|
I did some more testing with a thor: Attack moved the following combinations of units into a single thor.
Zerg:
12 lings: Lose, thor at about 20 hp:
12 speedlings: Win, 2-3 alive.
12 cracklings: Win, 5 alive.
3 roaches: Loses
3 hydras: Loses
4 roaches: Loses
4 burrowed uprooted roaches: Loses
2 hydra, 2 roach: Loses
0/0 ultralisk: Loses, barely.
3/3 ultralisk: Wins, with 70 hp.
3/3 ultralisk vs Thor with 250mm: Loses, thor at about 20 hp.
3 muta: Loses
4 muta: Wins with 1 muta alive at 1 hp
1 broodlord: Wins easily.
Terran:
6 marines: Loses badly.
6 stimmed marines: Loses badly.
3 marauders: Loses, thor at about 50 hp
3 stimmed marauders: Loses, thor at about 50 hp
2 tanks: Loses, thor at about 50 hp
2 sieged tanks: Loses, thor at about 50 hp
2 0/0 banshees: Loses
2 3/3 banshees: Tied
1 battlecruiser: Dominates with very little damage taken, even without Yamato.
1 planetary fortress: Loses ~1000 hp and burns the rest of the way.
Protoss:
3 zealots: Loses
4 zealots: Loses
3 DTs: Wins with 2 alive if scan detection is used
3 stalkers: Loses
1 0/0 immortal: Loses
1 3/3 immortal: Wins
1 colossus: Loses
1 archon: Loses
1 uncharged void ray: Wins, with about half its life remaining
1 charged void ray: Wins without HP damage
1 carrier: Wins without HP damage
What surprised me is that an immortal loses to a thor.
|
fucking kidding me? 12 zerglings lose to a thor?
That is the most retarded thing I have ever heard. No single unit should be able to kill 12 zerglings.
|
ha ha you think that is bad lets test what 1 thor with 10 scvs repairing it will kill 
|
On September 01 2010 15:43 kNyTTyM wrote:
fucking kidding me? 12 zerglings lose to a thor?
That is the most retarded thing I have ever heard. No single unit should be able to kill 12 zerglings.
To be fair, they only lose when they don't have speed.
The problem, it looked like, was that all 12 lings can't hit the thor. And multiplying quantities only favors the thor.
The next thing to test is 1 colossus vs 12 lings.
|
On September 01 2010 21:40 Xizorz wrote:Show nested quote +On September 01 2010 15:43 kNyTTyM wrote:
fucking kidding me? 12 zerglings lose to a thor?
That is the most retarded thing I have ever heard. No single unit should be able to kill 12 zerglings. To be fair, they only lose when they don't have speed. The problem, it looked like, was that all 12 lings can't hit the thor. And multiplying quantities only favors the thor. The next thing to test is 1 colossus vs 12 lings.
those test are useless
About roach - give back fuckn 2 armor and nerf damage somehow, they are supposed to be fuckn tanks, but cant handle even damn marines...
|
Its important to not forget about roach burrowing and burrow regeneration. You can get burrow on your roaches long before the terran player gets a raven and its likely he will only have 1 scan to spare at any given moment (if that). With burrow regen of weaker roaches, combined with popping out of burrow to get maximum damage, I think we would be seeing different results.
Only Terran can 1A, remember?
|
terran have scan, he doesnt need rave to kill burrowed roaches, remember?
|
This was an interesting post and it is even linked from the wiki Roach page, but, given the increase of range of roaches, a new test should be done to reflect their new effectiveness.
|
On September 01 2010 15:43 kNyTTyM wrote:
fucking kidding me? 12 zerglings lose to a thor?
That is the most retarded thing I have ever heard. No single unit should be able to kill 12 zerglings.
Keep in mind 12 Zerglings are only 300 minerals compared to 300/200 for a Thor along with tech tree requirements.
An important note I'd like to add is that a Thor heavily benefits from getting +2 upgrades against Zerg, upping the ground attack from 30 to 36 and the air attack from 12x4 (48) to 16x4 (64).
Once upgraded, it can one-shot a Zergling with 0 or +1 armor using just one attack on its weapon, allowing it to kill two Zerglings per attack.
