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I'm just a 500 point diamond so don't take me too seriously. I tried the FRR (fast roach rush) a bit and noticed that vs mass marines it's hard to roach. So I wanted to test things out a bit.
This table shows some amounts of roaches (no speed roaches were tested) vs marines and how many survive the fight.
![[image loading]](http://imgur.com/3RJ7b.png)
Every line denotes an average of 3 runs in the unit tester. All units in the test were pretty much attack-moved. I tried some micro and it can improve results either way (stimming only back marines, shoot-scooting roaches) but not so much.
Concerning the early game point where it evens out at 9/10 roaches vs 16 marines with CS - I think marines are more cost effective. 800 minerals and 16 food vs 750 minerals, 250 gas and 20 food. So if you want to actually win the battle, you have to have banelings. Problem is until you have speed roaches, banelings don't complement roaches at all because stimmed marines can kite roaches and banelings easily. Speedlings on the other hand can still get hits on marines that are running away from banelings. So I think early on vs marines going a baneling, speedling combo is preferable to anything concerning roaches.
What do you guys think?
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Well really micro makes a big difference, but T1 I'd give the micro advantage to marines because of their ability to kite with stim and longer range. In my experience I only ever want roaches ZvT as a tier 2 unit when speed is available. Otherwise I just feel like they're a drain on my gas and slows down my teching to useful units.
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I've a hard time believing that once you start truely abusing the different range, the different attack speed and the different upgrades (stim against burrow) of both units, the numbers wouldn't change dramatically.
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I'm just a 500 point diamond so don't take me too seriously.
Why not? You provide good, informative data. There's no reason not to take your seriously, unless your data is somehow wrong. Personally, I don't find roaches effective against marines either, especially once stim packs, combat shields, and medivacs come in to play.
So I think early on vs marines going a baneling, speedling combo is preferable to anything concerning roaches.
If he's doing an early marine attack, yes. In fact, if it's before stim, you can probably rely on just a few banelings to defend a mass marine attack.
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That's great data. Like you said one unit more made a huge difference.
Thank you
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You just put in graph form what we already knew: roaches suck vs mass bio. =(
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Which means interestingly it looks like banelings are the only counter to marines that currently exists. Broodlords are arguable if he has tanks and I don't see a big argument for ultras which cost so much gas there is no comparison.
Ling/baneling I suppose is more accurate, assuming you're on creep and have baneling speed.
Roach with ling/baneling is starting to make less sense. Bad vs marines and bad vs marauders. I do think they are useful as back up fire though. Lings just don't get that good in bigger numbers because only so many can attack. (Perhaps go hydras with ling/baneling against pure bio?If you intend to to retreat when your lingbaneling dies unless he's almost dead anyway, having a high hp roach isn't useful. I always thought they were to soak tank fire though, so I'm not sure)
I can see why dimaga is skipping roaches and hydras completely. Looks like roaches counter only hellions and reapers and hydras kill marauders just about. Funny how the mighty have fallen. Roach/hydra used to be standard ZvT. Pretty sure roaches were designed to beat zealots, lings and marines btw. (hint: They destroyed them when they had 2 armour, they only work against lings and zealots in large numbers or with micro against zealots)
Queen/spinecrawler/ling-->muta/ling/baneling-->infestors-->T3 will probably be normal ZvT.
Queen/spinecrawler/ling-->muta/ling-->ultra might become normal ZvP, though roaches still work here because they'er good vs zealot/sentry and stalkers aren't that good straight up units in general.
Man my brain is going overdrive @_@
Burrow roaches make them way more effective though. It just seems like a gimmick when top players start to invest in a raven or an obs just to shut down burrow banelings or infestors.
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T2 is where roaches really shine. move speed is critical, burrow micro is underused by actually very potent, and burrow-move has won me alot of games because if you can get all your roaches up into a fight they are very cost effective for their health and damage (do you remember all those comparisons of just roach health, dps, and cost vs other units in the game that were not accurate because roaches have low range and are slow? those comparisons are reasonable if your roaches erupt directly under your enemy's army).
