|
Shortly before Beta ended, I was in a 2v2 where my teammate claimed that "Mutalisks beat Corruptors". He then flew his mutalisk fleet into an enemy corrputor fleet and died horribly, then the corruptors turned into broodlords and owned us.
Obviously, only a real noob would believe that mutas could beat corruptors, but I have heard a lot of people claim that "X hard-counters Y" without really knowing how good of a counter it is. I decided to go into Unit Tester and bust some myths.
DISCLAIMER: All of the testing was done with Unit Tester, attack-moving two blobs of units into each other. No attempt was made at focus fire or micro unless stated otherwise in the individual test. I disproved several hard-counters, but certain matchups may be very strong soft-counters even though they don't always win 1a2a3a.
Update: Because someone mentioned mutalisks vs thors, I did some tests and found a really awesome way to fight thors with mutas.
Update2: Added battlecruiser and ultralisk testing.
---------
MYTH #1: "Vikings hard-counter Phoenixes": BUSTED
With equal upgrade levels, 1 Phoenix will kill 1 Viking with 20-40 HP remaining. In 1v1, 3v3, 5v5 and 8v8 the Phoenixes win. Granted, Phoenixes are rarely seen in TvP, but they're not all that bad.
---------
MYTH #2: "Vikings hard-counter Corruptors": BUSTED
With no micro, 1 Corruptor and 1 Viking will kill each other simultaneously, they are very evenly matched. In 1v1, 3v3, 5v5, and 8v8 tests the Corruptors usually win, although sometimes the Vikings win. (due to randomness of attack-move targeting)
While it is possible to kite corruptors with vikings, it is not easy. Corruptors have equal acceleration and slightly higher max speed (2.95 vs 2.75). With use of the Corrupt spell, corruptors actually beat vikings 1v1.
If I had a dime for every time a bad terran player lost all their vikings trying to attack a massive Corruptor fleet in 2v2/3v3, I'd be rich. Wait until they transform into broodlords and then you're golden.
---------
MYTH #3: "Hydralisks hard-counter Battlecruisers": BUSTED
A single Battlecruiser (400/300/6) will kill five Hydras (500/250/10), but will lose to six Hydras. On open terrain, you need just over 5 hydras-per-BC to win. If the BCs have terrain advantage, Hydras are nearly useless.
The main reason that Hydras are good against BCs is that a Zerg player should have WAY more bases and resources than a Starport Terran. However, if Terran gets a critical mass of BCs (6+) you really need corruptors - hydras will die and infestors can be focus-fired.
---------
MYTH #4: "Thors hard-counter Ultralisks": BUSTED
Without any upgrades, one Ultra will beat one Thor with ~90 HP left.
With 3/3 upgrades, the Ultra will beat the Thor with ~106 HP left.
If multiple Ultras and multiple Thors are involved (big blobs with no micro), the Thors lose horribly due to splash damage.
Using Strike Cannons on an Ultra will leave him with 1 hp. Shooting him first, then using cannons, will kill him easily. The problem is that after the Thor finishes firing Strike Cannons, there is a REALLY long delay before it can move or fire. This can actually be bad in larger battles. Targeting an Ultra that would have died anyways basically just "self-stuns" your Thor, decreasing overall DPS.
---------
MYTH #5: "Archons hard-counter Mutalisks like in SC1": PLAUSIBLE
Archons will beat Mutas at an approximate 4:1 ratio. Given that 100/300/4 is way less than 400/400/8, and Archons win regardless of micro, I still call it a hard counter. It's just not as good as it was in SC1. Because mutas don't stack as tightly in sc2, you can no longer do 25 damage to 11 mutas in a single shot.
---------
MYTH #6: "You cannot shoot down void rays with Phoenixes": BUSTED
2 Void Rays (500/300/6) vs. 3 Phoenixes (450/300/6) is a close fight, but assuming no Fazing the Phoenixes generally win. Voidrays cannot run away from phoenixes, phoes can easily run away from rays.
