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I'm just a 500 point diamond so don't take me too seriously. I tried the FRR (fast roach rush) a bit and noticed that vs mass marines it's hard to roach. So I wanted to test things out a bit.
This table shows some amounts of roaches (no speed roaches were tested) vs marines and how many survive the fight.
![[image loading]](http://imgur.com/3RJ7b.png)
Every line denotes an average of 3 runs in the unit tester. All units in the test were pretty much attack-moved. I tried some micro and it can improve results either way (stimming only back marines, shoot-scooting roaches) but not so much.
Concerning the early game point where it evens out at 9/10 roaches vs 16 marines with CS - I think marines are more cost effective. 800 minerals and 16 food vs 750 minerals, 250 gas and 20 food. So if you want to actually win the battle, you have to have banelings. Problem is until you have speed roaches, banelings don't complement roaches at all because stimmed marines can kite roaches and banelings easily. Speedlings on the other hand can still get hits on marines that are running away from banelings. So I think early on vs marines going a baneling, speedling combo is preferable to anything concerning roaches.
What do you guys think?
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Well really micro makes a big difference, but T1 I'd give the micro advantage to marines because of their ability to kite with stim and longer range. In my experience I only ever want roaches ZvT as a tier 2 unit when speed is available. Otherwise I just feel like they're a drain on my gas and slows down my teching to useful units.
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I've a hard time believing that once you start truely abusing the different range, the different attack speed and the different upgrades (stim against burrow) of both units, the numbers wouldn't change dramatically.
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I'm just a 500 point diamond so don't take me too seriously.
Why not? You provide good, informative data. There's no reason not to take your seriously, unless your data is somehow wrong. Personally, I don't find roaches effective against marines either, especially once stim packs, combat shields, and medivacs come in to play.
So I think early on vs marines going a baneling, speedling combo is preferable to anything concerning roaches.
If he's doing an early marine attack, yes. In fact, if it's before stim, you can probably rely on just a few banelings to defend a mass marine attack.
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That's great data. Like you said one unit more made a huge difference.
Thank you
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You just put in graph form what we already knew: roaches suck vs mass bio. =(
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Which means interestingly it looks like banelings are the only counter to marines that currently exists. Broodlords are arguable if he has tanks and I don't see a big argument for ultras which cost so much gas there is no comparison.
Ling/baneling I suppose is more accurate, assuming you're on creep and have baneling speed.
Roach with ling/baneling is starting to make less sense. Bad vs marines and bad vs marauders. I do think they are useful as back up fire though. Lings just don't get that good in bigger numbers because only so many can attack. (Perhaps go hydras with ling/baneling against pure bio?If you intend to to retreat when your lingbaneling dies unless he's almost dead anyway, having a high hp roach isn't useful. I always thought they were to soak tank fire though, so I'm not sure)
I can see why dimaga is skipping roaches and hydras completely. Looks like roaches counter only hellions and reapers and hydras kill marauders just about. Funny how the mighty have fallen. Roach/hydra used to be standard ZvT. Pretty sure roaches were designed to beat zealots, lings and marines btw. (hint: They destroyed them when they had 2 armour, they only work against lings and zealots in large numbers or with micro against zealots)
Queen/spinecrawler/ling-->muta/ling/baneling-->infestors-->T3 will probably be normal ZvT.
Queen/spinecrawler/ling-->muta/ling-->ultra might become normal ZvP, though roaches still work here because they'er good vs zealot/sentry and stalkers aren't that good straight up units in general.
Man my brain is going overdrive @_@
Burrow roaches make them way more effective though. It just seems like a gimmick when top players start to invest in a raven or an obs just to shut down burrow banelings or infestors.
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T2 is where roaches really shine. move speed is critical, burrow micro is underused by actually very potent, and burrow-move has won me alot of games because if you can get all your roaches up into a fight they are very cost effective for their health and damage (do you remember all those comparisons of just roach health, dps, and cost vs other units in the game that were not accurate because roaches have low range and are slow? those comparisons are reasonable if your roaches erupt directly under your enemy's army).
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I did a 5RR into a group of 5 or 6 marines behind the wall and ultimately pulled back after I lost a couple of my roaches and the wall had yet to fall (it was close but not there). So I agree that roaches typically do not feel very great against marines. The 5RR really only works when they don't start massing marines from the get-go (along with a couple of other more obvious builds).
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On August 27 2010 23:49 fenster wrote:
I did a 5RR into a group of 5 or 6 marines behind the wall and ultimately pulled back after I lost a couple of my roaches and the wall had yet to fall (it was close but not there). So I agree that roaches typically do not feel very great against marines. The 5RR really only works when they don't start massing marines from the get-go (along with a couple of other more obvious builds).
Woops, I should have written 5RR and not FRR. And I think I'll be hurrying to T2 instead of roaching vs terran.