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I did a 5RR into a group of 5 or 6 marines behind the wall and ultimately pulled back after I lost a couple of my roaches and the wall had yet to fall (it was close but not there). So I agree that roaches typically do not feel very great against marines. The 5RR really only works when they don't start massing marines from the get-go (along with a couple of other more obvious builds).
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On August 27 2010 23:49 fenster wrote:
I did a 5RR into a group of 5 or 6 marines behind the wall and ultimately pulled back after I lost a couple of my roaches and the wall had yet to fall (it was close but not there). So I agree that roaches typically do not feel very great against marines. The 5RR really only works when they don't start massing marines from the get-go (along with a couple of other more obvious builds).
Woops, I should have written 5RR and not FRR. And I think I'll be hurrying to T2 instead of roaching vs terran.
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Thanks a lot for your data, this is some awesome information! And don't degrade yourself because of your rank, pretty much everyone is new to this game, and your rank doesn't effect your ability to run a test like this  .
As for using roaches against Terran, I find my biggest problem is that due to how fast I need to get the roaches out, I usually end up getting the Roach Warren scouted. Once that happens, terran just throws a bunker at his choke, and the investment of my 5 roaches is nonconstructive against the bunker. The Terran then either gets a tank and stim or marauders and marines, at which point my army fairs poorly.
I agree with Slayer91, zerglings and banelings are the way to go in the matchup as of now.
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ye, i tested it also, unupgraded marines start to pwn roaches from 20-ish count and with stim and shields they are god damn own those poor insects, the reasons are obviously range, sick damage, also they are small, so the can attack all at once and they can not overkill, since they got no projectile, so the only thing roaches can kill is zealot, thanks, blizz. Also im surprised there is yet no terran, who posted some crap about " you can spawn 7 roaches at once" and so on..
ps Also if marines focus fire roaches 1 by 1 they kill even with less casualties, since roaches cant FF, they will overkill and lose damage
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On August 27 2010 23:47 sikyon wrote:
T2 is where roaches really shine.
Roaches with burrow shine in tier 2 when observers and Immortals come out for Protoss? Interesting. And don't forget... if roaches are beaten by any tier one units it's not as if those units magically disappear once the Tier 2 units take to the field. That latter point is something that I just don't think a lot of people get... and it becomes even more important when Tier 1 units are able to reach a powerful critical mass, get very good upgrades, and can then get paired with something like a medivac to make them even more powerful.
So the fact that Terran has access to the earliest and least expensive ranged units that can hit air becomes a noticeable advantage for the Terran. Not only can Marines+Marauders beat the Tier 1 & 1.5 units from Zerg and Toss, but this combo stays incredibly potent if the enemy wants to switch to air in tier 2. Marines are also incredibly good against Immortals too.
And then you also have to consider what is backing the MM up in the later tiers which is basically the greatest collection of ranged & AoE units in the game. No other race has as many units that have 9+ range and no other race has as many units that deal splash damage. And this is on top of the cheapest and most effective anti-air unit in the game (which can reach a critical mass against many ground units & gets backed up by medivacs).
So what you're seeing isn't a power shift from Terran being strong in Tier one, then getting weaker at tier 2, and then being balanced in tier 3. Instead you're seeing the Terran get an advantage early on and then watching it grow as any particular game proceeds.
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On August 27 2010 23:40 Slayer91 wrote:Lings just don't get that good in bigger numbers because only so many can attack.
Consequently... the Zerg are ABSOLUTELY forced into a major tech switch (particularly if dealing with air) while the Terran players can essentially stick with producing mass Barracks units throughout the game while backing them up with powerful upgrades (and later tier units only if they so desire). It's not a question of... some units only being a soft counter and prudently choosing to switch if you want, it's a matter of Zerg having no mobile tier 1 or 1.5 anti-air units (much less tier 1 & 1.5 anti-air units that reach critical mass). Sure... you can get some queens to protect your hatcheries, but being so incredibly slow they don't do well out in the field (even with creep) -- and that's important since most air units have a high degree of mobility. It should also be noted that Zerg get no anti-air at tier 3 either.
