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SC2 Ladder Misconceptions FAQ

Forum Index > SC2 General
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Excalibur_Z
Profile Joined October 2002
United States12235 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-06-01 02:04:44
September 05 2010 05:43 GMT
#1
Since the release of SC2 I've noticed a lot of recurring -- in fact, frequently asked -- questions regarding the ladder system. This thread is intended to address those questions. Please use this thread in conjunction with the Ladder Analysis threads in order to better understand the ladder.

SC2 Ladder Analysis Part 1: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=118212
SC2 Ladder Analysis Part 2: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=142211
SC2 Ladder Analysis: Division Tiers: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=169830
SC2 Master League Information: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=183626

League Information

Q: What do the different symbols, like the exclamation point, red arrow, and green arrow mean when viewing a division?
A: An exclamation point means that the player has been placed in that division but not played any games last week. A green arrow means that the player has increased in rank within the division since last week. A red arrow means the player has fallen in rank within the division since last week. A dash (--) means no change in rank since last week despite games played. You can hover over each icon in-game to view the player's previous rank or division join date from the in-game ladder browser.

Q: Will the ladder be divided into seasons?
A: Yes, eventually. The length of a season has not been announced by Blizzard, but all ratings are expected to be wiped at that time. MMR will persist across seasons.

Matchmaking

Q: I'm only in Silver, so why am I being matched against Platinum players?
A: Two possible answers: either your MMR is too high for your current league, or your opponents' MMRs are too low for their current league. Look at your match history. Are you commonly being matched against players from higher leagues? If so, you have an opportunity for promotion. Look at your opponents' match histories. Are they commonly being matched against players from lower leagues? If so, they are at risk of demotion.

Q: If I've never played 1v1, but I'm 2v2 Diamond, who will I face in 1v1 Placements?
A: Your performance in other brackets is considered when initially seeding your placement matches. In this case, you'd likely be paired with a Diamond player to start.

Q: What does Favored/Slightly Favored/Teams Even mean on the loading screen?
A: Favored status compares your opponent's hidden MMR with your displayed rating. If his MMR and your displayed rating are similar, it will show Teams Even and the match will be worth 10-14 points. If his MMR is slightly higher than your displayed rating, it will show your opponent as Slightly Favored and the match will be worth 15-19 points for a win (5-9 for a loss). If his MMR is significantly higher than your displayed rating, it will show your opponent as Favored and the match will be worth 20-24 points (0-4 for a loss).

Q: Is it possible for both players to see the other as Favored?
A: Yes, because it compares the opponent's MMR to the player's displayed rating. This is common when both players haven't played many games, meaning their MMR is higher than their displayed rating.

Q: I'm in Bronze with 0 rating and a poor win ratio. I'm only getting 2 or 4 or 6 points -- including bonus pool -- for a win, but losing 22 points for a loss! Why is this happening, and how will I possibly get above 0 rating as long as this is happening to me?
Fixed in 1.3
A: This one was tough to figure out because it doesn't make a whole lot of sense on the surface. Point gains and losses that are that extreme can only mean that you're Favored in every single match, but how is that possible if you're already in Bronze with 0 rating? The answer is that your MMR can go below Bronze 0. Because your rating -- which is zero -- is higher than your MMR which is somewhere far below zero, you will constantly be Favored. Because of the way MMR gains work, however, as long as you maintain a positive win ratio, you will eventually find matches where you are Slightly Favored and ultimately Teams Even and beyond. At that point, you will start to gain more points than you lose.
Speculation: This may be a remnant from Beta, either from when Copper league was removed or when players started at 0 rating when they used to start at 1000 rating. It could be that Bronze 0 is equal to Beta's 1000 rating (and therefore Bronze 0 = 1000 MMR).

More info: Allowing MMR to dip below the minimum point value is one way to help ensure that inflation beyond the bonus pool does not occur. The player who loses will have his MMR dip below Bronze Zero, which will cause him to be Favored in every matchup and therefore, because points drift toward MMR, he will remain at zero. This means that any points that are gained are quickly taken away by any losses, thus vacuuming up any points that would have been not really "earned" by the points floor until his MMR rises above the equivalence of Bronze Zero. This stops the production of extra points from the floor of 0.

More broadly, your points drift towards your MMR. Because of this mechanism any inflation that occurs will be counteracted by the game outcomes. That is, if point inflation in fact existed, then your points would eventually outpace your MMR and you would then start gaining less points on a win and losing more points on a loss, thereby negating any "inflation" that might occur. Note that this assumes that MMR does not inflate.