---------
MYTH #7: "Mass Queens are insanely cost-effective anti-air":CONFIRMED
Without any micro or Transfusion, 4 queens (600/0/8) can beat:
- 6 Mutas (600/600/12)
- 3 Banshees (450/300/9)
- 3 Voidrays (750/450/9)
Throw in Transfusion and the cost-efficiency of Queens becomes utterly ridiculous. You would have had 2 queens anyways (1 at main and 1 at expo) so 2 extra queens only costs 300/0/4!
---------
MYTH #8: "Mutas die horribly against Thors regardless of your micro": BUSTED
The below tests were done with unupgraded Thors. Obviously, upgraded thors will spank mutas much harder.
I was able to beat 1 Thor with 4 mutas, and this one was very close.
I was able to beat 2 Thors very easily with 7 Mutas.
My best against 3 Thors was 10 Mutas.
My best against 4 Thors was 13 Mutas.
My best against 5 Thors was 16 Mutas.
Note that with pure attack-move, 5 Thors will kill 25 Mutas with 4 thors left standing. With bad clumping, even 30 Mutas will die to 5 thors.
Against 3+ thors, micro will make your mutas nearly TWICE as effective. Better yet, microing against thors is super easy, you don't need to practice for hours like in Broodwar.
1) Order your mutas to Stop, wait for them to spread out naturally.
2) Order your mutas to Move past the thors. Notice how a Move order keeps them spread out, while an Attack Move order causes them to clump.
3) When the frontmost Muta is about to reach the Thors, hit Stop. With deceleration, this will cause your entire muta group to park directly on top of the Thor group, perfectly spread out to avoid splash.
4) Focus fire at will and watch thors explode.
Cost-for-cost, Thors are still a strong counter to Mutas. The best ratio (just over 3-to-1) still represents 300+ gas versus 200 gas. However, a Terran player rarely spends 100% of his gas on Thors. If he's spending gas on Tanks and Thors, and you are only spending gas on Mutas, it is very plausible that you could beat his thors head on.
----------
ADDENDUM: Battlecruisers (This is not a myth)
BCs vs Hydra
- 1 BC will always win against 5 hydras, and always lose against 6 hydras.
- 3 BCs will usually win against 15 hydras, and often lose against 16 hydras. (variable)
A 1 BC : 5 hydra ratio seems fairly constant
- Unburrowing hydras under BCs is not a good idea. The unburrowing animation takes long enough that BCs can actually fire ~2-3 shots before the hydras start shooting.
BC vs Stalker
- 1 BC will always win against 4 stalkers, and always lose against 5 stalkers.
- 3 BCs will usually win against 12 stalkers, and will sometimes lose against 13 stalkers.
This places the BC:Stalker ratio at just over 1:4.
- Unlike Burrow, Blink helps significantly. Blinking 12 stalkers at 3 BCs will win.
BC vs Marine
- Without shield or stim, 1 BC beats 13 marines and loses to 14 marines.
- With shield only, 1 BC beats 11 marines and loses to 12 marines.
- With stim only, 1 BC beats 11 marines and loses to 12 marines.
- With shield+stim, 1 BC beats 10 marines and loses to 11 marines.
- 3 BCs vs marines (with shield+stim) is variable. If the marines get a good concave, as few as 30 marines can kill the BCs. If the marines don't get a great concave, BCs can kill as many as 32 marines.
1 BC : 10 marines with shield+stim is fair.
However, unlike stalkers or hydras, marines have less range than BCs. This means that well positioned BCs can melt marines without taking damage.
----------
ADDENDUM 2: Terran vs. Ultralisks
Several people in this thread asked, what does beat ultralisks?
Ultra vs Marine: Ultra wins
- If the Ultra doesn't have carapace upgrade, you can beat 1 ultra with as few as 7 spread out marines.
- Once carapace upgrade comes into play marines are nearly worthless. It is difficult to win even with 10 stimmed marines versus 1 ultra, beating 2 or 3 ultras takes TONS of marines due to taking splash damage.