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On August 28 2010 02:54 NihiloZero wrote:Roaches with burrow shine in tier 2 when observers and Immortals come out for Protoss? Interesting. And don't forget... if roaches are beaten by any tier one units it's not as if those units magically disappear once the Tier 2 units take to the field. That latter point is something that I just don't think a lot of people get... and it becomes even more important when Tier 1 units are able to reach a powerful critical mass, get very good upgrades, and can then get paired with something like a medivac to make them even more powerful. So the fact that Terran has access to the earliest and least expensive ranged units that can hit air becomes a noticeable advantage for the Terran. Not only can Marines+Marauders beat the Tier 1 & 1.5 units from Zerg and Toss, but this combo stays incredibly potent if the enemy wants to switch to air in tier 2. Marines are also incredibly good against Immortals too. And then you also have to consider what is backing the MM up in the later tiers which is basically the greatest collection of ranged & AoE units in the game. No other race has as many units that have 9+ range and no other race has as many units that deal splash damage. And this is on top of the cheapest and most effective anti-air unit in the game (which can reach a critical mass against many ground units & gets backed up by medivacs). So what you're seeing isn't a power shift from Terran being strong in Tier one, then getting weaker at tier 2, and then being balanced in tier 3. Instead you're seeing the Terran get an advantage early on and then watching it grow as any particular game proceeds.
Of course roaches get gibbed by immortals and an observer even with burrow, but marauders still die to banshees even if they have stim. What's your point?
I'm saying that roaches with burrow and burrow-move will start to beat other T1 units when they have T2 upgrades. Have you ever tried to fight a large number of roaches in T1 by just having your MM ball stand there whiel the roaches get in close and all pound away at your units? I don't know about you, but I try and kite them to stay alive. But when roaches get burrow move you can't kite them anymore. You need a raven, and how!
I'd also like to point out that giant balls of marines fall eaisly to FG, FG + banelings, burrowed banelings, banelings on creep with ling suppot, ultras with armor + any sort of support, hydras, burrowed roach ambush, broodlords, mass zealots with charge and a few sentries for forcefield, collossi, stoooorrrrrmmmmm.
MM is incredibly vulnerable to T3 even with support. If your MM army dies in 10 seconds your support is pooched.
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On August 28 2010 03:08 NihiloZero wrote:Show nested quote +On August 27 2010 23:40 Slayer91 wrote:Lings just don't get that good in bigger numbers because only so many can attack. Consequently... the Zerg are ABSOLUTELY forced into a major tech switch (particularly if dealing with air) while the Terran players can essentially stick with producing mass Barracks units throughout the game while backing them up with powerful upgrades (and later tier units only if they so desire). It's not a question of... some units only being a soft counter and prudently choosing to switch if you want, it's a matter of Zerg having no mobile tier 1 or 1.5 anti-air units (much less tier 1 & 1.5 anti-air units that reach critical mass). Sure... you can get some queens to protect your hatcheries, but being so incredibly slow they don't do well out in the field (even with creep) -- and that's important since most air units have a high degree of mobility. It should also be noted that Zerg get no anti-air at tier 3 either.
Hydras are amazing at anti air and mutas are the best air there is. How much anti air do you need?!?! Air is crazy fragile and the only fast air units are muta/pheonix, of which the pheonix has to rely on energy to deal damage.
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20 marines is also the point at which an attack move marine blob beats an attack moved zergling blob of equal cost (no upgrade or micro)
Imo, its still a good idea to make roaches early on though
If he techs too hard, goes for reapers, or hellions, banshees, and so on, and doesnt see it coming, then you can win or cripple him.
And if he does go for bio, he cant move out until he has a critical amount, which means a 20-30 food bio army with stim usually. And while the roaches will not be awesome against that, they still keep you safe for the early game, and allow you to drone hard at your expo while he masses up his bio army and gets stim.
Roaches just force him to go quite heavy bio, and then since he is going bio, he also has to wait quite a bit before pushing out. So they buy you a ton of time. And thats the purpose of early units really, buying you a lot of time to safely saturate your expo.
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I think with upgrades, creep, or a good flank, the roaches would perform better. Roaches naturally 3-shot marines, even if they get +1 armor. With speed upgrade and good attack-move micro,the roaches could be much more useful in large numbers. And don't forget that getting +1 armor on the roaches increases their effective HP by about 20% vs Marines.
