of this for what you will.
Seeing as everyone these days are crying imbalance here and there (i don't think it's all that bad actually but definitely present). I had an idea about leveling what I think is one of the main problems with T's advantage.
Why not make it so each orbital command center can only drop one mule at any given time? This would greatly even the macro mechanics' playing field. If the queen can only spawn larvae once on a hatch, it seems only fair. Even a protoss player can only chrono boost his nexus once at a given time. If too much energy is stored it can be used elsewhere, but the nexus can only take one boost.
The mule as everyone knows is so forgiving it's not even close. I mean unless you build up a full 200 energy almost nothing is lost from forgetting to use mules. We've all seen terrans take a gold expo and drop tons of mules and the economy just skyrockets.
It's not like the energy would go to waste. A scan or even a supply drop is still a super powerful ability to use.
What do you guys think?
Poll: Is limiting the mule to one at a time a good idea?Yes (204) 69% No (84) 28% How about splitting the difference at 2? (8) 3% 296 total votes Your vote: Is limiting the mule to one at a time a good idea? (Vote): Yes
(Vote): No
(Vote): How about splitting the difference at 2?
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There are legitimate reasons for dropping multiples. Dealing with cloaked units? Save energy. Cloaked units all killed? Drop mules and win.
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Until you mentioned the Queen's inability to cast multiple Spawn Larva, I thought "Nah this is too harsh." But you're right.
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Maybe this is because I'm bad and I play against bad players, but I'd almost rather let them spend all their energy on mules. Just gives me more opportunities to burrow under someone or catch them with banelings or something.
All in all, it's an interesting thought, but I'm not sure mules are high on the chopping block in regards to balance. It's certainly annoying to wipe out somebodies economy, only to find out they can drop some mules and catch up. For the sake of not starting yet another TVZ balance thread, though, I'll refrain. I just think that most people would rather see changes elsewhere.
On September 12 2010 15:35 Wolfpox wrote:
Until you mentioned the Queen's inability to cast multiple Spawn Larva, I thought "Nah this is too harsh." But you're right.
You're not tied to one creep tumor per queen, though, or heal on a cooldown. You can use more than one chronoboost at a time per nexus.
I know, I know... it's not the same as dropping 5 mules and getting 1500 minerals, but I just thought I'd point it out. There is much more to consider in regards to balance than "X race can do this and YZ can't!"
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I don't get how this is one of T's "big advantages." The better players will always hit these timings and won't build up energy unless it's intentional. Limiting mules to one per OC would hurt the bad players and do nothing to the good players. And besides, isn't the mule a balancing factor made to keep up with protoss and zerg? Forgetting to mule for 10 seconds means other things are slowed down in the build.
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On September 12 2010 15:37 SlowBro wrote:
I don't get how this is one of T's "big advantages." The better players will always hit these timings and won't build up energy unless it's intentional. Limiting mules to one per OC would hurt the bad players and do nothing to the good players. And besides, isn't the mule a balancing factor made to keep up with protoss and zerg? Forgetting to mule for 10 seconds means other things are slowed down in the build.
I've seen a few matches where high level players saved up energy, dropped a gold expo and flooded it with mules. Normal patch - 30 per, high yield 42 per trip. Yes they're limited by time, but it's a gigantic boost in mineral income for the time they're active. That's all I have to say on it though.
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It's more of saving mules for a gold expo that's the problem. If the third terran expo is on gold and he was saving energy off of two other orbital commands, that's a lot of minerals all at once just for getting a gold online 5 seconds ago.
I like the idea... but I'm a zerg player, so my opinion probably doesn't count! I have other ideas concerning zerg though, for one, hydras should come with nitro packs on their backs!
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I think one mule per orbital command is fair, it will punish bad macro or bad decision making for terrans. But if he messed up he can use his energy to add supply or doing some scan (no limitation for this two abilities). i think it's a good idea overall.
Plenty of mules on a gold mineral spot is ridiculous atm...
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actually mule is not forgiving because terran mechanics works in a way that you need to have constant production and think ahead. You can't just get resources and pump out 30 units like zerg. So if you wait with your mules you won't have any units and then when you use all your mules you will have more resources than you can spend.
And mule is nerfed enough already since you can't use it later on because it shares energy with scan.
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I'm pretty sure that on fully saturated one base zerg/protoss vs one base terran, the terran will effectively have a 25% better mineral income because of the mules, which is part of the reason why terran is able to be so strong off of a single base.
