EPT[D] Roaches vs Marines - Page 2
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Moa
United States790 Posts
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Xizorz
93 Posts
On August 27 2010 23:47 sikyon wrote: T2 is where roaches really shine. move speed is critical, burrow micro is underused by actually very potent, and burrow-move has won me alot of games because if you can get all your roaches up into a fight they are very cost effective for their health and damage (do you remember all those comparisons of just roach health, dps, and cost vs other units in the game that were not accurate because roaches have low range and are slow? those comparisons are reasonable if your roaches erupt directly under your enemy's army). The way I see it though, if you can successfully use burrow move roaches, you might as well just burrow your sling/bling army in his path and unburrow when he walks over it. If the Terran is going to fall for burrow, well, you already won the game. | ||
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Numy
South Africa35471 Posts
On August 28 2010 03:33 sikyon wrote: Hydras are amazing at anti air and mutas are the best air there is. How much anti air do you need?!?! Air is crazy fragile and the only fast air units are muta/pheonix, of which the pheonix has to rely on energy to deal damage. He clearly states no mobile AA before T2. Both Hydra and muta are after T2. So your point is invalid. | ||
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Shiladie
Canada1631 Posts
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Carnivorous Sheep
Baa?21244 Posts
And yeah, personally I feel Roaches aren't too great versus Bio. roaches used to do pretty well against Marines with the 2 Armor, but with 1 Armor, I felt a drastic drop in usefulness vs. Marines. Marauders/Medivacs just exacerbate the problem. | ||
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TSL-Lore
United States412 Posts
Sure, roaches don't seem to work against marines on paper. But really, a combination of zerglings are Roaches might do much better because the roaches occupy a different attack space than the zerglings do. If you had pure zergling, they would crowd each other and not be very effective, and if you had pure roaches, they would crowd each other too. But if u had a combination of the two, the zerglings can fill that melee attack space while the roaches fill that ranged attack space, and then they fight much more effectively. Remember to consider this before you make any sweeping determinations like "Oh, it has been proven, i will never use roaches now!" | ||
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EnderCN
United States499 Posts
(I did not have the time to look at the proper cost of roach vs zergling so just pretend I used the proper value, I realize 20 zerglings dont' cost exactly the same as 10 roaches~, you get the idea though.) | ||
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Ciddass
Germany149 Posts
as soons as the dps marine ball has a "critical mass" nothing stands a chance apart from banelings. and roaches don`t do dmg at all they`re supposed to tank the dmg, their attack speed is super slow.so they have 145hp that sounds great on paper and it`s no problem to get alot of roaches as Z, they`re cheap. but compared to that they die to fast to everything in my opinion. 16roaches vs 32marines is 2320hp vs 1440hp. a huge difference but still the roaches die and 10 marines survive. that affirms that the T bio army performs well against everything Z has on ground. and marines are dps monsters. hydras did quite well before the attack speed nerf and tank buff especially with some roaches even vs pure bio. they were a decent allrounder like the marine marauder mix for T. tank nerf will help hydras to fill their role as the only real dps unit for Z. | ||
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Voyager I
United States260 Posts
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EnderCN
United States499 Posts
roaches don`t do dmg at all they`re supposed to tank the dmg Roaches COST/DPS is very strong, they are a good damage dealing unit, only a few units in the game have a better COST/DPS against something they don't get a damage bonus against than Roaches. All of the base T1 units do and hydralisks do that is about it.. The important part is the zerglings rarely can all attack even with a surround, the roaches give you ranged DPS added to the surround. I think the real problem with roaches is just how late/expensive the upgrades are. If they made the speed upgrade a cheap T1 upgrade like concussive shell it would do so much to help the unit. | ||
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Carnivorous Sheep
Baa?21244 Posts
On August 31 2010 09:01 EnderCN wrote: Roaches COST/DPS is very strong, they are a good damage dealing unit, only a few units in the game have a better COST/DPS against something they don't get a damage bonus against than Roaches. All of the base T1 units do and hydralisks do that is about it.. The important part is the zerglings rarely can all attack even with a surround, the roaches give you ranged DPS added to the surround. I think the real problem with roaches is just how late/expensive the upgrades are. If they made the speed upgrade a cheap T1 upgrade like concussive shell it would do so much to help the unit. Roach is OK DPS if they can get into range, and that's a huge if. Especially versus bio, the tiny range means it's really hard to get all of your roaches within firing range, compounded by the fact that your frontline of Roaches will be slowed by Marauders. Burrow move is really really nice if they have nod etection and you can burrow all your roaches right in the middle of their army. Their actual DPS drastically increases. But alas, that can't be done in most scenarios. | ||
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EnderCN
United States499 Posts
your frontline of Roaches will be slowed by Marauders. Well if their marauders are shooting your roaches and ignoring your zerglings it is a win for you. Zerglings have the highest cost/dps in the game by a large margin, you cannot afford to ignore them when they are in range and getting a surround, you have to focus them first. But yeah the reality of gameplay is the Terran will just stim and kite the zerglings and then kill the roaches and that is because stim is grossly overpowered and is the largest imbalance in the game imo. | ||
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cHaNg-sTa
United States1058 Posts
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hadoken5
Canada519 Posts
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sikyon
Canada1045 Posts
On August 31 2010 07:28 Xizorz wrote: The way I see it though, if you can successfully use burrow move roaches, you might as well just burrow your sling/bling army in his path and unburrow when he walks over it. If the Terran is going to fall for burrow, well, you already won the game. Alot of terran players will scan ahead of the main push around your choke to make sure there are no burrow shennanigans going on. That forces you to burrow in the middle of the map which can be... less than optimal if he's smart and takes a slightly irregular route. Burrow roaches also let you go on the offensive (you can sneak them through supply depots that are down! Frankly just seeing a large number of roaches forces me to get a turrent asap for my base and a raven. You can't really scout to see if he has burrow move, only that he has alot of roaches and a lair and that you should be prepared. | ||
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Ciddass
Germany149 Posts
wrong as we can see here | ||
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Xizorz
93 Posts
On August 31 2010 09:55 sikyon wrote: Alot of terran players will scan ahead of the main push around your choke to make sure there are no burrow shennanigans going on. That forces you to burrow in the middle of the map which can be... less than optimal if he's smart and takes a slightly irregular route. Burrow roaches also let you go on the offensive (you can sneak them through supply depots that are down! Frankly just seeing a large number of roaches forces me to get a turrent asap for my base and a raven. You can't really scout to see if he has burrow move, only that he has alot of roaches and a lair and that you should be prepared. Well, right. I just dont see how he is going to blindly scan for burrowed lings, but not scan for moving roaches. | ||
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Twaxter
Canada190 Posts
I almost never go roach in ZvT, unless I'm trying to stop helion harass, or if the guys going mass reaper, which is almost every game lol. I'm 600ish diamond, so don't take me seriously too  .I have yet to try the 5RR, but I hate doing builds like these. (baneling busts, 1 base muta e.t.c.) | ||
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Mindspider
91 Posts
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nihoh
Australia978 Posts
This is why damage charts aren't practical... With Marine stim you can forward kite. Interesting findings anyway. | ||
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