Against Mutas with 0 armor it will also require only two air volleys to kill them.
|
Let's see some re-testing with path 1.1.2
Only request I have is that if you're going to include stim and combat shield for marines, do a test run where you do speed roaches vs stim and combat shield marines. Similar gas investment for upgrades and all.
|
hmmm, i´m really feeling that marines are just a bit too usefull right now. i mean, if you compare them to bw, they got buffed like hell.
|
I think roaches are indeed more useful against rines now with the 4 roach range, particularly with speedlings. I've been cutting back on mutas (only 8 at a time for contain/harass), and getting a ton more roach/bling/ling and using this army composition. Mutas help take away some of the thor DPS, then you set your speedling surround, aim blings at rines, and then just micro roaches a bit.
Roaches do a ton of damage, just in waves of it so during the cool down you should always move roaches. Speed roaches on creep are particularly effective at chasing because every attack cycle they just do a ton of damage.
|
Anyone tested this out again post patch? I'm thinking if you move your roaches right, they extra range will make a great big deal of difference.
|
Hey
Verry interesting numbers
Am a bit suprised that marines at one point beat roaches and am not sure how you tested this
where the 16 roaches in a straight line vs 32 marines or where they more grouped
if they where in a strait line the outcome should be equal to the 1 roach vs 2 marines
only when they in a ball or 2 lines behind eachoter a difference occurs when a-moving
well 2 differences basicly and am not sure if thoose have been taken into account
the first difference is that the ai stops moving forward as soon as the target is in range
what this means is that when 2 lines of 8 roaches each attack 2 lines of 16 marines the marines stop aproaching all at range 5 with the first line shooting and the second line unable to shoot
the first line of roaches will move forward to range for enabling them to shoot and also enabling the second line of marines to shoot at the point all units sotp moving and the second line of roaches is not doing damage at all till one roach infron dies and he can move forward
well maybe its a bit less extreme since the 32 marines will maybe be able to stand in 2 line but point is that at a few points during the attack not all roaches might be firering while all marines are
(solution to this is to move the roaches forward to point blank range and then just hold command wich works also pretty good in actual games if you have troubble getting a good concave and find half your units not shooting)
second maybe less important difference is that due to the way all marines damage the first line of roaches a sort of auto focus fire takes place where the marines even if fireing random first focusfire down the first line where the roaches keep doing random damage and focusfire vs non focusfire can give quiete a diference in outcome
Well not sure if this was taken into account and maybe the effects are small but it was just something that was wondering about
|
I think the way the units attack also affects the mass numbers game.
for example, if you have 7 roaches all shoot a marine at the same time, its as if some of those roaches "wasted" their shot, where as if all those marines "wasted" their shot, its not as bad, since marines shoot faster/hurt less. With this, you could say that focus firing is actually worse than having each roach attack a separate marine (obviously the best is to have 3 roaches focusing 1 marine at a time).
|
Burrowing and then popping up under a mass marine army would be very effective, they wouldn't be prepared. But as your graph says, roaches aren't a viable unit for a head on bioball army, especially if they get marauders. Better off with the banelings~
|
This is amazing. This is one combo I hadn't yet run through a combat sim as I just figured the roaches would win hands down. I have a new tweak to my anti-zerg play in mind. 
|
On August 28 2010 03:33 sikyon wrote:
Hydras are amazing at anti air and mutas are the best air there is. How much anti air do you need?!?! Air is crazy fragile and the only fast air units are muta/pheonix, of which the pheonix has to rely on energy to deal damage.
You missed the point entirely. Both Hydras and Mutas are Tier 2, meaning that when dealing with air you have to tech switch from whatever you were building before to one of those two fairly slow-tech options. Only Mutas are really mobile of the two.
|
I would like to see the Roach/Marine match-up done again, after the 1.1.2. Also, I think there was a flaw in the original test: marines received shields and stim, which made a big difference, but roaches did not get any upgrades of their own. I think that +1 armor would likely swing the battle dramatically in the roaches favor.
|
On October 20 2010 20:36 Thezzy wrote:
An important note I'd like to add is that a Thor heavily benefits from getting +2 upgrades against Zerg, upping the ground attack from 30 to 36 and the air attack from 12x4 (48) to 16x4 (64).
Once upgraded, it can one-shot a Zergling with 0 or +1 armor using just one attack on its weapon, allowing it to kill two Zerglings per attack.
This is wrong.
Test it and you will see that the 2nd shot is completely wasted on NOTHING if the Thor kills the ling on the first shot.
That being said, lings dying 1/2 a second earlier still means less damage taken and still makes the thor live significantly longer.
+2 weapons vs +0 or +1 carapace is still a VERY good deal.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