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Terran is just the new Protoss. The only "imbalance" worth a discussion is marauder's building destroying capability.
Going back to your MULE story, OC is already pretty limited by its mana. Due to terran's very expensive detector, many of the current builds used at high levels include OC mana. Also a pro would not spam MULE until they have enough OC to waste because you would not have the production capability or the gas to handle the spike of mineral income. Mana is rather saved for emergency like a critical supply block or scan.
MULE is already pretty nicely balanced out with its low HP. I am very upset as well that even a 13 year old Terran can beat a respected zerg player like cella. But its a problem much more complicated than something that would be solved just from limiting the number of MULEs that can be dropped. I think the main problem lies in the fact that workers mine 5 minerals at a time and each mineral nod contain 1500. It makes 1 base strategies too good. Also the maps are too small and narrow for zerg to fight.
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sorry but i dont see how this can possible make sense. a zerg player van stock pile all their larvas early game it wont happen cuzz thats when you have to be crisp on ur timings and macro. in the early game you will never see any good players with un used larvas, however late game yo will have alot of spare larvas. same can be said for the OC early game there isnt much room to slip on macro and let your orbital build up energy. however late game you might have 3 orbitals at 200/200 just spame E and cLl dow 12 mules. and crono boost can be used right after the otjer so you can constantly keep up fSter production.
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Yes, it's a very good idea.
I'd even go further and limit the maximum CC energy to 75. That way the Terran can't save up a lot of energy and has to sacrifice a bit of economy to keep scans ready (which should help the mid- and lategame a lot).
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On September 12 2010 15:44 MegaVolt wrote:
Yes, it's a very good idea.
I'd even go further and limit the maximum CC energy to 75. That way the Terran can't save up a lot of energy and has to sacrifice a bit of economy to keep scans ready (which should help the mid- and lategame a lot).
This would only be a valid fix if there were 75 MULE energy and 75 scan energy too. Double the regen rate in total, but punishes people who don't use them properly.
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one at a time MINING per expansion, yes. I wouldn't mind calling them down for repair or somethign else.
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On September 12 2010 15:43 freshiie22 wrote:
sorry but i dont see how this can possible make sense. a zerg player van stock pile all their larvas early game it wont happen cuzz thats when you have to be crisp on ur timings and macro. in the early game you will never see any good players with un used larvas, however late game yo will have alot of spare larvas. same can be said for the OC early game there isnt much room to slip on macro and let your orbital build up energy. however late game you might have 3 orbitals at 200/200 just spame E and cLl dow 12 mules. and crono boost can be used right after the otjer so you can constantly keep up fSter production.
I am sorry to inform you, but your post doesnt make much sense.
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On September 12 2010 15:50 heishe wrote:
one at a time MINING per expansion, yes. I wouldn't mind calling them down for repair or somethign else.
Yeah we can add this too the tooltip 
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On September 12 2010 15:43 freshiie22 wrote:
sorry but i dont see how this can possible make sense. a zerg player van stock pile all their larvas early game it wont happen cuzz thats when you have to be crisp on ur timings and macro. in the early game you will never see any good players with un used larvas, however late game yo will have alot of spare larvas. same can be said for the OC early game there isnt much room to slip on macro and let your orbital build up energy. however late game you might have 3 orbitals at 200/200 just spame E and cLl dow 12 mules. and crono boost can be used right after the otjer so you can constantly keep up fSter production.
a zerg player can stockpile his larvae just as a terran can stockpile his minerals. the only difference is that we can't quickly get 12 larvae if we miss cooldowns, just like you can quickly get 1k minerals if you miss mule cooldowns.
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How about 100 energy mule, 50 energy scan?
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1 MULE per OC would actually make sense.
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On September 12 2010 15:52 a176 wrote:
How about 100 energy mule, 50 energy scan?
This would make macro even easier.
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Spamming mules on a gold expo is definitely a problem imo
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i dont know if this has been stated but people save energy in case of scans for cheese or if they actually know the opponent has invis, but later when the pressure wears off they can mule... it isnt a constant mule stream like spawn larvae
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On September 12 2010 15:55 godzillathrilla wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2010 15:52 a176 wrote:
How about 100 energy mule, 50 energy scan? This would make macro even easier.
It wouldn't change the macro in a bit. It would reduce the effectiveness of the ability.