- Shoot and scoot doesn't work with marines, because ultras move faster than stimmed marines.
Ultra vs Marauder: Marauder wins, sorta
- Marauders standing their ground vs ultras die pretty quickly. 1 Ultra (300/200/6) can take out 4 Marauders (400/100/8), with or without upgrades and stim. 5 marauders will beat the ultra.
- If marauders are allowed to shoot and scoot, you can win with a 3 Marauder-per-Ultra ratio. (although this is difficult)
- Since an Ultra actually moves faster than a stimmed Marauder, the only reason shoot and scoot wins is that it nullifies the Ultra's attack speed. If the marauders only stop to attack every 1.5 seconds, the ultras can only attack every 1.5 seconds instead of every 0.8.
- I would call this a soft counter. If you have room to maneuver, 300/75/6 can beat 300/200/6. If you don't, 400/100/8 and 300/200/6 are roughly an even trade.
Ultra vs SCV, Reaper, Ghost, Hellion, Viking: Are you kidding?
- No testing was done.
Ultra vs Tanks: Ultra wins, sorta
- Unsieged, 3 siege tanks (450/375/9) can barely kill one Ultra (300/200/6).
- Sieged tanks do VERY badly on a flat plain like Unit Tester. A sieged Tank deals 50 damage every 3 seconds (16.7 DPS) and can't hit an ultra right next to it. Unsieged Tanks deal 25 damage every 1.04 seconds (24 DPS) and can. Despite the range difference, sieged tanks actually do worse. For example, you need 4 spread-out sieged tanks to kill one ultra, and 6 spread-out sieged tanks to kill 2.
- In a real game, your tanks should be behind other units or on cliffs.
- The point remains that if tanks are ever caught out in the open against ultras, they will lose, even if they are already sieged up.
Ultra vs Thors: See above point #4
- I would call thors a VERY soft counter. Oddly, thor's role against ultras is more DPS than tank. 60 damage every 1.5sec is A LOT (over twice a sieged tank) but the slow moving Thor can't avoid taking huge damage from ultra hits. Put some bio in front of the thor and let them kite the ultra around.
Ultra vs Planetary Fortress: Ultra wins
- One unupgraded ultra (300/200/6) vs 1 PF (550/150/0) without repairs, will take the PF down to 410/1500 HP.
- One fully upgraded Ultra will beat a PF with 20 hp remaining.
- Obviously a PF with repairs does better, but two Ultras will kill your SCVs first, then kill the PF.
- Ultras perform as advertised against buildings.
|
Very nice job with this information, #2 and #4 surprised me, but then again I'm a protoss player.
|
with the large print condition "no micro", good job.
yet micro changes everything...
quality check:
varying army size confrontations, equal resources worth of units, mutiple runs to randomize-out approach angles, wrap arounds, etc.
Any equal number of Phoenixes will kill an equal number of Vikings is an extrapolative assumption.
army size matters greatly.
a big ball of vikings vs an equal ball of phoenix means vikings get shots off first and start the fight with an advantage that snowballs up.
just like how 3 zlots r way stronger than 1 zlot against the same resrouce value of lings.
just like how larger terran balls in BW are stronger than compared to smaller terran balls against the proportionally sized enemy army
|
yeah, you have to icro them, like phoenix vs viking it will be more close than that
|
First off, lol @ your teammate who thought mutalisk beat corruptors with base 2 armor. The problem with this is that it only considers the fight is a direct open fight. For example the Ultralisk vs a Thor. Sure, ultralisk beats a Thor in a straight up battle, but as the number increase, the Thors will do much better. Then what if the Ultralisks are fighting in a choke, the Thors would destroy an equal amount of Ultras. However, if the Ultras are able to get a flank, the Ultras would do much better.
You also do not give enough information with these myths. For example, your Battlecruiser fighting Hydralisks is it in an attack move fashion from 1 to another? Without creep? With creep? Do the hydras unburrow under the BC?
|
United Kingdom16710 Posts
not sure any of these were myths in the first place. still a good job but as the poster above said, micro (while you macro as well) changes everything.
|
Thanks for the info!