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Thanks a lot for your data, this is some awesome information! And don't degrade yourself because of your rank, pretty much everyone is new to this game, and your rank doesn't effect your ability to run a test like this  .
As for using roaches against Terran, I find my biggest problem is that due to how fast I need to get the roaches out, I usually end up getting the Roach Warren scouted. Once that happens, terran just throws a bunker at his choke, and the investment of my 5 roaches is nonconstructive against the bunker. The Terran then either gets a tank and stim or marauders and marines, at which point my army fairs poorly.
I agree with Slayer91, zerglings and banelings are the way to go in the matchup as of now.
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ye, i tested it also, unupgraded marines start to pwn roaches from 20-ish count and with stim and shields they are god damn own those poor insects, the reasons are obviously range, sick damage, also they are small, so the can attack all at once and they can not overkill, since they got no projectile, so the only thing roaches can kill is zealot, thanks, blizz. Also im surprised there is yet no terran, who posted some crap about " you can spawn 7 roaches at once" and so on..
ps Also if marines focus fire roaches 1 by 1 they kill even with less casualties, since roaches cant FF, they will overkill and lose damage
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On August 27 2010 23:47 sikyon wrote:
T2 is where roaches really shine.
Roaches with burrow shine in tier 2 when observers and Immortals come out for Protoss? Interesting. And don't forget... if roaches are beaten by any tier one units it's not as if those units magically disappear once the Tier 2 units take to the field. That latter point is something that I just don't think a lot of people get... and it becomes even more important when Tier 1 units are able to reach a powerful critical mass, get very good upgrades, and can then get paired with something like a medivac to make them even more powerful.
So the fact that Terran has access to the earliest and least expensive ranged units that can hit air becomes a noticeable advantage for the Terran. Not only can Marines+Marauders beat the Tier 1 & 1.5 units from Zerg and Toss, but this combo stays incredibly potent if the enemy wants to switch to air in tier 2. Marines are also incredibly good against Immortals too.
And then you also have to consider what is backing the MM up in the later tiers which is basically the greatest collection of ranged & AoE units in the game. No other race has as many units that have 9+ range and no other race has as many units that deal splash damage. And this is on top of the cheapest and most effective anti-air unit in the game (which can reach a critical mass against many ground units & gets backed up by medivacs).
So what you're seeing isn't a power shift from Terran being strong in Tier one, then getting weaker at tier 2, and then being balanced in tier 3. Instead you're seeing the Terran get an advantage early on and then watching it grow as any particular game proceeds.
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On August 27 2010 23:40 Slayer91 wrote:Lings just don't get that good in bigger numbers because only so many can attack.
Consequently... the Zerg are ABSOLUTELY forced into a major tech switch (particularly if dealing with air) while the Terran players can essentially stick with producing mass Barracks units throughout the game while backing them up with powerful upgrades (and later tier units only if they so desire). It's not a question of... some units only being a soft counter and prudently choosing to switch if you want, it's a matter of Zerg having no mobile tier 1 or 1.5 anti-air units (much less tier 1 & 1.5 anti-air units that reach critical mass). Sure... you can get some queens to protect your hatcheries, but being so incredibly slow they don't do well out in the field (even with creep) -- and that's important since most air units have a high degree of mobility. It should also be noted that Zerg get no anti-air at tier 3 either.
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On August 28 2010 02:54 NihiloZero wrote:Roaches with burrow shine in tier 2 when observers and Immortals come out for Protoss? Interesting. And don't forget... if roaches are beaten by any tier one units it's not as if those units magically disappear once the Tier 2 units take to the field. That latter point is something that I just don't think a lot of people get... and it becomes even more important when Tier 1 units are able to reach a powerful critical mass, get very good upgrades, and can then get paired with something like a medivac to make them even more powerful. So the fact that Terran has access to the earliest and least expensive ranged units that can hit air becomes a noticeable advantage for the Terran. Not only can Marines+Marauders beat the Tier 1 & 1.5 units from Zerg and Toss, but this combo stays incredibly potent if the enemy wants to switch to air in tier 2. Marines are also incredibly good against Immortals too. And then you also have to consider what is backing the MM up in the later tiers which is basically the greatest collection of ranged & AoE units in the game. No other race has as many units that have 9+ range and no other race has as many units that deal splash damage. And this is on top of the cheapest and most effective anti-air unit in the game (which can reach a critical mass against many ground units & gets backed up by medivacs). So what you're seeing isn't a power shift from Terran being strong in Tier one, then getting weaker at tier 2, and then being balanced in tier 3. Instead you're seeing the Terran get an advantage early on and then watching it grow as any particular game proceeds.
Of course roaches get gibbed by immortals and an observer even with burrow, but marauders still die to banshees even if they have stim. What's your point?