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On September 12 2010 15:59 SlapMySalami wrote:
i dont know if this has been stated but people save energy in case of scans for cheese or if they actually know the opponent has invis, but later when the pressure wears off they can mule... it isnt a constant mule stream like spawn larvae
Well then this would allow cloaked units to be used as a tactic to hurt the terrans economy.
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On September 12 2010 15:52 heishe wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2010 15:43 freshiie22 wrote:
sorry but i dont see how this can possible make sense. a zerg player van stock pile all their larvas early game it wont happen cuzz thats when you have to be crisp on ur timings and macro. in the early game you will never see any good players with un used larvas, however late game yo will have alot of spare larvas. same can be said for the OC early game there isnt much room to slip on macro and let your orbital build up energy. however late game you might have 3 orbitals at 200/200 just spame E and cLl dow 12 mules. and crono boost can be used right after the otjer so you can constantly keep up fSter production. a zerg player can stockpile his larvae just as a terran can stockpile his minerals. the only difference is that we can't quickly get 12 larvae if we miss cooldowns, just like you can quickly get 1k minerals if you miss mule cooldowns.
A zerg can stockpile larva and build all of them instantly if their standing army dies. Very powerful at 200/200 supply. A terran production is limited to however many unit building structures he has (which cost resources) so if he loses his army he's in alot of trouble. If he ever misses his production building timings he can't suddenly get 2 units to make up for it. If zerg has such a "forgiving" feature then why can't terran have one?
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On September 12 2010 15:54 Sadistx wrote:
1 MULE per OC would actually make sense.
I prefere like Heishe said 1 mule minning per oc, because cast mule to repair or something else (like drop on siege tank ball) is a useful skill toi have
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Mules last longer than 50 energy recharges so you'd constantly be overdosing on energy, meh, not like the minerals are what screws over zerg, its the gas units.
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People think that calling down 4 mules at 200/200 is just as good as calling down 1 at 50/50 4 times. Resources early in the game are more valuable due to resource inflation, and you can take the money earlier and invest it into getting more (i.e. getting an expo earlier). There is already a punishment for missing your mule timings.
Bad idea.
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Yay nerf terran hate. Im sorry our 150 mineral macro mechanic doesnt fend off anti-air, let us avoid making production facilities all together, and spread crap all over the map to make our units imba fast.
I bet you op is zerg, and not just looking at his icon
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On September 12 2010 16:06 ZlaSHeR wrote:
Mules last longer than 50 energy recharges so you'd constantly be overdosing on energy, meh, not like the minerals are what screws over zerg, its the gas units.
Minerals=more Rax and Marines and Marines+siege tanks screws over zerg...
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On September 12 2010 15:50 heishe wrote:
one at a time MINING per expansion, yes. I wouldn't mind calling them down for repair or somethign else.
A tactic I use in 4v4 is to get 10+ Battlecruisers with 1 or 2 armor upgrade, and pool energy on 3-6 orbital commands for combat repair. Probably wouldn't work in 1v1, but it is a good example of how MULEs are also kind of a bit overwhelming in the repair aspect. It'd almost be like allowing Queens to Transfuse anything on the map, regardless of range, I think?
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I don't like enforcing hard caps, it's bad for the game mmmmkay, still voted yes as its a easy lazy fix
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Prolly 1 Mule at a time per Oribital command, sounds good to me, will make ppl keep up on mules and also will get use out of supply drops more, and saving up on scan will hurt more
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The MULE's purpose is simply to make up for the fact that the SCV has to remain with the construction (yes, zerg does, too, sorta), and since you can spend it any time you want, whether you spend 1 at a time or wait and do 4 they are equally effective. Of course, if you save them up, you're losing out on minerals you could be getting now, giving your opponent some help.
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I don't see any problem with this. It punishes bad macro, but not too harshly--if the T lets energy build up, he can always get rid of the excess with a scan.
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I like the idea of 1 mule at a time as in each orbital command has a mule cool down, say the time it take to regenerate 25 or 50 energy. BUT, if that gets the nerf bat, I'm sure the terrans will want to see a chrono boost cool down. No!!
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On September 12 2010 16:09 Apexplayer wrote:
Yay nerf terran hate. Im sorry our 150 mineral macro mechanic doesnt fend off anti-air, let us avoid making production facilities all together, and spread crap all over the map to make our units imba fast.