The queen's one will be helpful ^.^
I'm really glad someone actually went and tested stuff like this
|
I will bet anyone here how ever much u want that i can kill ur 4 queens w/ my 3 voidrays...
|
Very good thread. Would love to see more!
Do speed upgraded void rays pwn vikings for cost?  Been wondering this for a while.
Would be interested in seeing generic anti-air (stalkers, hydralisks, marines) versus all the capital ships. Screwing around in team games it seems like carriers pwn just about anything not specifically meant to counter them (vikings/corrupters/void rays).
|
Awesome! :D
Can you test Collo vs Roach?
|
On July 25 2010 08:10 GenesisX wrote:Awesome! :D Can you test Collo vs Roach?
Oooh that's a good one. I've been hearing/wondering lately that against pure ground compositions you're better off favoring roaches to hydralisks (until you reach such a point that Hydra range will allow more total units to be firing).
Seeing roaches do decently against Collosi would give even more support to this.
|
On July 25 2010 08:02 Lexvink wrote:
First off, lol @ your teammate who thought mutalisk beat corruptors with base 2 armor. The problem with this is that it only considers the fight is a direct open fight. For example the Ultralisk vs a Thor. Sure, ultralisk beats a Thor in a straight up battle, but as the number increase, the Thors will do much better. Then what if the Ultralisks are fighting in a choke, the Thors would destroy an equal amount of Ultras. However, if the Ultras are able to get a flank, the Ultras would do much better.
You also do not give enough information with these myths. For example, your Battlecruiser fighting Hydralisks is it in an attack move fashion from 1 to another? Without creep? With creep? Do the hydras unburrow under the BC?
AFAIK, hard counter means that a unit will counter a unit with or without micro. Soft counter is a unit that beats a unit, but is untrue if the countered unit is microed.
In the post, it mentions it being a hard counter so the units are A- moving.
BTW, equal number of vikings lose to an equal number of phoenixes with or without micro. If the vikings try to kite, the phoenixes just move and shoot making kiting useless. Though first shots can change the outcome of the battle.
|
Vikings win vs Corrupters because Vikings get shots off then retreat behind Turrets in ZvT stalemates...
There is no such myth that vikings hard counter Phoenixes. It is common knowledge Phoenixes win. It is also common knowledge a Phoenix beats the void ray. Considering queens being good as anti-air... obviously it's true, but I guess if you wanted to do the tests.
The ONLY result I'm surprised by is Ultra vs Thor. Very interesting.
On July 25 2010 08:13 Calamity wrote:Show nested quote +On July 25 2010 08:02 Lexvink wrote:
First off, lol @ your teammate who thought mutalisk beat corruptors with base 2 armor. The problem with this is that it only considers the fight is a direct open fight. For example the Ultralisk vs a Thor. Sure, ultralisk beats a Thor in a straight up battle, but as the number increase, the Thors will do much better. Then what if the Ultralisks are fighting in a choke, the Thors would destroy an equal amount of Ultras. However, if the Ultras are able to get a flank, the Ultras would do much better.
You also do not give enough information with these myths. For example, your Battlecruiser fighting Hydralisks is it in an attack move fashion from 1 to another? Without creep? With creep? Do the hydras unburrow under the BC? AFAIK, hard counter means that a unit will counter a unit with or without micro. Soft counter is a unit that beats a unit, but is untrue if the countered unit is microed. In the post, it says hard counter so these are in condition with A-move. BTW, equal number of vikings lose to an equal number of phoenixes with or without micro. If the vikings try to kite, the phoenixes just move and shoot making kiting useless. Though first shots can change the outcome of the battle.
I don't know where you heard these definitions of hard and soft counter but you're wrong...
|
@#7, I LOVE QUEENS
I'll often sacrifice a normally timed lair for a faster expo/bigger army, and pump queens to hold off air, plus theyre even more effective with roaches thanks to transfuse, and CREEP EVERYWHERE XD
great super helpful post, vikings really aren't as good as people say i guess!