I'm saying that roaches with burrow and burrow-move will start to beat other T1 units when they have T2 upgrades. Have you ever tried to fight a large number of roaches in T1 by just having your MM ball stand there whiel the roaches get in close and all pound away at your units? I don't know about you, but I try and kite them to stay alive. But when roaches get burrow move you can't kite them anymore. You need a raven, and how!
I'd also like to point out that giant balls of marines fall eaisly to FG, FG + banelings, burrowed banelings, banelings on creep with ling suppot, ultras with armor + any sort of support, hydras, burrowed roach ambush, broodlords, mass zealots with charge and a few sentries for forcefield, collossi, stoooorrrrrmmmmm.
MM is incredibly vulnerable to T3 even with support. If your MM army dies in 10 seconds your support is pooched.
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On August 28 2010 03:08 NihiloZero wrote:Show nested quote +On August 27 2010 23:40 Slayer91 wrote:Lings just don't get that good in bigger numbers because only so many can attack. Consequently... the Zerg are ABSOLUTELY forced into a major tech switch (particularly if dealing with air) while the Terran players can essentially stick with producing mass Barracks units throughout the game while backing them up with powerful upgrades (and later tier units only if they so desire). It's not a question of... some units only being a soft counter and prudently choosing to switch if you want, it's a matter of Zerg having no mobile tier 1 or 1.5 anti-air units (much less tier 1 & 1.5 anti-air units that reach critical mass). Sure... you can get some queens to protect your hatcheries, but being so incredibly slow they don't do well out in the field (even with creep) -- and that's important since most air units have a high degree of mobility. It should also be noted that Zerg get no anti-air at tier 3 either.
Hydras are amazing at anti air and mutas are the best air there is. How much anti air do you need?!?! Air is crazy fragile and the only fast air units are muta/pheonix, of which the pheonix has to rely on energy to deal damage.
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20 marines is also the point at which an attack move marine blob beats an attack moved zergling blob of equal cost (no upgrade or micro)
Imo, its still a good idea to make roaches early on though
If he techs too hard, goes for reapers, or hellions, banshees, and so on, and doesnt see it coming, then you can win or cripple him.
And if he does go for bio, he cant move out until he has a critical amount, which means a 20-30 food bio army with stim usually. And while the roaches will not be awesome against that, they still keep you safe for the early game, and allow you to drone hard at your expo while he masses up his bio army and gets stim.
Roaches just force him to go quite heavy bio, and then since he is going bio, he also has to wait quite a bit before pushing out. So they buy you a ton of time. And thats the purpose of early units really, buying you a lot of time to safely saturate your expo.
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I think with upgrades, creep, or a good flank, the roaches would perform better. Roaches naturally 3-shot marines, even if they get +1 armor. With speed upgrade and good attack-move micro,the roaches could be much more useful in large numbers. And don't forget that getting +1 armor on the roaches increases their effective HP by about 20% vs Marines.
Don't get me wrong, Banelings are clearly the better hard counter to Marines. But Roaches are also effective deterrents to Reaper and Hellion harass, as well as beating Tanks in small numbers, so they deserve a shoutout.
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On August 27 2010 23:23 ubershmekel wrote:I'm just a 500 point diamond so don't take me too seriously. I tried the FRR (fast roach rush) a bit and noticed that vs mass marines it's hard to roach. So I wanted to test things out a bit. This table shows some amounts of roaches (no speed roaches were tested) vs marines and how many survive the fight. Every line denotes an average of 3 runs in the unit tester. All units in the test were pretty much attack-moved. I tried some micro and it can improve results either way (stimming only back marines, shoot-scooting roaches) but not so much. Concerning the early game point where it evens out at 9/10 roaches vs 16 marines with CS - I think marines are more cost effective. 800 minerals and 16 food vs 750 minerals, 250 gas and 20 food. So if you want to actually win the battle, you have to have banelings. Problem is until you have speed roaches, banelings don't complement roaches at all because stimmed marines can kite roaches and banelings easily. Speedlings on the other hand can still get hits on marines that are running away from banelings. So I think early on vs marines going a baneling, speedling combo is preferable to anything concerning roaches. What do you guys think?
It doesn't matter what league you are in if you post intelligent accurate results in a well worded post. Kudos to you and thanks for doing the research.
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I definitely agree with your main point, that "early on vs marines going a baneling, speedling combo is preferable to anything concerning roaches." However, the point of the FRR you mentioned is not to mass roaches and attack IMO. You only make a few roaches and then mass speedling, and roaches are good against the number of marines they will have at that time. I feel this is better because the opponent might transition to marauder to deal with roaches, and you already switched to speedling, but if the opponent stays mass marine, you can easily shift to baneling, and still have a decent sized roach/speedling force.
To get a good feel of this style, watch some of Sen's stream, I feel he does a very good job at his early unit compositions and early unit micro/tactics.
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EPT