I bet you op is zerg, and not just looking at his icon
Nope but your tier 1 marauder kills the queen, production facilities, and everything else all while tanking air. LOLOLOLOL
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In the late game, once minerals are mined out and there is base trading, it is very infuriating when Terran sneaks into the gold for 60 seconds and gets a couple thousand minerals from all the MULEs saved up. It doesn't feel particularly fair or balanced. That said, I'd rather see Spawn Larvae tweaked to become more lenient to imperfect timing.
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On September 12 2010 16:09 Apexplayer wrote:
Yay nerf terran hate. Im sorry our 150 mineral macro mechanic doesnt fend off anti-air, let us avoid making production facilities all together, and spread crap all over the map to make our units imba fast.
I bet you op is zerg, and not just looking at his icon
Heaven forbid you make an observor or raven to get rid of the creep.
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Actually this is really true. Its not like the excess energy from forgetting to MULE would be completely wasted because you can always drop supply or scanner sweep, just like how zerg can transfuse and tumor, and just like how Protoss can chrono boost buildings other than the nexus.
Everything is somewhat equivalent except the Terran... quite odd.
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On September 12 2010 16:02 SlowBro wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2010 15:52 heishe wrote:On September 12 2010 15:43 freshiie22 wrote:
sorry but i dont see how this can possible make sense. a zerg player van stock pile all their larvas early game it wont happen cuzz thats when you have to be crisp on ur timings and macro. in the early game you will never see any good players with un used larvas, however late game yo will have alot of spare larvas. same can be said for the OC early game there isnt much room to slip on macro and let your orbital build up energy. however late game you might have 3 orbitals at 200/200 just spame E and cLl dow 12 mules. and crono boost can be used right after the otjer so you can constantly keep up fSter production. a zerg player can stockpile his larvae just as a terran can stockpile his minerals. the only difference is that we can't quickly get 12 larvae if we miss cooldowns, just like you can quickly get 1k minerals if you miss mule cooldowns. A zerg can stockpile larva and build all of them instantly if their standing army dies. Very powerful at 200/200 supply. A terran production is limited to however many unit building structures he has (which cost resources) so if he loses his army he's in alot of trouble. If he ever misses his production building timings he can't suddenly get 2 units to make up for it. If zerg has such a "forgiving" feature then why can't terran have one?
alright, forgiving is the last word i would use for the spawn larvae mechanic. to effectively use spawn larvae, you need to be using it every 25ish seconds, not just going 5 eeeeee mineral patches, but going 6 v shiftclick minimap hatcheries, or going 6 v shift tab click tab click etc., or by going 6v click, 7v click, 8 vclick, etc. and if you miss spawn larvae say, in the middle of a battle, you cant just do it 5 times in a row to catch up, you have to do it once, wait 25 seconds, and do it again after waiting, so if you arent on top of it ALWAYS, you wont have any larvae for reinforcements. plus, once u use up that stockpile in a mad dash after your forces died before even engaging a mech ball, u have to wait at least a a minute or so to have a decent amount of larvae again. if a terran forgets, he can just shoot down like 10 mules and have a shmillion minerals in a minute. not forgiving at all.
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On September 12 2010 16:22 cHaNg-sTa wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2010 16:09 Apexplayer wrote:
Yay nerf terran hate. Im sorry our 150 mineral macro mechanic doesnt fend off anti-air, let us avoid making production facilities all together, and spread crap all over the map to make our units imba fast.
I bet you op is zerg, and not just looking at his icon Heaven forbid you make an observor or raven to get rid of the creep.
or use a scan instead of getting a mule. and really, the creep just makes some units less terribly slow, like the queen and the poor hydra.
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I don't think mules are overpowered, it's only like 270-300 minerals anyways. I think spawn larvae is a better macro mechanic anyways.
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I agree with the OP, mule are way too effective IMO. Late game chrono boost is almost useless but mule is just as good even better. A Terran can keep up with the income against a Protoss with 20-25 less harvester in late game.
So one at the time or this:
On September 12 2010 15:52 a176 wrote:
How about 100 energy mule, 50 energy scan?
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I believe the mule is fine, and not something I'd change if I had my crack at it. It's a huge benefit if they manage to secure a gold, but if they hadn't saved those mules they would have had more minerals earlier - possibly getting them a bigger army of even expanding to the gold even earlier!
Also please stop comparing Mules, Chrono Boost, and Spawn Larvae as if they have to all be equal. Spawn Larvae is unforgiving early game, great, so are Mules and Chrono Boost as you are losing a lot if you don't use them. Late game you have the ability to make an extra Hatchery, heal your units, or use the extra mana to spawn more creep tumors.