Don't get me wrong, Banelings are clearly the better hard counter to Marines. But Roaches are also effective deterrents to Reaper and Hellion harass, as well as beating Tanks in small numbers, so they deserve a shoutout.
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On August 27 2010 23:23 ubershmekel wrote:I'm just a 500 point diamond so don't take me too seriously. I tried the FRR (fast roach rush) a bit and noticed that vs mass marines it's hard to roach. So I wanted to test things out a bit. This table shows some amounts of roaches (no speed roaches were tested) vs marines and how many survive the fight. Every line denotes an average of 3 runs in the unit tester. All units in the test were pretty much attack-moved. I tried some micro and it can improve results either way (stimming only back marines, shoot-scooting roaches) but not so much. Concerning the early game point where it evens out at 9/10 roaches vs 16 marines with CS - I think marines are more cost effective. 800 minerals and 16 food vs 750 minerals, 250 gas and 20 food. So if you want to actually win the battle, you have to have banelings. Problem is until you have speed roaches, banelings don't complement roaches at all because stimmed marines can kite roaches and banelings easily. Speedlings on the other hand can still get hits on marines that are running away from banelings. So I think early on vs marines going a baneling, speedling combo is preferable to anything concerning roaches. What do you guys think?
It doesn't matter what league you are in if you post intelligent accurate results in a well worded post. Kudos to you and thanks for doing the research.
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I definitely agree with your main point, that "early on vs marines going a baneling, speedling combo is preferable to anything concerning roaches." However, the point of the FRR you mentioned is not to mass roaches and attack IMO. You only make a few roaches and then mass speedling, and roaches are good against the number of marines they will have at that time. I feel this is better because the opponent might transition to marauder to deal with roaches, and you already switched to speedling, but if the opponent stays mass marine, you can easily shift to baneling, and still have a decent sized roach/speedling force.
To get a good feel of this style, watch some of Sen's stream, I feel he does a very good job at his early unit compositions and early unit micro/tactics.
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One question, did you just A move because roaches have very low range and moving them all into range of the marines before attacking would probably alter the results.
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On August 27 2010 23:47 sikyon wrote:
T2 is where roaches really shine. move speed is critical, burrow micro is underused by actually very potent, and burrow-move has won me alot of games because if you can get all your roaches up into a fight they are very cost effective for their health and damage (do you remember all those comparisons of just roach health, dps, and cost vs other units in the game that were not accurate because roaches have low range and are slow? those comparisons are reasonable if your roaches erupt directly under your enemy's army).
The way I see it though, if you can successfully use burrow move roaches, you might as well just burrow your sling/bling army in his path and unburrow when he walks over it.
If the Terran is going to fall for burrow, well, you already won the game.
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On August 28 2010 03:33 sikyon wrote:Show nested quote +On August 28 2010 03:08 NihiloZero wrote:On August 27 2010 23:40 Slayer91 wrote:Lings just don't get that good in bigger numbers because only so many can attack. Consequently... the Zerg are ABSOLUTELY forced into a major tech switch (particularly if dealing with air) while the Terran players can essentially stick with producing mass Barracks units throughout the game while backing them up with powerful upgrades (and later tier units only if they so desire). It's not a question of... some units only being a soft counter and prudently choosing to switch if you want, it's a matter of Zerg having no mobile tier 1 or 1.5 anti-air units (much less tier 1 & 1.5 anti-air units that reach critical mass). Sure... you can get some queens to protect your hatcheries, but being so incredibly slow they don't do well out in the field (even with creep) -- and that's important since most air units have a high degree of mobility. It should also be noted that Zerg get no anti-air at tier 3 either. Hydras are amazing at anti air and mutas are the best air there is. How much anti air do you need?!?! Air is crazy fragile and the only fast air units are muta/pheonix, of which the pheonix has to rely on energy to deal damage.
He clearly states no mobile AA before T2. Both Hydra and muta are after T2. So your point is invalid.
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Good post, I've actually wondered whether I should go roach or blingling for those mass marine rushes, so far I've been going roach, because when they were 1 food and 2 armour, they countered marines very well, but now, not so much...
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Baa?21242 Posts
Were these done at 0/0? Have you tried it with different upgrades?