EDIT: Oh hey looks like this is a bug: http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/627980513?page=2#29

...what you're experiencing is indeed a bug and we're in the process of developing a fix. We wanted to make sure that you and any other players experiencing this don't get discouraged. The fix will require you to keep playing once it's applied for it to resolve the cycle you're in, so we hope you'll continue doing just that.


Promotion and Demotion

Q: Do I need to be first in my division to get promoted, or last in my division to get demoted?
A: No! Your rank is a result of your displayed rating and is not relevant to any promotion chances or demotion risks.

Q: Do I need to reach a particular point value to get promoted?
A: No. Promotions happen independently of your displayed rating.

Q: I've been at rank 1 in my division forever, why haven't I been promoted?
A: Take a look at your match history. If you're commonly facing opponents from your league, then you're right where you should be. If you're commonly facing opponents from higher leagues, you may be promoted once your MMR's moving average reaches a certain league threshold.

Q: I won 10 games in a row! Why am I not promoted yet?
A: Your MMR and moving average may not have reached stability, or the system is simply unconfident about you. Expected outcomes cause you to stabilize the fastest. Your MMR will continue to rise until you hit your skill ceiling, at which point your win ratio will decrease and your rating will start to stabilize.

Q: Do I need to lose 7 games before being promoted?
A: No. There is not much point to gaming the system. Play as you would normally and if you belong in Diamond you will be promoted within a very reasonable number of games. People are regularly promoted with < 7 losses. People like CauthonLuck are significant outliers and you will almost certainly not have his problem.

Q: I'm in Bronze. Is it possible to get promoted directly to Gold?
A: Yes. It's possible to go from any league to any other league, wherever your MMR and sigma stabilize. Viewing your match history and the profiles of your opponents should clue you in to where you're likely to be promoted next.

EDIT 3/14: Internal changes to the ladder system appear to have prevented "league skipping". The system is a little more aggressive about promoting players into new leagues, now.

Q: I just lost a game but I got promoted, how is this possible?
A: The system evaluates a trend of games, not just the most recent game. The answer is always the same: your MMR and sigma have stabilized and your moving average has come to rest within the boundaries of a higher league, and that loss contributed to your stability because it was an expected outcome.

Q: Is it possible I haven't been promoted because my APM or end-game score isn't high enough?
A: Both factors are irrelevant because they can be gamed. The only contributing factor to promotion is the end outcome (win or loss) and the skill level of your opponent (his MMR). This is confirmed by Blizzard's Leagues and Ladders FAQ, found in a sticky at the top of the Multiplayer and eSports forum.

Bonus Pool

Q: How do I increase my bonus pool? Do I have to not play?
A: Your bonus pool increases at the same rate regardless of whether or not you're playing. The rate of gain is about 1 point per 2 hours. More accurately, 1 point per 112 minutes.

Q: If I start a new team, won't my bonus pool be smaller than teams that have been active for a month?
A: The bonus pool total is the same for everyone. If a team was created last month and has accumulated 600 bonus pool, your new team will start with 600 bonus pool. The total bonus pool accumulates from launch day, meaning regardless of your account creation date, division join date, or whatever, it will be equal to everyone else's total.

Q: Is the bonus pool considered in any calculations? How can that be accurate if it constantly inflates ratings?
A: It has been confirmed that the bonus pool is not factored into any MMR or displayed rating calculations.

New Questions

Q: I haven't read the Ladder Analysis threads linked above, but I totally will, I promise. MMR? Sigma? What do these terms mean?
A: MMR stands for Matchmaking Rating, and it's a hidden value that determines your opponents. MMR fluctuates greatly based on your wins and losses to various players, far more than your displayed rating. Sigma is the statistical symbol for standard deviation, and it represents an uncertainty factor (because not everyone plays at the same skill level all the time). Sigma determines your range of opponents.

EDIT 10/25/2010: Made several clarifications in light of information gained from Blizzcon 2010.

EDIT 3/14/2011: Noted that "league skipping" is no longer possible and that system promotions are slightly more aggressive than before.
Moderator
Rhyme
Profile Joined May 2010
United States1069 Posts
September 05 2010 05:48 GMT
#2
thanks, this should definitely get stickied!
dont ever say that
Subversion
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
South Africa3627 Posts
September 05 2010 05:56 GMT
#3
this is really interesting, and i've read the analysis posts.

but i have to ask, is this info just kind of intellectually thumbsucked by you?

i mean, aren't you essentially guessing how the system works?
Raelcun
Profile Blog Joined March 2008
United States3747 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-09-05 05:58:21
September 05 2010 05:57 GMT
#4
Bonus pool starts accumulating when you create your account, you should clarify that even if you dont play any multiplayer it will still be accumulating.

edit: @ above most of this data has been figured out and tested in multiple sources you can find most of this on liquipedia plus unofficial confirmations from other sources etc etc he's just consolidating the information
Excalibur_Z
Profile Joined October 2002
United States12235 Posts
September 05 2010 05:59 GMT
#5
On September 05 2010 14:57 iCCup.Raelcun wrote:
Bonus pool starts accumulating when you create your account, you should clarify that even if you dont play any multiplayer it will still be accumulating.