There are things wrong with all of the races, but between all the threads you'd think that every single unit terran can make needs to be changed.
Edit: As a zerg player I actually think Chrono Boost is the best macro mechanic. Every time you expand you get another possible chrono boost, and while not as noticeable late-game it greatly increases the speed of upgrades and unit production. I think late-game chrono boosts are underutilized from high level protoss at the moment.
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On September 12 2010 16:30 Adonisto wrote:I agree with the OP, mule are way too effective IMO. Late game chrono boost is almost useless but mule is just as good even better. A Terran can keep up with the income against a Protoss with 20-25 less harvester in late game. So one at the time or this: Show nested quote +On September 12 2010 15:52 a176 wrote:
How about 100 energy mule, 50 energy scan?
how is late game chronoboost almost useless?
ps. for the record I think this is a horrible idea.
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On September 12 2010 16:25 TSL-Lore wrote:
Actually this is really true. Its not like the excess energy from forgetting to MULE would be completely wasted because you can always drop supply or scanner sweep, just like how zerg can transfuse and tumor, and just like how Protoss can chrono boost buildings other than the nexus.
Everything is somewhat equivalent except the Terran... quite odd.
ay, mule is just a bad idea with bad implementation
chrono and larva allows you to SPEND more money (ie. is economy dependant - increases production capacity), while mule gives you more money to spend (ie. is production capacity dependant - increases economy)
simple idea to fix mule is to have it removed
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Y'know, at first I thought this was too harsh. However it really does make sense to me. One mule per OC (that is, mule cooldown = time it takes to get 50 energy) and suddenly, using the orbital command properly becomes a question of foresight, skill and thoughtfulness.
Current thought process:
Want minerals but might need scan.
Oh, didn't need scan.
Mule at negligible expense for safety gained by saving scan.
Future thought process:
Mule is up, might need scan
Actually has to make a difficult decision requiring foresight, scouting, and experience.
Then:
Didn't need scan.
Damn I'm behind, guess I'll mule next time in that situation. Still has extra energy to scan in the future.
Did need scan, used mule.
Greedy, died. Like building too many drones or chronoboosting econ too much.
See how phenomenally that increases the terran macro skill requirement with a simple change?
Also requires more timing.
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One mule change I would like is if you could drop mules anywhere, even if you don't have vision.
Then you could drop them in someone's base for scouting. Obviously you could just scan, but a scan only sees its one area, and seeing mules used that way would just be cool.
I'm not even a terran player either, I just think it would be neat, and wouldn't affect the balance in any real way.
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On September 12 2010 16:26 GameTime wrote:
I don't think mules are overpowered, it's only like 270-300 minerals anyways. I think spawn larvae is a better macro mechanic anyways.
That would be an Argument if OP were arguing for a nerfec MULE. He just wants to be mean to new Terran Players.
Zerg wont get a superusefull "energydump" on their Queen simply because they can build more than one Queen. For balance reasons Macro has to scale with the amount of Mainbuildings -> taken Expansions.
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Why not just make it so mules have to spawn in a small radius around the command center? Seems like a pretty reasonable solution.
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I would still prefer it if MULE's cost 4 supply.
This would still allow you to drop a ton at a gold field, assuming you had enough supply, and it should be pretty easy to give some good burst income if your entire army was just wiped out.
Having a 1 MULE limit could work, too, though.
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creates less tension between abilities
i dont like it
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I'm mixed about this. In some ways I feel like its unnecessary because one of the biggest advantage of mules comes in the early game, where you won't really have the energy stacked to use multiple mules. In addition, high level players will be on top of their energy usage/macro/etc. Whereas, lower level players will constantly mule over scanning, and with poor macro will overstock on minerals with no hope of spending them.
However, at the same time I like it because the comeback factor can be really annoying. Its really fucking annoying when you march through and stomp a Terran and he lifts off his CC or has another CC lifts off and decides to play hide the CC, and thinks he can come back because of mules. Or even when you kill their workers or if they go for some kind of all-in with scvs and recover any potential lost economy due to saved energy and mule call-downs...
I guess being able to fully saturate new expos (esp. high yields) in the mid-late game can be pretty annoying too..
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Really though, it's not like blizzard didn't make the abilities like that intentionally. The game is supposed to be balanced around multiple mule summons, etc. Buildings and units cost enough that the terran player doesn't get too wildly ahead because of mules.