And yeah, personally I feel Roaches aren't too great versus Bio. roaches used to do pretty well against Marines with the 2 Armor, but with 1 Armor, I felt a drastic drop in usefulness vs. Marines. Marauders/Medivacs just exacerbate the problem.
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An extremely important thing about the zerg army that should always be taken into consideration is "attack space." Basically, the amount of space you have for your units to attack something. When you look at numbers like these, you're basically using a pure roach army vs a pure marine army. Due to the large unit size and the low range of the Roach, they don't fight very efficiently because they take time to find their attack space. Whereas, marines fight extremely efficiently due to their small size and their decent range.
Sure, roaches don't seem to work against marines on paper. But really, a combination of zerglings are Roaches might do much better because the roaches occupy a different attack space than the zerglings do. If you had pure zergling, they would crowd each other and not be very effective, and if you had pure roaches, they would crowd each other too. But if u had a combination of the two, the zerglings can fill that melee attack space while the roaches fill that ranged attack space, and then they fight much more effectively. Remember to consider this before you make any sweeping determinations like "Oh, it has been proven, i will never use roaches now!"
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Roaches are best used in combination with other units. A marine ball is going to attack the zerglings first most likely and the roaches will get a bunch of free attacks from range. 20 zerglings and 10 roaches should be expected to do better against a marine blob than just 40 zerglings(they can't all get in position) or 20 roaches.
(I did not have the time to look at the proper cost of roach vs zergling so just pretend I used the proper value, I realize 20 zerglings dont' cost exactly the same as 10 roaches~, you get the idea though.)
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nice data.
as soons as the dps marine ball has a "critical mass" nothing stands a chance apart from banelings.
and roaches don`t do dmg at all they`re supposed to tank the dmg, their attack speed is super slow.so they have 145hp that sounds great on paper and it`s no problem to get alot of roaches as Z, they`re cheap. but compared to that they die to fast to everything in my opinion.
16roaches vs 32marines is 2320hp vs 1440hp. a huge difference but still the roaches die and 10 marines survive.
that affirms that the T bio army performs well against everything Z has on ground.
and marines are dps monsters.
hydras did quite well before the attack speed nerf and tank buff especially with some roaches even vs pure bio. they were a decent allrounder like the marine marauder mix for T.
tank nerf will help hydras to fill their role as the only real dps unit for Z.
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I can't help wondering if Roaches would be a better 2 food unit if they had their old 2 armor as well.
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roaches don`t do dmg at all they`re supposed to tank the dmg
Roaches COST/DPS is very strong, they are a good damage dealing unit, only a few units in the game have a better COST/DPS against something they don't get a damage bonus against than Roaches. All of the base T1 units do and hydralisks do that is about it.. The important part is the zerglings rarely can all attack even with a surround, the roaches give you ranged DPS added to the surround.
I think the real problem with roaches is just how late/expensive the upgrades are. If they made the speed upgrade a cheap T1 upgrade like concussive shell it would do so much to help the unit.
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Baa?21242 Posts
On August 31 2010 09:01 EnderCN wrote:Roaches COST/DPS is very strong, they are a good damage dealing unit, only a few units in the game have a better COST/DPS against something they don't get a damage bonus against than Roaches. All of the base T1 units do and hydralisks do that is about it.. The important part is the zerglings rarely can all attack even with a surround, the roaches give you ranged DPS added to the surround. I think the real problem with roaches is just how late/expensive the upgrades are. If they made the speed upgrade a cheap T1 upgrade like concussive shell it would do so much to help the unit.
Roach is OK DPS if they can get into range, and that's a huge if. Especially versus bio, the tiny range means it's really hard to get all of your roaches within firing range, compounded by the fact that your frontline of Roaches will be slowed by Marauders.
Burrow move is really really nice if they have nod etection and you can burrow all your roaches right in the middle of their army. Their actual DPS drastically increases. But alas, that can't be done in most scenarios.
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your frontline of Roaches will be slowed by Marauders.
Well if their marauders are shooting your roaches and ignoring your zerglings it is a win for you. Zerglings have the highest cost/dps in the game by a large margin, you cannot afford to ignore them when they are in range and getting a surround, you have to focus them first.