It's actually more fundamental than that: it accumulates from launch day. Point well taken, though, I'll make the edit.
Moderator
SichuanPanda
Profile Blog Joined March 2010
Canada1542 Posts
September 05 2010 06:00 GMT
#6
No new info here for me, but a great FAQ for all parties needing help with the Ladder system. Great post!
i-bonjwa
EternaLEnVy
Profile Blog Joined February 2009
Canada513 Posts
September 05 2010 06:01 GMT
#7
wtf does MMR mean? Match Making RatinG? N what does that mean still
Hell in my head
Raelcun
Profile Blog Joined March 2008
United States3747 Posts
September 05 2010 06:01 GMT
#8
On September 05 2010 14:59 Excalibur_Z wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 05 2010 14:57 iCCup.Raelcun wrote:
Bonus pool starts accumulating when you create your account, you should clarify that even if you dont play any multiplayer it will still be accumulating.


It's actually more fundamental than that: it accumulates from launch day. Point well taken, though, I'll make the edit.


Are you sure about that? Because in the beta when I didnt register my account name for a few days after it came back up it didnt start accumulating until I actually made an account name and logged in. I placed immediately and had 0 bonus pool. Like if someone buys the game right now and registers they have 600 points?
Excalibur_Z
Profile Joined October 2002
United States12235 Posts
September 05 2010 06:03 GMT
#9
On September 05 2010 15:01 iCCup.Raelcun wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 05 2010 14:59 Excalibur_Z wrote:
On September 05 2010 14:57 iCCup.Raelcun wrote:
Bonus pool starts accumulating when you create your account, you should clarify that even if you dont play any multiplayer it will still be accumulating.


It's actually more fundamental than that: it accumulates from launch day. Point well taken, though, I'll make the edit.


Are you sure about that? Because in the beta when I didnt register my account name for a few days after it came back up it didnt start accumulating until I actually made an account name and logged in. I placed immediately and had 0 bonus pool. Like if someone buys the game right now and registers they have 600 points?


Yep. Otherwise it wouldn't be fair to new users.
Moderator
Raelcun
Profile Blog Joined March 2008
United States3747 Posts
September 05 2010 06:06 GMT
#10
Hmm thats interesting because I thought that was a mechanic to keep players who simply don't play as many games still in the picture ranking wise. Interesting that it accumulates like that for everyone now. I guess this means eventually they will have to do ladder wipes and resets splitting into seasons etc or else new users will have thousands of bonus points and the ladder point inflation would get a little out of control.
ZapRoffo
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
United States5544 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-09-05 06:12:59
September 05 2010 06:07 GMT
#11
On September 05 2010 15:01 EternaLEnVy wrote:
wtf does MMR mean? Match Making RatinG? N what does that mean still


It's an undisplayed guess that the system is making of your "true skill" that doesn't have the build up time that your points take. It's used to match you against other players. The more games you play, the more confident the system becomes in its guess, which is why it takes time to move between leagues, it only moves you once it reaches a certain level of confidence that that's where your skill is.
Yeah, well, you know, that's just like, your opinion man
ZapRoffo
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
United States5544 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-09-05 06:18:04
September 05 2010 06:08 GMT
#12
On September 05 2010 15:06 iCCup.Raelcun wrote:
Hmm thats interesting because I thought that was a mechanic to keep players who simply don't play as many games still in the picture ranking wise. Interesting that it accumulates like that for everyone now. I guess this means eventually they will have to do ladder wipes and resets splitting into seasons etc or else new users will have thousands of bonus points and the ladder point inflation would get a little out of control.


I still think it will end up stabilizing because the higher points rise (assuming MMRs are not inflating), the less you win from your games and the more you lose.

One source of inflation that might exist though is a new player effect. If you assume that players who are starting out online now are in general not very skilled (they were less excited than people who started at launch, or are just new and thus not good), they are adding points and MMR to the system but then not winning much of it off other players (donating MMR increases to existing players), especially if they don't stick around and practice and start winning a lot later.
Yeah, well, you know, that's just like, your opinion man
Excalibur_Z
Profile Joined October 2002
United States12235 Posts
September 05 2010 06:14 GMT
#13
On September 05 2010 14:56 Subversion wrote:
this is really interesting, and i've read the analysis posts.

but i have to ask, is this info just kind of intellectually thumbsucked by you?

i mean, aren't you essentially guessing how the system works?