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Orbital drop technologies(supply and mule) should be one more building to build above cc, like
CC> 100 for scan radar> 150 for orbital SAT, because now terrans just get their orbital crap for free - mule worth 2x of orbital upgrades. Also nowadays terrans place expand on their main base and got their minerals back in about minute without even expanding,
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I've mentioned something like this before. Best way to implement this, put a CD on mules. CD = time it takes for mule to die naturally.
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On September 12 2010 16:26 GameTime wrote:
I don't think mules are overpowered, it's only like 270-300 minerals anyways. I think spawn larvae is a better macro mechanic anyways.
ONLY??
Terrans have surplous minerals, zergs have multiple spawnings(injection), protoss have fast production(boost)... but everyone knows cash is the most rewarding mechanic. zerg's full macro curve looks exponential, terrans is a hill, and protoss looks more linear (i think). terran has advantage early/mid game in macro imo.. so probably slight change would be cool.
Probably make scans more costly? Make add-on selectable and able to be destroyed by air attacks. same with fortress
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yep, get off yer freewinning butts terrans and employ a manly macro mechanic!
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On September 12 2010 16:33 nemahsys wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2010 16:30 Adonisto wrote:I agree with the OP, mule are way too effective IMO. Late game chrono boost is almost useless but mule is just as good even better. A Terran can keep up with the income against a Protoss with 20-25 less harvester in late game. So one at the time or this: On September 12 2010 15:52 a176 wrote:
How about 100 energy mule, 50 energy scan? how is late game chronoboost almost useless? ps. for the record I think this is a horrible idea.
When you have more than 3 expo it's impossible to spend all the energy on something useful. You can always dumb it on your 10 warpgate but it's pretty useless... Terran on the other hand have a BIG advantage with mule throughout the game.
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Zerg got the hardest macro mechanic because their macro is the easiest :/.
If anything, toss is the one whos macro mechanic needs to be reworked. Terran have it about as hard with zerg after the building group nerf (where you have to group reactors and tech labs separately now)
I don't see any reasoning behind this besides "I don't like T so any nerf to them is always good".
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to be honest i quite like the idea of simply having a cooldown on the OC, no energy.
that way ur punished for missing a MULE, you can't just pop 4 down when u remember,
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DEFINITELY. I'm a T player myself and this would fix mules. Not only won't you be able to save up 8 mules and get like 10K in 1 min on gold patches. But it makes macro harder. I really like the idea.
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No, its too unforgiving to the T player, and a lot of times its a situational call. I feel it takes too much out of the game, and Mules aren't the main thing that need to be nerfed. Mules by themselves do not win games, and even though Mules give great burst resources, it does mine you out faster.
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On September 12 2010 15:44 MegaVolt wrote:
Yes, it's a very good idea.
I'd even go further and limit the maximum CC energy to 75. That way the Terran can't save up a lot of energy and has to sacrifice a bit of economy to keep scans ready (which should help the mid- and lategame a lot).
Wow, that would destroy Terran scan against coloaked units so much.
If this is added to the game (What OP suggested) Protoss should aswell have a CD on Chrono Boost. In lategame i'm a bitt annoyed about warping in a bunch of units and then boost out another wave of them.
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On September 12 2010 17:04 joi93 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2010 15:44 MegaVolt wrote:
Yes, it's a very good idea.
I'd even go further and limit the maximum CC energy to 75. That way the Terran can't save up a lot of energy and has to sacrifice a bit of economy to keep scans ready (which should help the mid- and lategame a lot). In lategame i'm a bitt annoyed about warping in a bunch of units and then boost out another wave of them.
You do realize that we can only chronoboost so many gateways, and if it is done how much energy do you have left to do a 2nd try?
Back on topic: I think that as it stands Terran has the highest yielding and most advantagous 1-base mechanic out of all the races. So yes, I highly agree that there should be a limiting factor to even it out even just a little so there is better equalization of 1-base play.
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On September 12 2010 16:41 GIGAR wrote:
I would still prefer it if MULE's cost 4 supply.
This would still allow you to drop a ton at a gold field, assuming you had enough supply, and it should be pretty easy to give some good burst income if your entire army was just wiped out.
Having a 1 MULE limit could work, too, though.
I actually somewhat agree with this. I think MULES should cost 2 (4 is too much) while in play, and maybe upgrade to make them cost no supply later? So they don't impede on the 200 supply cap.