But yeah the reality of gameplay is the Terran will just stim and kite the zerglings and then kill the roaches and that is because stim is grossly overpowered and is the largest imbalance in the game imo.
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Why anyone would ever use Roaches early game still baffles me (outside the very few exceptions). They just have too little range and easily kitable. It'd ridiculous how much marines outclass roaches, and they even hit air! They should at least get 2 armor back. I think 2 supply is fine since 1 supply will just make people mass them again.
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I'm finding that roaches are becoming more and more useless everyday. How does it even make sense that they suck against marines!!!
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On August 31 2010 07:28 Xizorz wrote:Show nested quote +On August 27 2010 23:47 sikyon wrote:
T2 is where roaches really shine. move speed is critical, burrow micro is underused by actually very potent, and burrow-move has won me alot of games because if you can get all your roaches up into a fight they are very cost effective for their health and damage (do you remember all those comparisons of just roach health, dps, and cost vs other units in the game that were not accurate because roaches have low range and are slow? those comparisons are reasonable if your roaches erupt directly under your enemy's army). The way I see it though, if you can successfully use burrow move roaches, you might as well just burrow your sling/bling army in his path and unburrow when he walks over it. If the Terran is going to fall for burrow, well, you already won the game.
Alot of terran players will scan ahead of the main push around your choke to make sure there are no burrow shennanigans going on. That forces you to burrow in the middle of the map which can be... less than optimal if he's smart and takes a slightly irregular route. Burrow roaches also let you go on the offensive (you can sneak them through supply depots that are down!
Frankly just seeing a large number of roaches forces me to get a turrent asap for my base and a raven. You can't really scout to see if he has burrow move, only that he has alot of roaches and a lair and that you should be prepared.
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On August 31 2010 09:55 sikyon wrote:Show nested quote +On August 31 2010 07:28 Xizorz wrote:On August 27 2010 23:47 sikyon wrote:
T2 is where roaches really shine. move speed is critical, burrow micro is underused by actually very potent, and burrow-move has won me alot of games because if you can get all your roaches up into a fight they are very cost effective for their health and damage (do you remember all those comparisons of just roach health, dps, and cost vs other units in the game that were not accurate because roaches have low range and are slow? those comparisons are reasonable if your roaches erupt directly under your enemy's army). The way I see it though, if you can successfully use burrow move roaches, you might as well just burrow your sling/bling army in his path and unburrow when he walks over it. If the Terran is going to fall for burrow, well, you already won the game. Alot of terran players will scan ahead of the main push around your choke to make sure there are no burrow shennanigans going on. That forces you to burrow in the middle of the map which can be... less than optimal if he's smart and takes a slightly irregular route. Burrow roaches also let you go on the offensive (you can sneak them through supply depots that are down! Frankly just seeing a large number of roaches forces me to get a turrent asap for my base and a raven. You can't really scout to see if he has burrow move, only that he has alot of roaches and a lair and that you should be prepared.
Well, right. I just dont see how he is going to blindly scan for burrowed lings, but not scan for moving roaches.
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Very interesting!
I almost never go roach in ZvT, unless I'm trying to stop helion harass, or if the guys going mass reaper, which is almost every game lol.
I'm 600ish diamond, so don't take me seriously too .
I have yet to try the 5RR, but I hate doing builds like these. (baneling busts, 1 base muta e.t.c.)
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This is good info. I'd like to see how upgrading the Roaches will change the outcomes of the matchup... remember, you are comparing marines with stim + shield against unupgraded roaches, so it's natural that the marines will appear to be superior. Give roaches +0/+1 or +1/+1, and then see how they fare against a ball of marines.
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"You're better off not stimming"
This is why damage charts aren't practical... With Marine stim you can forward kite. Interesting findings anyway.
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I did some more testing with a thor: Attack moved the following combinations of units into a single thor.
Zerg:
12 lings: Lose, thor at about 20 hp:
12 speedlings: Win, 2-3 alive.
12 cracklings: Win, 5 alive.
3 roaches: Loses
3 hydras: Loses
4 roaches: Loses
4 burrowed uprooted roaches: Loses
2 hydra, 2 roach: Loses
0/0 ultralisk: Loses, barely.