You should really do a test of the effectiveness of ultras, because I find them fairly viable, if your enemies don't get massive amounts of air/immortals... Some people complain about them being weak to seige tanks, but thats kind of ridiculous since ultras do 40 dmg per hit, hit relatively quickly, deal splash, and if you get armor it takes ~12 seige tank shots to kill a single one.
|
On July 25 2010 07:51 Piousflea wrote:+ Show Spoiler +
Shortly before Beta ended, I was in a 2v2 where my teammate claimed that "Mutalisks beat Corruptors". He then flew his mutalisk fleet into an enemy corrputor fleet and died horribly, then the corruptors turned into broodlords and owned us.
Now that beta is down, I did some testing with UnitTester to look into some specific unit matchups:
---------
MYTH #1: "Vikings hard-counter Phoenixes": BUSTED
With equal upgrade levels, 1 Phoenix will kill 1 Viking with 20-40 HP remaining. Any equal number of Phoenixes will kill an equal number of Vikings. Granted, Phoenixes are almost never seen in TvP.
---------
MYTH #2: "Vikings hard-counter Corruptors": BUSTED
With no micro, 1 Corruptor and 1 Viking will kill each other simultaneously, they are very evenly matched. While it is possible to kite corruptors with vikings, it is not easy. Corruptors have equal acceleration and slightly higher max speed (2.95 vs 2.75). With use of the Corrupt spell, corruptors actually beat vikings 1v1.
If I had a dime for every time a bad terran player lost all their vikings trying to attack a massive Corruptor fleet in 2v2/3v3, I'd be rich. Wait until they transform into broodlords and then you're golden.
---------
MYTH #3: "Hydralisks hard-counter Battlecruisers": BUSTED
A single Battlecruiser (400/300/6) will kill five Hydras (500/250/10). Hydras are only effective against BCs because a ground Zerg will vastly outmacro an air Terran. Against a very large BC fleet you absolutely need corruptors.
---------
MYTH #4: "Thors hard-counter Ultralisks": BUSTED
Without any upgrades, one Ultra will beat one Thor with ~90 HP left. If the Thor uses Strike Cannons, it will kill the Ultra with 10 HP left.
With 3/3 upgrades, the Ultra will beat the Thor with ~106 HP left. If the Thor uses Strike Cannons, the Ultra wins with 1 HP left.
If multiple Ultras and multiple Thors are involved, the Thors lose horribly due to splash damage, regardless of Cannon usage.
---------
MYTH #5: "Archons hard-counter Mutalisks like in SC1": PLAUSIBLE
Archons will beat Mutas at an approximate 4:1 ratio. While this is definitely a favorable ratio (100/300/4 vs 400/400/8) it doesn't quite match up to SC1. Because mutas don't stack as tightly in sc2, you can no longer do 25 damage to 11 mutas in a single shot.
---------
MYTH #6: "You cannot shoot down void rays with Phoenixes": BUSTED
2 Void Rays (500/300/6) vs. 3 Phoenixes (450/300/6) is a close fight, but assuming no Fazing the Phoenixes generally win. Voidrays cannot run away from phoenixes, phoes can easily run away from rays.
---------
MYTH #7: "Mass Queens are insanely cost-effective anti-air":CONFIRMED
Without any micro or Transfusion, 4 queens (600/0/8) can beat:
- 6 Mutas (600/600/12)
- 3 Banshees (450/300/9)
- 3 Voidrays (750/450/9)
Throw in Transfusion and the cost-efficiency of Queens becomes utterly ridiculous. You would have had 2 queens anyways (1 at main and 1 at expo) so 2 extra queens only costs 300/0/4!