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i like the idea and it would be cool to test it and see what happens if it were implemented, but i have my doubts that it will improve balance
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It may be the most forgiving mechanic but for the most part I try to go mech which is mainly limited by gas summoning mules everytime I get 50 energy isn't neccacery. I would much rather have scans. But then huge storm drop occurs that massacre my most saturated expo. If such a situation occured to a toss player they could divide all of their probes up evenly from other bases. Then continuously chrono boast more out of each base and get back up to speed relatively quickly. If zerg have larva already stockpiled they don't have to do anything just make drones. Even if they have no larva at the time spawn larva on a hatchery and you have 4-6 drones you can make relatively quickly. Obviously you cannot build units at the same time but that is another issue. The ability to call down multiple mules from a single orbital command is the terrans way of recovering from said harassment. KEep in mind if they summon a bunch of mules not only do they lose the ability to scan but the mules don't last forever.
Now I do agree the mule needs a change of some sort I think even two would be bad. But what if the mule brought back less of a return per trip but still gave the same overall return and still lasted the same amount of time. (This means it would have to mine faster)
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Why so extreme? Mule harvests six time more minerals per trip than an SCV. This could be reduced to 5, a simple 17% nerf, much safer. Or would that make Terran underpowered early-game? Personally, I hate that mules allow terran to have a good economy after a failed rush.
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I think it would be better if mules didn't overlap the scv's. They would be like normal workers but mine extra minerals. This would even make sense as later on in the game you have full saturation and spend energy on scans anyway. It's ridiculous like we've seen that the terran has like 10 less workers (20v30) and still has higher income. Something has to be done.
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Punishing "forgetting" MULEs doesn't matter much at the top level, so this kind of nerf is mostly concerned with the average player. Moreover, it will reduce the complexity of OC energy decision making. Eg: now T can save energy with purpose for potential battle scans, and use MULE when he feels more secure, which makes his decisions about scanning more challenging actually.
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So two things.
If you make it so the OC can only drop a mule at a time, you HAVE to make it so the Nexus can only chrono boost at one time, or has a CD or something. That's the way these things work. Hell, in Korea, Toss is considered the OP race. As for your comment about only being able to chrono boost once. . well, sure. But it still builds up. The only solution would be to make it have a SHORT cooldown. You don't want to punish Terran for something you're not punishing Toss for. The easy solution is to make queen injecting easier.
Secondly, I hate people saying "I don't think it's that bad" and then making ridiculous statements after not playing the race, and not knowing the game.
EDIT: The MULE isn't the problem. With the MULE the Terran can BARELY COME CLOSE to the Protoss and Zerg economies early game. That's right, CONSISTENTLY MULEing, the Terran is actually a little bit behind.
Sorry for caps, I'm tired but I had to get the point across.
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One idea I thought that would pretty good is giving a range on MULE drops.
This stops you from building an expansion, and immediately dropping 10 MULEs on it from your main/natural that are mined out.
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how about just reduce the lifespan of the mule? =]
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I would actually agree with this. It would make the mechanic much more like the queen, punishing players for slipping up on their mules much like zerg gets punished with the larvae vomit. This would even out the mechanics I think.
I mean, if a terran cant use a mule every 50 energy, he can just scan and supply drop. Zerg if they dont produce larvae, lose the production, but can transfuse in specific situations or spread creep. Sounds even to me
(i assume you meant 1 mule per cc right?)
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On September 12 2010 17:43 Consummate wrote:
One idea I thought that would pretty good is giving a range on MULE drops.
This stops you from building an expansion, and immediately dropping 10 MULEs on it from your main/natural that are mined out.
On September 12 2010 17:44 KillerPlague wrote:
how about just reduce the lifespan of the mule? =]
What about combining both of these. The further away the expantion is from the OC the less time the mule lasts.
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On September 12 2010 15:42 powar wrote:
It's more of saving mules for a gold expo that's the problem. If the third terran expo is on gold and he was saving energy off of two other orbital commands, that's a lot of minerals all at once just for getting a gold online 5 seconds ago.
I like the idea... but I'm a zerg player, so my opinion probably doesn't count! I have other ideas concerning zerg though, for one, hydras should come with nitro packs on their backs!
Wouldn't this prove that it's not the mechanic of mules that's broken, but the gold minerals themselves?
Perhaps some balancing in high yields and expansion patterns is all that needs to be done. I don't believe the mule is broken at all, and in fact it's pretty much required to keep on par with protoss economy early on.
That being said, the OPs idea isn't that dramatic. It isn't necessary either though. I'll have to veto this one.