3/3 ultralisk: Wins, with 70 hp.
3/3 ultralisk vs Thor with 250mm: Loses, thor at about 20 hp.
3 muta: Loses
4 muta: Wins with 1 muta alive at 1 hp
1 broodlord: Wins easily.
Terran:
6 marines: Loses badly.
6 stimmed marines: Loses badly.
3 marauders: Loses, thor at about 50 hp
3 stimmed marauders: Loses, thor at about 50 hp
2 tanks: Loses, thor at about 50 hp
2 sieged tanks: Loses, thor at about 50 hp
2 0/0 banshees: Loses
2 3/3 banshees: Tied
1 battlecruiser: Dominates with very little damage taken, even without Yamato.
1 planetary fortress: Loses ~1000 hp and burns the rest of the way.
Protoss:
3 zealots: Loses
4 zealots: Loses
3 DTs: Wins with 2 alive if scan detection is used
3 stalkers: Loses
1 0/0 immortal: Loses
1 3/3 immortal: Wins
1 colossus: Loses
1 archon: Loses
1 uncharged void ray: Wins, with about half its life remaining
1 charged void ray: Wins without HP damage
1 carrier: Wins without HP damage
What surprised me is that an immortal loses to a thor.
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fucking kidding me? 12 zerglings lose to a thor?
That is the most retarded thing I have ever heard. No single unit should be able to kill 12 zerglings.
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ha ha you think that is bad lets test what 1 thor with 10 scvs repairing it will kill 
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On September 01 2010 15:43 kNyTTyM wrote:
fucking kidding me? 12 zerglings lose to a thor?
That is the most retarded thing I have ever heard. No single unit should be able to kill 12 zerglings.
To be fair, they only lose when they don't have speed.
The problem, it looked like, was that all 12 lings can't hit the thor. And multiplying quantities only favors the thor.
The next thing to test is 1 colossus vs 12 lings.
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On September 01 2010 21:40 Xizorz wrote:Show nested quote +On September 01 2010 15:43 kNyTTyM wrote:
fucking kidding me? 12 zerglings lose to a thor?
That is the most retarded thing I have ever heard. No single unit should be able to kill 12 zerglings. To be fair, they only lose when they don't have speed. The problem, it looked like, was that all 12 lings can't hit the thor. And multiplying quantities only favors the thor. The next thing to test is 1 colossus vs 12 lings.
those test are useless
About roach - give back fuckn 2 armor and nerf damage somehow, they are supposed to be fuckn tanks, but cant handle even damn marines...
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Its important to not forget about roach burrowing and burrow regeneration. You can get burrow on your roaches long before the terran player gets a raven and its likely he will only have 1 scan to spare at any given moment (if that). With burrow regen of weaker roaches, combined with popping out of burrow to get maximum damage, I think we would be seeing different results.
Only Terran can 1A, remember?
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terran have scan, he doesnt need rave to kill burrowed roaches, remember?
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This was an interesting post and it is even linked from the wiki Roach page, but, given the increase of range of roaches, a new test should be done to reflect their new effectiveness.
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On September 01 2010 15:43 kNyTTyM wrote:
fucking kidding me? 12 zerglings lose to a thor?
That is the most retarded thing I have ever heard. No single unit should be able to kill 12 zerglings.
Keep in mind 12 Zerglings are only 300 minerals compared to 300/200 for a Thor along with tech tree requirements.
An important note I'd like to add is that a Thor heavily benefits from getting +2 upgrades against Zerg, upping the ground attack from 30 to 36 and the air attack from 12x4 (48) to 16x4 (64).
Once upgraded, it can one-shot a Zergling with 0 or +1 armor using just one attack on its weapon, allowing it to kill two Zerglings per attack.
Against Mutas with 0 armor it will also require only two air volleys to kill them.
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Let's see some re-testing with path 1.1.2
Only request I have is that if you're going to include stim and combat shield for marines, do a test run where you do speed roaches vs stim and combat shield marines. Similar gas investment for upgrades and all.
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hmmm, i´m really feeling that marines are just a bit too usefull right now. i mean, if you compare them to bw, they got buffed like hell.