Phoenix are seen in PvT plenty, they bop tanks fosho
Ultras destroy all ground armored units lol, strike cannons barely kill them i'm sure but its when you engage in a fight and the ultralisks get stuck around their allied units or enemy front line units that seems to be the reason that thors beat ultras.
|
This is really interesting, i'm glad to see people doing hard research for those of us who don't have the immediate time.
|
On July 25 2010 07:51 Piousflea wrote:
---------
MYTH #4: "Thors hard-counter Ultralisks": BUSTED
Without any upgrades, one Ultra will beat one Thor with ~90 HP left. If the Thor uses Strike Cannons, it will kill the Ultra with 10 HP left.
With 3/3 upgrades, the Ultra will beat the Thor with ~106 HP left. If the Thor uses Strike Cannons, the Ultra wins with 1 HP left.
If multiple Ultras and multiple Thors are involved, the Thors lose horribly due to splash damage, regardless of Cannon usage.
Throw in any of the 100 chokes, units in way, buildings in the way, minerals in the way and the ultralisks will lose hard. Though I guess it is usefull to know that in an open map ultralisks can kill thors, now just spam Blizzard to make more open maps...
Thanks for all the information though
|
On July 25 2010 08:14 FabledIntegral wrote:Vikings win vs Corrupters because Vikings get shots off then retreat behind Turrets in ZvT stalemates... There is no such myth that vikings hard counter Phoenixes. It is common knowledge Phoenixes win. It is also common knowledge a Phoenix beats the void ray. Considering queens being good as anti-air... obviously it's true, but I guess if you wanted to do the tests. The ONLY result I'm surprised by is Ultra vs Thor. Very interesting. Show nested quote +On July 25 2010 08:13 Calamity wrote:On July 25 2010 08:02 Lexvink wrote:
First off, lol @ your teammate who thought mutalisk beat corruptors with base 2 armor. The problem with this is that it only considers the fight is a direct open fight. For example the Ultralisk vs a Thor. Sure, ultralisk beats a Thor in a straight up battle, but as the number increase, the Thors will do much better. Then what if the Ultralisks are fighting in a choke, the Thors would destroy an equal amount of Ultras. However, if the Ultras are able to get a flank, the Ultras would do much better.
You also do not give enough information with these myths. For example, your Battlecruiser fighting Hydralisks is it in an attack move fashion from 1 to another? Without creep? With creep? Do the hydras unburrow under the BC? AFAIK, hard counter means that a unit will counter a unit with or without micro. Soft counter is a unit that beats a unit, but is untrue if the countered unit is microed. In the post, it says hard counter so these are in condition with A-move. BTW, equal number of vikings lose to an equal number of phoenixes with or without micro. If the vikings try to kite, the phoenixes just move and shoot making kiting useless. Though first shots can change the outcome of the battle. I don't know where you heard these definitions of hard and soft counter but you're wrong...
Then please tell me the definitions instead of telling me I'm wrong. I said AFAIK and it just means I've been misinformed 
|
On July 25 2010 08:18 eivind wrote:Show nested quote +On July 25 2010 07:51 Piousflea wrote:
---------
MYTH #4: "Thors hard-counter Ultralisks": BUSTED
Without any upgrades, one Ultra will beat one Thor with ~90 HP left. If the Thor uses Strike Cannons, it will kill the Ultra with 10 HP left.
With 3/3 upgrades, the Ultra will beat the Thor with ~106 HP left. If the Thor uses Strike Cannons, the Ultra wins with 1 HP left.
If multiple Ultras and multiple Thors are involved, the Thors lose horribly due to splash damage, regardless of Cannon usage.
Throw in any of the 100 chokes, units in way, buildings in the way, minerals in the way and the ultralisks will lose hard. Though I guess it is useful to know that in an ideal word ultralisks can kill thors.
If you time your attacks well and have good creep coverage, you can usually pull off a nice offensive vs mech terran(where you see thors the most, since your facts aren't only pumping tanks) when the super immobile mech army is finally required to move out, and you can get a nice surround. Plus, mind control on the thors for bonus points 
|
Does the phoenix vs. viking advantage scale? I don't think so considering range + resource advantage will tilt the advantage towards the vikings.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