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On September 12 2010 17:32 MythicalMage wrote:
So two things.
If you make it so the OC can only drop a mule at a time, you HAVE to make it so the Nexus can only chrono boost at one time, or has a CD or something. That's the way these things work. Hell, in Korea, Toss is considered the OP race. As for your comment about only being able to chrono boost once. . well, sure. But it still builds up. The only solution would be to make it have a SHORT cooldown. You don't want to punish Terran for something you're not punishing Toss for. The easy solution is to make queen injecting easier.
Secondly, I hate people saying "I don't think it's that bad" and then making ridiculous statements after not playing the race, and not knowing the game.
EDIT: The MULE isn't the problem. With the MULE the Terran can BARELY COME CLOSE to the Protoss and Zerg economies early game. That's right, CONSISTENTLY MULEing, the Terran is actually a little bit behind.
Sorry for caps, I'm tired but I had to get the point across.
Where is your source for Protoss being the most OP race in Korea? I would be interested to read.
With the MULE, the Terran can become barely close? I suppose that is why on equal bases, Terran has by far the highest resource collection rates.
Protoss should be expanding the same time as Terran, and if Terran are getting more resource income, then that would imply that with MULEs, Terran have an economic advantage.
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There should be one chrono boost atm time too then >_<
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On September 12 2010 15:42 Samhax wrote:
Plenty of mules on a gold mineral spot is ridiculous atm...
So is injecting larva til your tech building finishes and spawning a million of them? Or spreading creep over the map?
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United Kingdom16710 Posts
its a decent idea but then blizzard will also have to slightly buff the production time of SCVs since terran will have a hard time keeping up with chrono boosted probes and spawn larvae drones.
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If it was up to me it would last about 50% longer but only mine as fast as a normal scv, then it would be used to shoot in to repair more and it wouldn't be ridiculously overpowered.
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I think everyone is over reacting to the MULE because it seems weird that this energy only unit can harvest so much. And yeah, I can see where that's coming from, but I'll explain why Terran have the MULE.
What people need to realise is that Terran cannot make units faster. Their macro mechanic only affects how fast they can gather resources. It does not affect the speed at which they can make units and workers, and this is most noticable in the early game where Terran needs to get the OC up so they can catch up in income as they cannot speed up production in the case of Protoss, or make multiple units like Zerg can. As the game goes on Terran has to shell out more and more money for unit producing structures and add ons to keep up production. Zerg makes a hatchery if they need to, and protoss makes maybe one more, possibly two, robos or stargates, plus a couple more gateways, but just chrono boosts everything else to get out units faster, and this is where the MULE comes in. Using the MULE constantly and efficiently allows you to keep up a steady stream of production, and the more you miss out on building units, the more money you stockpile, the more money you can't spend without making more buildings to make units. MULEs reward players with good macro, like the larva inject and chrono boost, but they all reward people in different ways. Adding limits to this would be stupid and by that logic you should add limits to chrono boosts and the queens abilities.
One small thing I want to mention though, is that the MULE links with supply drop and scan, where Zerg has to balance creep tumours and (very rarely) transfuse with their larva inject, and Protoss.. nothing. Screwing up a scan with Terran hurts a lot more in the early game than getting a creep tumour and missing out on 4 larva, and there are a few situations as Terran where you want to save up energy and lose out on income to increase it later to have scans avaliable for pushing for detecting invisable units or seeing up ramps, and if you dont need the energy then, you can call down several MULEs to make up for it later in order to catch back up on production.
Is the MULE awesome? yes. But not many people realise the ups and downs of mules and how having them is like a double edged sword, where they can help but you can suffer a lot if it gets sniped for example and you build relies on that money the MULE gets, which most do. Infact, most of the people that do realise these things are Terran users (because we play the race) rather than the Zerg and Protoss users that want to nerf it because they don't have something like it.
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Wait why would anyone agree with this? The MULE is not at the heart of any of the reasons why Terran may be overpowered (which I'm not sure I even agree with)
Then again I play Terran, so I'm sure my opinion is totally invalidated.
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Yeah, Zerg can't multiple inject Larva. Protoss can't stack chronos to make it 50%/100%/150%/200% faster -- so why should Terran get to mine n% faster for failing at macroing?
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Germany / USA16648 Posts
Teamliquid is not interested in everyone's personal balance suggestions, especially not when more than half the people in here obviously have no idea what they are talking about
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EPT