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I think roaches are indeed more useful against rines now with the 4 roach range, particularly with speedlings. I've been cutting back on mutas (only 8 at a time for contain/harass), and getting a ton more roach/bling/ling and using this army composition. Mutas help take away some of the thor DPS, then you set your speedling surround, aim blings at rines, and then just micro roaches a bit.
Roaches do a ton of damage, just in waves of it so during the cool down you should always move roaches. Speed roaches on creep are particularly effective at chasing because every attack cycle they just do a ton of damage.
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Anyone tested this out again post patch? I'm thinking if you move your roaches right, they extra range will make a great big deal of difference.
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Hey
Verry interesting numbers
Am a bit suprised that marines at one point beat roaches and am not sure how you tested this
where the 16 roaches in a straight line vs 32 marines or where they more grouped
if they where in a strait line the outcome should be equal to the 1 roach vs 2 marines
only when they in a ball or 2 lines behind eachoter a difference occurs when a-moving
well 2 differences basicly and am not sure if thoose have been taken into account
the first difference is that the ai stops moving forward as soon as the target is in range
what this means is that when 2 lines of 8 roaches each attack 2 lines of 16 marines the marines stop aproaching all at range 5 with the first line shooting and the second line unable to shoot
the first line of roaches will move forward to range for enabling them to shoot and also enabling the second line of marines to shoot at the point all units sotp moving and the second line of roaches is not doing damage at all till one roach infron dies and he can move forward
well maybe its a bit less extreme since the 32 marines will maybe be able to stand in 2 line but point is that at a few points during the attack not all roaches might be firering while all marines are
(solution to this is to move the roaches forward to point blank range and then just hold command wich works also pretty good in actual games if you have troubble getting a good concave and find half your units not shooting)
second maybe less important difference is that due to the way all marines damage the first line of roaches a sort of auto focus fire takes place where the marines even if fireing random first focusfire down the first line where the roaches keep doing random damage and focusfire vs non focusfire can give quiete a diference in outcome
Well not sure if this was taken into account and maybe the effects are small but it was just something that was wondering about
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I think the way the units attack also affects the mass numbers game.
for example, if you have 7 roaches all shoot a marine at the same time, its as if some of those roaches "wasted" their shot, where as if all those marines "wasted" their shot, its not as bad, since marines shoot faster/hurt less. With this, you could say that focus firing is actually worse than having each roach attack a separate marine (obviously the best is to have 3 roaches focusing 1 marine at a time).
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Burrowing and then popping up under a mass marine army would be very effective, they wouldn't be prepared. But as your graph says, roaches aren't a viable unit for a head on bioball army, especially if they get marauders. Better off with the banelings~
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This is amazing. This is one combo I hadn't yet run through a combat sim as I just figured the roaches would win hands down. I have a new tweak to my anti-zerg play in mind. 
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On August 28 2010 03:33 sikyon wrote:
Hydras are amazing at anti air and mutas are the best air there is. How much anti air do you need?!?! Air is crazy fragile and the only fast air units are muta/pheonix, of which the pheonix has to rely on energy to deal damage.
You missed the point entirely. Both Hydras and Mutas are Tier 2, meaning that when dealing with air you have to tech switch from whatever you were building before to one of those two fairly slow-tech options. Only Mutas are really mobile of the two.
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I would like to see the Roach/Marine match-up done again, after the 1.1.2. Also, I think there was a flaw in the original test: marines received shields and stim, which made a big difference, but roaches did not get any upgrades of their own. I think that +1 armor would likely swing the battle dramatically in the roaches favor.
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On October 20 2010 20:36 Thezzy wrote:
An important note I'd like to add is that a Thor heavily benefits from getting +2 upgrades against Zerg, upping the ground attack from 30 to 36 and the air attack from 12x4 (48) to 16x4 (64).
Once upgraded, it can one-shot a Zergling with 0 or +1 armor using just one attack on its weapon, allowing it to kill two Zerglings per attack.
This is wrong.
Test it and you will see that the 2nd shot is completely wasted on NOTHING if the Thor kills the ling on the first shot.
That being said, lings dying 1/2 a second earlier still means less damage taken and still makes the thor live significantly longer.
+2 weapons vs +0 or +1 carapace is still a VERY good deal.
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EPT