Essentially. However, we've seen each of these theories validated (or at the least, not disproven). I'll continue to update the original post in the event of erroneous information, but I'm pretty confident that everything in there so far is accurate.
Moderator
Manifesto7
Profile Blog Joined November 2002
Osaka27139 Posts
September 05 2010 06:17 GMT
#14
Nice work, put it in the spotlight. Now for the hundreds of "wah Im not in diamond" threads I can just link here.
ModeratorGodfather
Raelcun
Profile Blog Joined March 2008
United States3747 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-09-05 06:19:36
September 05 2010 06:18 GMT
#15
I think one of the key points I've noticed just by observation and would be curious to see if this tests to hold up true is that the system will intentionally set you in unbalanced matchups early on in the matchmaking to try and find your range faster. IE when you first finish placements it seems like every game is vs a player who is strongly favored to win, whenever I go on a winning streak this continues until I start to lose a few games then suddenly I get matched vs a lot of slightly favored opponents in a row.

This represents the matchmaking system becoming more certain of itself so the concept that the ladder actually tries to find you the best possible match (ie evenly matched) seems to be a little bit false as it seems like it likes to throw you into unbalanced matchups to more quickly determine which bracket you truly belong in.
Kimaker
Profile Blog Joined July 2009
United States2131 Posts
September 05 2010 06:21 GMT
#16
Very useful and informative, thanks lots man ^_^
Entusman #54 (-_-) ||"Gold is for the Mistress-Silver for the Maid-Copper for the craftsman cunning in his trade. "Good!" said the Baron, sitting in his hall, But Iron — Cold Iron — is master of them all|| "Optimism is Cowardice."- Oswald Spengler
Excalibur_Z
Profile Joined October 2002
United States12235 Posts
September 05 2010 06:33 GMT
#17
On September 05 2010 15:08 ZapRoffo wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 05 2010 15:06 iCCup.Raelcun wrote:
Hmm thats interesting because I thought that was a mechanic to keep players who simply don't play as many games still in the picture ranking wise. Interesting that it accumulates like that for everyone now. I guess this means eventually they will have to do ladder wipes and resets splitting into seasons etc or else new users will have thousands of bonus points and the ladder point inflation would get a little out of control.


I still think it will end up stabilizing because the higher points rise (assuming MMRs are not inflating), the less you win from your games and the more you lose.


We believe that it's precisely because the bonus pool total is the same for everyone that it becomes an easily-ignored universal variable. This would mean constant inflation (of course, MMRs would not inflate) up until either some very large cap, or straight through to the end of the season. I should probably add that to the FAQ, as well as the fact that there will be seasons.
Moderator
AssuredVacancy
Profile Blog Joined September 2008
United States1167 Posts
September 05 2010 06:38 GMT
#18
Wow didn't know bonus pool accumulates from launch day...

Then kids who buy the game months from now will have like 2k in their bonus pool.
We spend our youth attaining wealth, and our wealth attaining youth.
Excalibur_Z
Profile Joined October 2002
United States12235 Posts
September 05 2010 06:44 GMT
#19
On September 05 2010 15:18 iCCup.Raelcun wrote:
I think one of the key points I've noticed just by observation and would be curious to see if this tests to hold up true is that the system will intentionally set you in unbalanced matchups early on in the matchmaking to try and find your range faster. IE when you first finish placements it seems like every game is vs a player who is strongly favored to win, whenever I go on a winning streak this continues until I start to lose a few games then suddenly I get matched vs a lot of slightly favored opponents in a row.

This represents the matchmaking system becoming more certain of itself so the concept that the ladder actually tries to find you the best possible match (ie evenly matched) seems to be a little bit false as it seems like it likes to throw you into unbalanced matchups to more quickly determine which bracket you truly belong in.


It's important here to distinguish between what favored means in terms of actual matchmaking versus what it means on the loading screen.

The system will always try to find you even matchups based on how large your sigma is. If it's large, the range of potential opponents increases. If it's small, you'll get closer matches.

As far as what it says on the loading screen, that compares your opponent's MMR to your displayed rating, and your displayed rating may not be close to your MMR (or your opponent's, by extension). Because your MMR starts at some nonzero level while your displayed rating does not, it's common for you to see Favored on most or all of your starting matches. If you went on a win streak then lost some, your MMR would naturally be closer to your displayed rating than it was previously, and your sigma would also likely be smaller, which means you'll see more Even/Slightly Favored games than Favored.
Moderator
mOnion
Profile Blog Joined August 2009
United States5657 Posts
September 05 2010 06:46 GMT
#20
really appreciate all the work and research you've put into this excalibur, its amazing
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